"Catholic's aren't Christian"

[GenerationCedarchip]

I've been hearing things like this all my life. Oddly enough, the really strong messages about Catholics not being REAL christians came at school - there were lots of Baptist kids and teachers around. In the fundie church where I grew up, the teaching was more that Catholics were Christian but that they interpreted the Bible wrong and did a lot of things that were outside of what the Bible taught (venerating saints, papal authority, etc...).

[morfydd]

I think early Americans weren't over it yet (it was slightly more recent for them!) and that they did fear Rome trying to extend control to America.

Um, as a note, Maryland was explicitly founded as a Catholic colony and was one of the original states. So not all of early America was anti-Catholic. :)

Between the hard-core Protestants of, say, Massachusetts, and the Catholics of Maryland, and all the other variants in the states, the founders were very very aware of the need to keep religion as far away from their new little government as possible. It's a shame the people who say they revere said founders don't know enough history to know that.

[homeschoolmomma1]

To be honest- if it wasn't for Peter and Paul (mostly Paul) walking around evangelizing the Christian (AKA Catholic) faith at the time would have died out. I love how people ignore that if it wasn't for the first missionaries THEY WOULD NOT BE AROUND! Sorry but it is so ignorant (I hate that word) to think that way.

The first Christians accepted Jesus as "their Lord and personal Savior" long before all the splinter religions came around.

On a side not there is a book series called Surprised by Truth http://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Truth-Converts-Biblical-Historical/dp/0964261081 Where people who were different religions converted because they realized that historically the Catholic faith was the first one

Problems in the church or not- still the first Christian religion and EVERY faith has skeletons in the closet (AKA the who priest thing- that is a different topic all together)

[3 is enough]

@Eclipse: I did grow up in Quebec, so maybe that was why I never faced any anti-Catholic sentiment. Heck, the Anglos in Quebec even had a choice to send their kids to the English Catholic or English Protestant public schools! (Not anymore, now the schools are divided along linguistic lines, and only people who went to English school in Quebec themselves can send their kids to the English system).

Does Canada even have a Bible Belt? I wasn't aware of it.

But I do know a lot of Irish immigrants like my great grandparents went to Montreal because it was very Catholic.

[maybeizfundie]

Pet peeve with my fellow fundies.

1. It just isn't true.

2. They base their arguments on things that are either crazy or outright lies.

Jack Chick tracts are some of the worst. Total nonsense.

After our cult sojourn, my parents and the rest of my siblings went Catholic. We have some pretty major doctrinal differences, but in the end, we're all Christian, holding the same basic and most important tenets of the faith, and there's no question about that.

[anniebgood]

Well, speaking as an agnostic who has spent a lot of time around Catholics:

"Christians" aren't necessarily Catholic. There is only one "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" and if you ain't in it, you are out of it.

And that "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" many Protestant groups claim to have? Pure revisionist, individualist narcissism. "Protest" all you like, Protestants, but you're all sinners! :twisted:

When we say the Creed in our Lutheran church we say the one holy catholic, **small c meaning universal** church. We're in it, we believe it and claim it daily. :

The small catechism says:

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but

the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the

true faith.

In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps

it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

In this Christian church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers.

On the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ.

This is most certainly true.

So we're all in this together. Too bad the Baptists, when they get to heaven won't be able to come into the door marked Lutherans, because you know we know we're pretty sure we're the only ones there......LOL> :lol:

[lizzy]

Catholics are the "whores of Babylon" don't you know?

Seriously, though, whenever people say Catholics aren't Christian, I always point them to this:

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb4.htm

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," "Pentecostal Gospel." "Holiness Church," "Pilgrim Holiness Church," "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

[nolongerIFBx]

Um, as a note, Maryland was explicitly founded as a Catholic colony and was one of the original states. So not all of early America was anti-Catholic. :)

You are very correct, but one reason it was founded as a Catholic colony was because they were unwelcome in some of the colonies established earlier than Maryland was. Hope that clarifies what I meant by "early Americans".

[Nothing2CHere]

When we say the Creed in our Lutheran church we say the one holy catholic, **small c meaning universal** church. We're in it, we believe it and claim it daily. :

The small catechism says:

So we're all in this together. Too bad the Baptists, when they get to heaven won't be able to come into the door marked Lutherans, because you know we know we're pretty sure we're the only ones there......LOL> :lol:

In the Catholic Nicene Creed, the line is "one holy catholic (little "c") apostolic church." I specifically remember being taught in my religion classes that it was a little c because it didn't mean the Catholic religion, but catholic as in "universal," the word's initial meaning before it became the name of the religion. I also remember reading later on that Catholics became known as Catholics because the word catholic was often used in early church writings to describe this new Christian belief.

[Nothing2CHere]

A Campus Crusader told me that in college too! She was pretending that she had to take a survey for a class and was stopping people to stealth evangelize. She asked what religion I was and when I said I was Catholic she said, "Oh, um, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but are you aware that all Catholics are going to hell?"

You just reminded me of a funny - well, funny/sad - college story. One of my friends at college, who also happened to be Catholic, was involved with our school's Fellowship of Christian Athletes organization. Which, fine, the non-Catholic Christians in the club didn't seem to have a problem with it, until the end of the year when it was time to elect new officers for the next school year and he decided to run. It caused such a rift in the club, between those who saw no problem with this Catholic running for office versus those who had the, "But, but, he's CATHOLIC!" attitude, that the club ended up essentially imploding and dissolved. A year or two later, a new social club for the campus Christians did re-emerge with a new name, but yep, it was my Catholic friend who caused the original group's demise. All because he wanted to be an officer.

[jesusfreak]

Oh yeah and they are "not Protestants"; they are "just Christians".

How special.

