heartsdesire/ Epic COW Talk--Merged

[Georgiana]

This just in: Sarah shows you how NOT to handle a birthing animal in distress!

Now, I will fully admit that I do not have much experience with farm animals and that I take my beloved domestic pets to the vet at the first sign of an issue. However, it seems like they totally neglected this cow and are responsible for the death of the calf along with reckless endangering the mother cow. I'm wondering what FJers with more animal husbandry experience think about this? For quick reference, here is a timeline as she presents it in the blog:

Morning/Afternoon: Labor Begins

Late Afternoon: Calf's hooves are visible

Soon after: "But just a couple of hours later we became concerned, as the labour had not progressed as it should have."

7PM: Brian brings the cow to the barn.

Soon after 7PM: Brian (NOT a trained vet or anyone who has assisted in cow births by Sarah's own admission) ties a rope around the calf's hooves and tried to pull it out of the mother (?!?!)

Midnight: No further progress

3AM: No further progress. Now the decision has been made to call the vet in the morning. Cow has now been in labor for AT LEAST 12 hours.

The Next Morning: Vet confirms the calf is dead. Shocker right there as the calf has been stuck in the birth canal for over 12 hours.

From my experience, you call a vet at the first sign of a birthing animal in distress. Not HAVE YOUR UNTRAINED HUSBAND ATTEMPT TO PULL THE CALF OUT. Really Sarah? I'm not sure who has less brain activity: you or the calf.

[Kitchen Princess]

I think they do pull calves out of cows a lot. I don't know how.

[ladypuglover]

I think they do pull calves out of cows a lot. I don't know how.

I think with a chain but the last time I saw that was over 30 years ago, so I'm not sure.

[Witsec7]

Someone should have stuck their hand up that cow to feel where the head was before the feet dropped. If the head was in a good position I would have pulled. Mind you I'm small and never pulled a calf on my own, but I've pulled, lamas, and goats.

I'm interested in folks opinions on this as well. Nothing like speculating on how to pull a calf for some fast Saturday night action :dance:

[emmiedahl]

I am not an expert on animal husbandry, but I think using brute strength to haul a calf out of the cow might be something that happens a lot. I do think a vet should have been called though.

[Witsec7]

I think with a chain but the last time I saw that was over 30 years ago, so I'm not sure.

Rope and a come along hooked to a tree would be my guess :think: I always kept a come along in the barn.

[CanadianHippie]

I think with a chain but the last time I saw that was over 30 years ago, so I'm not sure.

The last time I saw it was just over 20 years ago and a burlap sack and bare hands were used.

[Koala]

Christ that sounds awful....poor little calf. The mama cow too. Sorry guys. I'm a huge animal lover. Stuff like this just breaks my heart.

edited...meant to say mama cow, not mama calf

[Miss M]

My Gramps used to pull them with a rope and a come-along if they were well stuck or it was a small cow/big calf. Some can be pulled by hand if you are strong enough, by placing your feet against the back end of the cow. However, they should have went in to see where the head was before trying to pull, it the head was back and not forward down the birth canal that would have been the problem right there. Calf would have to be pushed back in somewhat and the head would have to be pulled down, then pull the calf. In my opinion they killed the calf with inexperience and neglecting to call a vet earlier.

Edited to add because I actually read the blog post, the front feet and the nose were out prior to midnight, but two strong grown men (Brian and Sarah's Dad) couldn't manage to pull that calf. Well, there you go! Even a big calf can be pulled if one learns about the proper care of the animals they own and doesn't subscribe to the "we never have had to help one before" theory!

Assholes! They are lucky they didn't lose the cow!

M.

[Georgiana]

The last time I saw it was just over 20 years ago and a burlap sack and bare hands were used.

But I'm sure that whoever did that KNEW what they were doing. My friend had to assist with her goat births pretty regularly, but she observed someone doing it first, then did it with supervision, THEN she started doing it on her own. She didn't just read something, loop some rope around the baby, and then go to town. These are live creatures, and I just feel that the least they deserve is for someone to take their distress seriously. Not use it as trial and error for "What I read on teh internets about cow births". At any rate, when it didn't work, he should have called the vet right then! Not make the poor thing wait another 10-12 hours. That's just cruel. It seems like they totally knew there was something wrong with this birth pretty early and just refused to get professional assistance until it was convenient for them.

[Witsec7]

WoW never knew we had a bunch of calf pullers here :clap:

[WonderingInWA]

So, I don't get it. Can cows not birth on their own? Why the human intervention?

[Witsec7]

So, I don't get it. Can cows not birth on their own? Why the human intervention?

Sometimes they need help if they aren't progressing or the calf is in an odd position. Just like humans, but because calfs are so large you can't really turn them, so sometimes they have to be pulled.

[WonderingInWA]

Sometimes they need help if they aren't progressing or the calf is in an odd position. Just like humans, but because calfs are so large you can't really turn them, so sometimes they have to be pulled.

Ouch. Poor mama cow.

[BelieveinScience]

So, I don't get it. Can cows not birth on their own? Why the human intervention?

