Feminists have penis envy!

[curlykate]

Damnit, they've figured me out! All I've ever wanted in life was a penis.

:doh:

[HOTW]

Women don't have penis envy -men do, thay always worry about the size of their equipment!! I call it the Magic Mushroom, the Turtle, I have all sorts of words for that funny looking appendage!! I have never met a man who doesnt worry if someone has a bigger penis than they do and whether theirs is adequate...gee if women worried so much about their vaginas we'd never have sex!!

[Handmaiden of Dog]

It's not feminists with penis envy who are the problem, it is fossilized conservatives who are myopic and unimaginative. They need only sit down and use their brains for a few minutes to see the point of equality of opportunity for women.

My grandmother's spouse died young leaving her with 6 children. She found work in a bicycle factory but the oldest son had to quit school and get a job because it didn't pay very well as it was untrained labor. She was a teacher before she married but I guess going back to the classroom was out of the question.

On the other hand I know a woman who did go back to teaching after the husband was laid off 2 years ago. He hasn't found a job yet. Fortunately the wife was able to get a full time position. Thank goodness she makes the same as a male teacher and thank goodness the schools employ married women. No, make that thank the feminists.

Finally on the value of homemakers. I'm a homemaker, my mother was a homemaker, and her mother before her, etc. But we have also worked full time because life happens and emergencies arise. Unfortunately homemakers are not paid nor can they retire. I just realized that my fundie father-in-law, who took early retirement, has been retired for 18 years! and he is not yet 70. For 18 years he has done fuck-all except some lawn mowing and some grandchild babysitting. His wife continues to do all the housework and all the cooking.

[Peas n carrots]

Damnit, they've figured me out! All I've ever wanted in life was a penis.

:doh:

Since about the age of 16 that has been on the top 10 list of things I want, though placement on the list is dependent on hormones and the amount of time in between shags.

[pixydust]

I figure with the bacon bra I can have as many penises as I want 8-)

Men do love bacon!

[holothuroidea]

Since about the age of 16 that has been on the top 10 list of things I want, though placement on the list is dependent on hormones and the amount of time in between shags.

:D :D :D

[Elle]

I have a penis. It's attached to my husband who is at work today. It's quite an enviable one too, so I've got no envy. Well, actually being able to pee standing up without getting it on my legs when a toilet isn't convenient would be nice instead of having to squat. But otherwise, nope. I don't care. I don't have a penis on my body, but I got to be pregnant and feel our baby squirm around long before her daddy could, and I got to give birth. I'd rather have that than to have a third leg and couple balls hanging around sweaty and uncomfortable between my legs on a hot summer's day.

[Elle]

I don't think that penis envy is a woman wanting to have a penis. IIRC, it is the psychological effects of a very young girl realising that boys have penises and she does not and therefore feeling that she has been castrated.

I remember being 5 and a friend of mine finding out boys have penises and started freaking out that they had some awful problem down there. Quite the opposite of feeling castrated!

[StarrieEyedKat]

Who started this myth that all feminists look down on "homemakers?" I'm a feminist. I'm also a SAHM and most of the people I encounter are supportive of that. I'm frustrated with these people's deliberate misunderstanding of certain things.

[Hane]

Nah, I've never wanted one of those things. And my existing equipment is a lot more fun and so much more versatile. they're welcome to those delicate, injury-prone, embarrassing, uncomfortable pieces of kit.

Penis envy--not here, thanks!

When I was little, living in the same house with a boy cousin my age, I was always afraid that he'd hurt himself by getting his penis caught in the zipper of his fly. I used to think a penis was nothing more than a troublesome wad of skin.

And yeah on the Freud-projecting-his-penis/vagina-issues-onto-others.

[Elle]

The role of homemaker has been completely undervalued here, and I do think that is to our detriment.