[misslady]

What is funny is that I don't think that Jesus was ever a Christian. I need to read up more but I think he died as a practicing Jewish man.

Can't resist:

Abe has a job that takes him all over the country. One day he has difficulty finding a synagogue in one of the towns, so figuring that G~d is everywhere, he decides to go into a local Church to worship.

He takes out his Tallis, puts on his yarmulke and dresses himself, and proceeds to pray.

The Priest comes in and wants to start the Services. However having heard the whispers from some of his congregants, he stands up and says, “Will all non-Catholics please leave.â€

Abe goes right on davening.

Next request, again, “Will all non-Catholics please leave.â€

Nobody moves. Nobody responds.

Finally, the Priest gets up and says, “Will ALL JEWS please leave!â€

At this Abe gets up, folds his Tallis, and packs it away. He then takes off his yarmulke and puts it away.

Then he goes to the altar, picks up a statue of the baby Jesus, and says these immortal words:

.

.

“Come bubbela, they don’t want us here anymore.â€

ba dum bump.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Back in the day, the KKK hated African Americans, Jews and Catholics. It was only a few years ago that Catholics were allowed to join the KKK.

I wonder if the NON-Thinking Housewife has joined up.

[treemom]

Catholics are the "whores of Babylon" don't you know?

Seriously, though, whenever people say Catholics aren't Christian, I always point them to this:

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb4.htm

Maybe it is just me, but that is just as offensive as the ideas thar catholicism isn't christianity.

[fundiefan]

Jesus wasn't a Christian and while I don't claim biblical knowledge or religious history, I've never heard or read in any form that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.

Any person holding to a particular belief system and making judgement upon another is doing so to make themselves feel superior. The Catholics aren't Christians argument is a fantasy that is perpetuated by people who are not strong enough in their own faith and are threatened by the strong faith and convictions of others.

I have two friends who hold the anti-Catholic position and it really makes me uncomfortable. One is evangelical, although somewhat moderate, at least as far as she relates to other people. The other is - well, I'm not really sure. But, she believes in evolution and is liberal and has issues with a lot of the same things I do as far as religion goes. I think mostly she just continues to attend church to take her elderly mom. They do have a female pastor, though. Anyway, even as liberal as she is in general, she holds some pretty deep, really whacked out beliefs about the Catholics. And I have honestly found myself entirely muted by things that either one of them has said.

I disagree with pretty much everything about the Catholic Church, but they do believe in Christ, right? They do believe in the Holy Trinity; virgin birth; resurrection; salvation - all foundations of Christianity.

[Olivia]

In the fundie church where I grew up, the teaching was more that Catholics were Christian but that they interpreted the Bible wrong and did a lot of things that were outside of what the Bible taught (venerating saints, papal authority, etc...).

That's what I learned in fundie-world too.

Oddly enough, it's my liberal (both religiously and politically) side of the family who dislikes Catholic. Except for the Kennedy family. They're down with them.

[Boogalou]

I am pretty sure that both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox (not sure if this is the right term or not) were the "original" Christian denominations. They equally split from eachother, eastern orthodox did not split from Roman Catholicism.

[treemom]

I am pretty sure that both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox (not sure if this is the right term or not) were the "original" Christian denominations. They equally split from eachother, eastern orthodox did not split from Roman Catholicism.

And well most of the christians sect found in the middle east. Like Copts in Egypt.

[xDreamerx]

LadyPugLover~ As far as I know, Jesus was born, lived, and died a Jewish man, a radical Jewish man, but Jewish nonetheless. Christianity came in the generations after his death. Jesus lived in an apoclyptic age, but the end times did not come in his lifetime or the generations after so the idea became metaphorical or spiritual and the theology of The Second Coming was born.

Someone brought up Foxe's Book of the Martyrs a few pages back. I would quote it but I'd have to go back pages and it boils down to lazy. I always thought Foxe's book talked only of English martyrs since it was popular during the English Reformation. I know the Oxford Martyrs and Carnmer are in it. Are there a great deal more? I've always wanted to read it and will add it to my list. Right now I'm reading Katherine Parr so it will have to wait.

Re Canada's Bible Belt~ I don't think we have one, officially and certainly not in the wide reaching sense that America does but I wonder if Alberta can be considered slightly Bible Belty or kind of fundie. I know they have a strong population of Evangelicals and that young fundie couple that was on The Joyful Helpmeet's channel on YouTube were from Alberta, if my memory is right. Can anyone speak to this? I'm from Southern Ontario so I don't know, but my friend recently moved to Calgary and she said it was much more Protestant and Evangelical. She's Catholic and had trouble finding a church in her area. She couldn't find one and was considering going to Baptist church. I laughed at her. (Not because Baptists are bad, but because of the politics--for lack of a better word--that we're talking about).

My Grandpa was a Baptist but converted to Anglicanism for my Grandma. I think maybe she dug her heels in and refused to marry him otherwise. I'm not 100% sure, but it seems possible. I've never really asked him about growing up Baptist because he's a really reserved type who doesn't talk about himself much or religion. He keeps his cards close to the vest. But maybe one day I will.

[TheSassyOne]

Oh yes, I would say that Jesus was not only Jewish, but a devout Jew; and remember there were no Christian religions at the time of Christ. Someone mentioned Peter and Paul, but we must remember, they were Jewish also. Gentiles who believed Jesus was the Messiah were allowed to take part in Jewish services. Unfortunately later a distinction was made because of various reasons that led to the the division we have today (even though there was an early group that called themselves Christians before this split).

It never fails though, every year I have at least one student who raises a hand and with a confused look asks, "wait, what, you mean, Jesus wasn't Catholic?" I teach Seniors in High School! :angry-screaming: :angry-banghead: That question annoys me only because the year before, they are taught Church History and the year before that, Scripture.