No they can and most do. The most common birthing issue, as far as I know, is dystocia and the main cause of that is uneducated people breeding something like a first time hereford heifer( which is a small breed, and heifers in general are more prone to dystocia because they've never given birth before) to a big ass bull like a charlois. Thats why EPDs (expected progeny differences) are crucial when you're buying bulls to breed to your cows/heifers.

This Sara chick is just a dumb ass the second they realized they couldn't pull the calf out they should have called a vet right then and there, period. No waiting until morning. I wonder if they had to use a fetatome kit to get it out.

I feel so bad for the mama cow, though. I've seen mama cows who have lost their babies and its heartbreaking to watch them. I'm 100 percent convinced animals feel the loss of their babies like humans do.

[Witsec7]

Ouch. Poor mama cow.

Based on the timeline, these folks let the cow labor too long without progress and let her fatigue. Its not very good for the calf when you think about the amount of pressure exerted on it This moron waited over 8 hours before attempting to pull the calf. And there was no mention of lubing the old girl. A dairy cow will take about a gallon of lube.

These kinds of assholes should not be breeding stock.

[Conuly]

So, I don't get it. Can cows not birth on their own? Why the human intervention?

I don't know much about cows, but any animal can have trouble giving birth. Some are more likely to have trouble than others. If I had to guess I'd say that domesticated animals in general are more likely to have trouble than wild ones simply because they *can* be helped by humans and so it's not the immediate out-of-the-gene-pool moment it would be in other animals. But I don't know, I'm just speculating.

These kinds of assholes should not be breeding stock.

They shouldn't be owning animals, period. That's a responsibility.

[BelieveinScience]

These kinds of assholes should not be breeding stock.

A-fucking-men.

I wonder if it was a human with the same exact issue if they would have waited until morning.

[longskirtlotsakids]

No they can and most do. The most common birthing issue, as far as I know, is dystocia and the main cause of that is uneducated people breeding something like a first time hereford heifer( which is a small breed, and heifers in general are more prone to dystocia because they've never given birth before) to a big ass bull like a charlois. Thats why EPDs (expected progeny differences) are crucial when you're buying bulls to breed to your cows/heifers.

This Sara chick is just a dumb ass the second they realized they couldn't pull the calf out they should have called a vet right then and there, period. No waiting until morning. I wonder if they had to use a fetatome kit to get it out.

I feel so bad for the mama cow, though. I've seen mama cows who have lost their babies and its heartbreaking to watch them. I'm 100 percent convinced animals feel the loss of their babies like humans do.

Yes, pretty much this. First time calvers are supposed to have a bull with predicted low birthweight calves. But that's just for marketing operations- since this a family farm they probably just used the nearest bull, in which case you wait till the heifer is a little older to breed her.

As far as pulling calves, if the hooves and head are put, yes, pulling to get the shoulders out is really very common. But once in a while you get the odd cow that doesn't dilate or just quits, or the calf that is just really really huge. In that case they generally cut the calf up to get it out and cull the cow. If one leg or a head is down, you pull all damn day and it's not going to come.

Dairy cows are different. They are really roomy and dairy cows are;t bred to be huge like beef cows, so birth is usually easier. Either way, if you only have a few cows, what's the difference at calling the vet at the first sign? Pulling a calf or cutting one out is one of the cheapest things to pay for. Treating a sick cow or trying to save a dying one is what costs the big bucks. And of course losing one is a loss into the thousands.

[Witsec7]

JCMJ I just read the entry. They walked that poor cow out of the barn and left her in the pasture while they went to sleep, after the calf was already presenting.

The abject stupidity and insensitivity and total disregard for their animal. Please tell me they don't have unattended home births with their kids. I'm fucking livid.

:angry-screaming:

[WonderingInWA]

Other than attending both of my own births (no choice there! LOL!), I've never seen another animal give birth. This is super naive, but animal babies aren't born head first?

[emmiedahl]

My grandmother had a farm and I remember her checking on animals several times a night as their due date approached just to be sure they weren't in labor. Once the hooves were showing she was right there the whole time, she probably actually stayed even before that but we are talking about when I was 8 yo and younger. I remember sitting and reading in a corner of the barn while she handled things.

[Witsec7]

First time calvers are supposed to have a bull with predicted low birthweight calves. But that's just for marketing operations- since this a family farm they probably just used the nearest bull, in which case you wait till the heifer is a little older to breed her.

I'm guessing this is where their problems began. Hell I've slept in stalls with stock who were in labor.

[BelieveinScience]

Other than attending both of my own births (no choice there! LOL!), I've never seen another animal give birth. This is super naive, but animal babies aren't born head first?

It depends on the animal. Piglets typically come head first but once in a while they'll come ass first but it really doesn't make a difference in piglets.

Calves come with their front feet first and their head inbetweenthe front feet. I believe lambs are the same way.

[BelieveinScience]

JCMJ I just read the entry. They walked that poor cow out of the barn and left her in the pasture while they went to sleep, after the calf was already presenting.

The abject stupidity and insensitivity and total disregard for their animal. Please tell me they don't have unattended home births with their kids. I'm fucking livid.

:angry-screaming:

WTF? I only skimmed it. On what planet is that even remotely okay?! Idiots.