I think more people are finally starting to realize that being a homemaker isn't worthless and that it's full-time work. We don't get days off when we're sick unless our working-significant-others can take time off for sick family. Not every employer gives paid-family-sick-time. I only found out such a thing existed when I was so sick a week ago from this abscess I've got that my husband had to stay home, and I didn't know how much vacation he had left, and he told me he has paid-family-sick-time, specifically to take care of sick family. Not every employee gets paid vacation at all, and for those who do, not everyone can use it without advanced notice. So homemakers getting a down-day when sick is subject to someone else's employer. When I had emergency surgery a couple years ago that required a few months of recovery time, if I had been working outside the home, I would have qualified for short-term disability so that nothing would have changed (presumably if I had been working, we would already have child care lined up, and receiving disability would have paid that so I could recover and rest). But since I was/am a homemaker primarily, my husband had three weeks left for the year of Paid Family Leave (thank you, California, for requiring that the six weeks of Family Medical Leave be paid) after using three when our daughter was born that he could use to stay home, and enough vacation to supplement it (it's paid at about 65% of your regular income, tax-free at the state level, though taxable at federal). That meant I was in awful pain for a couple months after he had to go back to work for the three days a week that he and his mom both had to work. She spent her days off with me. Homemakers don't qualify for any help like short-term disability because the monetary value of our work is nothing. Unless lucky, we work every day we're sick.

Most homemakers are working seven days a week, sick or well. We're on the clock every second our kid are awake, and don't get scheduled breaks, and whether we can pee in peace is dependent on the kids not knocking on the door.

We don't get paid for doing one of the most time-intensive jobs in the world, but what we do isn't worthless, and I think more people are realizing this now.

I have been angry for quite a while at how much we're told to show respect and appreciation to the paid babysitters and nannies of children, and for teachers and others who spend time with out kids, people who are PAID to, yet when we spend 24/7 with our children and educate them ourselves (even if you send your kids to schools, until then you're the educator), and even though we're getting more respect, there are still plenty of people who discount what we do for free, what we sacrifice to do instead of getting paid.

When it's said that fundy girls ONLY get to be homemakers, it's not meant as "they're only homemakers," like homemaking is no big deal. What's mean is they ONLY get to be one thing and are left too uneducated to have options. I don't think anyone on this forum things homemaking is easy and the equivalent to eating bonbons all day. I think everyone here know homemakers are some of the hardest workers there are. We see fundies looking permanently tired after just a couple years of being a stay-at-home mom. Many of us are there ourselves or can appreciate our foremothers who were broken down and tired after doing it for a lifetime with no end in sight (sometimes while the men retired and spent their days lazing about after "a lifetime of haaaaard work").

[holothuroidea]

Elle, when I said "here" I meant in the United States, not on FreeJinger.

[Elle]

Who started this myth that all feminists look down on "homemakers?" I'm a feminist. I'm also a SAHM and most of the people I encounter are supportive of that. I'm frustrated with these people's deliberate misunderstanding of certain things.

In the earlier days of the feminist movement, women who stayed at home were chided as setting a submissive example to daughters instead of exercising the CHOICE to work. It was common to overlook how for many women, staying home wasn't something they felt they had to do, but something they actually chose to do. Easier to say that at-home moms were setting a bad example staying at home back when prices of everything was still set on the presumption that most households had only one income. Nowadays everything is priced on the presumption that most households have at least two incomes. More money in the household is taken to mean more money available to pay for housing and food and everything. Who cares about paying for childcare to get that second income....

Nowadays it's often harder to be a stay-at-home mom, and those without kids are expected to be working or going to school or doing something other than keeping home. But I think fewer people are looking down on at-home moms, though we still do have a problem with homemakers with kids being looked down on because the value of the work we do is $0, and so therefore worthless.

I think our society needs to stop placing value on the work people do based on the income. The work athletes do is not more valuable than an executive at a small company just because they make seven figures while that exec might, if lucky, break six figures. That exec at that small company isn't automatically doing more valuable work than a teacher who makes $30k a year or an at-home parent who makes $0. If anything, the most important jobs in our society tend to pay the least (it's no wonder we don't have many people becoming social workers - the pay is paltry!), and so society tends to not assign much value to these jobs. So it's more than just feminists who are thought to look down on homemakers. It's society in general, but I think that's starting to change as more people are becoming aware of how much work we really do.

[Elle]

You're right. "Role" was not the right word to use. I think I just hear it so often I used it without thinking. :oops:

I think that part of the problem is that the work is associated with women, and women are inferior, therefore the work they do is inferior. Christian Patriarchy is the opposite of helpful for getting rid of that idea. And besides that, home making is not exclusively the job of women and has been only since the industrial revolution, which is to say fairly recently.

I'm hearing more and more often people, men as well as women, envying those families who are able to have one parent at home raising the children instead of relying on expensive child care. Too bad our society and prices for things are still set based on two incomes in each household, and too bad the value assigned to at-home parenting is the income potential of $0 instead of looking at the money saved on childcare.

Christian Patriarchy definitely undervalues the work women does, but I'm personally seeing societal changes starting to value what at-home parents do for their families and children. In a deviation from women being undervalued, stay-at-home DADS are valued even less than stay-at-home moms and are more likely to be shamed for "making" a woman support his "lazy" ass. At-home moms aren't seen as lazy, even in patriarchal circles, for the household work they do, though the work isn't always valued, but dads who stay home are seen as lazy. There is still a problem with at-home parents not being valued, but in general that is changing.

[Witsec7]

In the earlier days of the feminist movement, women who stayed at home were chided as setting a submissive example to daughters instead of exercising the CHOICE to work

I don't know how you actually date the 'early days'. But many woman didn't have choices. I'm not that old and even for my age group it was assumed a woman would stay home and raise here children while her husband worked outside the home. I saw some very distinct changes post 1969. But in 1985 when I had my child, chose to work outside the home with a SAHD folks still weren't very excepting.

[alba]

Who started this myth that all feminists look down on "homemakers?" I'm a feminist. I'm also a SAHM and most of the people I encounter are supportive of that. I'm frustrated with these people's deliberate misunderstanding of certain things.

I think it's partly a backlash against doing what's "expected" of women, and partly internalised misogyny, which I think goes hand-in-hand with the former. I see it a bit like the teenage (female) feminist who won't wear pink and refuses to learn to cook. She's rejecting what's expected of her, but in doing so also assigns a lesser worth to those things. Later, she grows up and realises that feminism means she can wear whatever colours she *likes* and that learning to cook is a valuable life skill regardless of gender.

This devaluing of traditionally "feminine" traits or roles is evidence in other spheres, where homemaking is considered "women's work" and thus less valuable than "men's work". Therefore you get the paradox of women who have internalised this idea that "women's work" is inferior and at the same time are trying to rebel against what's expected of them, so refuse to do the "feminine" thing.

I think the other aspect of it is that society as a whole is never happy with what women do. A woman who stays at home is an embarrassment to feminism, a working mother is overly ambitious and heartless, and a woman who chooses not to have children is unfeminine and in denial. A lot of this criticism comes from other women, too; I think in many ways we're conditioned to tear each other down because women "should" be competing for male approval. I've heard so many women make statements like "I prefer to hang out with men. Women are so catty". The women being catty plays into the patriarchy, but so too does other women's rejection of them and branding all women with the same criticism.

I don't think it's a uniquely feminist thing, though. In fact, the women I know who self-identify as feminists are more likely to support a woman's right to choose in this matter than those who don't, which I think goes back to the internalised misogyny thing. Feminists as a group are more likely to have considered gender prejudices and acknowledge the devaluing of femininity in a way that does not force women to conform to a single definition. Others have accepted the idea that women have the right to work outside the home without also rejecting the internalised misogyny that says working inside the home is inferior. I think, however, that because the "women should be able to work outside the home" thing is associated with feminism, the rejection of SAHMs is also associated with feminism.

[kpmom]

Women don't have penis envy -men do, thay always worry about the size of their equipment!! I call it the Magic Mushroom, the Turtle, I have all sorts of words for that funny looking appendage!! I have never met a man who doesnt worry if someone has a bigger penis than they do and whether theirs is adequate...gee if women worried so much about their vaginas we'd never have sex!!

Ain't that the truth. Even men's figurative language invariably involves a penis and/or testicles; i.e., He doesn't have the balls to do that, I'd like to cut his balls off, she's a ball buster, how's it hangin'?, it took some huge balls to do that, and on and on.

It isn't women who are envious or obsessed.

[ilovetchotchkes]

The only reason I would ever envy a penis is if (more like when) I'm hiking and I need to go to the bathroom. Havving the ability to pee standing would be so much easier! Aside from that particular situation, penis envy is pretty stupid.

THIS THIS THIS.

Seriously , i don't WANT one. At least my excitement at seeing something sexually exciting can easily be hidden. And I can't imagine being my husband. We call our male dog "cock knocker" because he's short (corgi) and is JUST the right height when he jumps on you (we've tried to train it out of him believe us but when my husband and FIL walk in the door, all bets are off) to hit a very very very sensitive part of the male anatomy and render him on the floor, in pain.

[fundifugee]

Personally; I think it's the reverse with misogynists. They know women can be able to get pregnant; whereas men can. So they fear women because they think that women will try and take over men because they can have babies; and they can't; and that somehow women'll use this to control men. So they want to put women in their place so that they can't control men. :roll: I'm tired of the penis envy argument; anyway. Isn't that so 1950's?

It is my theory, after spending WAY to much time in my formative years stuck in church, that this entire religion is based on uterus envy.

Seriously, in the Old Testament, requiring regularly-scheduled blood sacrifices set the stage. Then you get one whopping big blood sacrifice in the New Testament, together with the language surrounding being "born again", "washed in the blood", etc. It is all a bunch of men who are scared and envious of uteruses, so they invent their own ritual periodic blood cleansing and their own male-associated birth imagery and capacity to make up for their obvious physical disadvantage.

[treemom]

For those who want to stand to pee, might I recommend the she wee? I have bought one for kilimanjaro

[desertvixen]

When it's said that fundy girls ONLY get to be homemakers, it's not meant as "they're only homemakers," like homemaking is no big deal. What's mean is they ONLY get to be one thing and are left too uneducated to have options. I don't think anyone on this forum things homemaking is easy and the equivalent to eating bonbons all day. I think everyone here know homemakers are some of the hardest workers there are. We see fundies looking permanently tired after just a couple years of being a stay-at-home mom. Many of us are there ourselves or can appreciate our foremothers who were broken down and tired after doing it for a lifetime with no end in sight (sometimes while the men retired and spent their days lazing about after "a lifetime of haaaaard work").

I'd agree with this. As a single mom, I definitely appreciate the value of housework. I do feel bad for the women who don't have other options because homemaking is the only thing they have ever been trained to do, but that's because they've been limited.

I do get irritable at the fundie moms who talk about how much work parenting their large family is when they have their older daughters enslaved.

[LynnKaboom]

Other than thinking vaginas look kind of weird in general, and the two weeks after I saw Teeth where I was terrified of it, I'm pretty OK with my own. Unless I'm having a particularly painful cycle. Then I don't like it so much.

But overall? I've never really felt the need to have a penis. Maybe I'm weird.

[ADoyle90815]

I don't want a penis, since there are things we women can get to allow us to pee standing up when it's more convenient. The other issue is that at least with a vagina, nobody can tell if I'm excited about something or thinking about sex the way it's often obvious with a penis. As someone who also does martial arts, while I don't have to wear a cup, there is such a thing as groin protection for women which can be easily worn without needing a jock strap.

[Elle]

I don't know how you actually date the 'early days'. But many woman didn't have choices. I'm not that old and even for my age group it was assumed a woman would stay home and raise here children while her husband worked outside the home. I saw some very distinct changes post 1969. But in 1985 when I had my child, chose to work outside the home with a SAHD folks still weren't very excepting.

Being expected to stay home doesn't mean that it wasn't allowed. It wasn't that long ago that it was nearly illegal for women to work if they were married unless you were so damned poor that no one cared. For middle class families, there weren't jobs that would hire married middle-class women. It used to be legal to discriminate on marital status or sex. Post WWII, companies fired the women who'd worked while their husbands were at was, and it was legal to do this. When women and marital status became protected, then working while a married mother was a choice. This doesn't mean society saw it favorably or that there wasn't a heavy expectation in general for married mothers to stay home, but it was still an option.

[Minerva]

Pfft why would I want a penis when I have a clitoris? Clits are so much nicer to have. I've always thought penises were kind of cool, but I've never had a pathological envy of them.

Besides, what about feminists who have penises? Where do they fit into this worldview?