"The Suitcase" - What do you guys think?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Grrrr. I just posted on another forum, in which a mom was hand-wringing over the fact that some other girls had actually dared to bring an American Girl book on puberty to school and discuss it with her 9 yr old.

My response was simple: my child has precocious puberty, which means that she first showed signs of puberty at age 5 and got her period when she turned 8. It would have been completely irresponsible for me NOT to prepare her. She also told her friends what was happening - because she was blessed with good friends who are supportive, and because she had no reason to see a medical issue in her life as a major secret. And yes, I told my kids how babies are made. If a child of mine is physically able to get pregnant, she better damn well know this stuff.

I never understood the term "innocence". To me, innocent is the opposite of guilty. If you are guilty, it means that you did something wrong. Knowledge is not wrong. Knowledge gives you the information so that you are in a position to choose to do right instead of wrong.

[thetabmeister]

My oldest had just turned 3 when my youngest was born last year, and he had already been talking quite well for some time. He asked about the baby. Kept asking and asking, how it got in, how it got out, if it could go back in. :) I told him that Daddy put a seed in my body and the seed grew into a baby that came out when it was time. He wanted to know how the seed got in, I said through a little hole. Where is the hole? Between my legs. *pointed* How did the baby come out? Through the hole. The baby came out between your legs? Yes. He was satisfied and never asked again. Some may think I shared too much but I don't want my kids to be like me at age EIGHTEEN and still have NO CLUE how a child is formed. :oops:

[AudreyE]

My son is homeschooled, mildly autistic and has a phobia about any topic that involves "inside bodies." For this reason, we didn't have any preconceived notions about when we should talk to him about sex. We waited until he showed the interest in learning more.

Notice that he didn't just hear about sex one day and ask what it was; he had been hearing about it forever, and had some idea what it was, because he lives in America and not in a coma. We just waited to fill in the details until he seemed interested.

That turned out to be 10. My autistic kid, with all his phobias, was ready to learn about sex at 10.

[browngrl]

What is it about fundies (e.g. Pa Morton who only tells his children about sex a few DAYS before their weddings!?!) that makes them think ignorance is a good thing? Why on earth would saying "that is a suitcase thing" be better than an age/maturity level appropriate true explanation?

Wait, I think I know the answer: it is easier to control someone who is kept ignorant.

[ellerigby]

Mr. Fox was not raised fundy, but his parents are extremely uptight about sex. They never told him or his siblings the facts of life. When he was given "the talk" at school in grade six, he was horrified. He and his best friend agreed that they were never going to do THAT. Thankfully, he changed his mind or we wouldn't have three kids. ;) Needless to say, given his upbringing, he's not as comfortable with talking to our kids about sex. He is adamant that our girls learn about body changes and menstruation, though. His poor sister thought she was dying when she got her first period. Yup, my In-laws are pretty fucked up. It's not just fundies that are sexually repressed.

My feminist, liberal mom "forgot" to tell me about periods, so when I got mine shortly after turning 10, it was a bit of a shock, to say the least. She didn't get hers until she was 13 and just didn't think I would get mine so young. I now consider it a pretty funny story. ;)

I knew all a lot about babies and sex, though, since I have a younger brother and was a very inquisitive kid. No "suitcase" subjects in my parents' house. (I think this article is horribly sad, btw.)

Though, when I was about 9, my parents cracked up when I described the hair stylist who used a hair dryer on my hair as doing a "blow job." My dad explained that that wasn't the right term for it, but I didn't understand why it was so funny to them until a few years later. :roll:

[Didi]

I do not get this AT ALL!!! I mean how hard is it to say "God gave mommies a special hole for the baby to come out. Isn't that cool?" I plan to be very open and honest with my kids about everything, but I can understand her not wanting to explain sex - even though I would - but the baby coming out isn't a "mature topic". I mean I would assume by now he knows boys have penises girls have vaginas. It's not that much of a stretch that babies come out of vaginas. :-p

I am fine with explaining things on a kid's level or even avoiding topics at times. But... this is ridiculous to me. Know the facts of life doesn't make you get pregnant or have sex or anything else. This is why so many people go into marriage with shame and stuff because they don't see it as a beautiful thing. I am also sick of fundy guys (guys in general, but more the fundy ones) being offended if I mention my period. Like a 40+yr old married man on facebook wrote me a long reply once when I said I was "having really bad cramps" about how he doesn't need to know this, and it makes him uncomfortable etc etc. I tore him a new one. :-p

[freejoytoo]

The reason people write things like this is because they're scared of being uncomfortable rather than their children being so.

I heard that the Samaritans got founded because a teenage girl committed suicide after starting her periods and thinking she was dying. Just because people are too scared to give children honest information about the facts of life.

[Koala]

it is easier to control someone who is kept ignorant.

***Bingo****

[Cheesemaker]

A quiverfull type on a mom's forum with 10 or so kids just tells her older kids that "mommy has a special door" for the baby to come out of.

[Hane]

The funny thing about my mother's efforts to shield us from the horrible knowledge that we all owned vaginas: When my baby sister was about five or so, she told me that she had an itch and needed some cream for it: "It's not in the urine hole, and it's not in the bowel movement hole--it's in the deep, deep hole in between them."

My middle sister got her period much earlier than my mother and I did, and it was fortunate that she nagged Mom for info about menstruation: she got her first period two weeks later.

[Witsec7]

Check out this comment:

:shock: 11??? For god's sake when does she plan to tell her?? Wonder how old the son is. I get the impression that he's older :?

Gaaaaaaa :angry-screaming: This boys probably getting erections and having wet dreams. These people are clueless.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Also, who is the child development genius who assumed that information is not "age-appropriate" for a child who is obviously old enough to ask the question?

Let me tell you, it's EASIER and MORE APPROPRIATE to have some conversations with younger children.

My girls, who are 3 years apart, got the sex talk at the same time. I had previously tried to have the conversation with the older one, but she was uncomfortable and would put her hands over her ears. The problem wasn't that she was too young - it was that she had already started to hear things in the schoolyard and was therefore aware that this was an icky topic. My younger girl had no such hang-ups. It was just, "oh, good question, how DO babies get in there?"

I never want my kids to get the idea that there are some things too shameful to discuss with me. I want them to be equipped with knowledge, and more than that, I want them to know that they can ask me any question and treat me as the Mommy Fountain of All Knowledge. It turned out that my oldest daughter had picked up that sex involves "gross stuff", but the details were wrong. I want her to know that she can't rely on rumours from friends. I want her to know that there is no secret that she should ever keep from me, no issue that I can't or won't handle.

I also have my doubts about sheltering kids from heavy non-sexual issues.

I know that parents can have legit concerns about how children who are particularly fearful will cope with scary stuff, but there is only so much you can control. On 9/11, my oldest was a toddler. She heard about it at daycare. My kids also go to a school where they learn about the Holocaust. I don't think that a non-traumatic discussion about it can exist, although the school says that they try to be sensitive in their approach. Certainly, when I was growing up, there was no attempt to shield. It was in our faces. Since the parents and grandparents of people I knew were survivors, there was no avoiding it. The thinking was that you don't eliminate evil by ignoring it, but by educating kids and actively discussing moral issues. I'm actually concerned that at the survivors get older and fewer of them are left, there will be more of a tendency to shield kids and not get into the explicit details that we were given.

[Witsec7]

I often wonder what these families actually talk about. We had a dinner table and used it. No I did not shelter my DD, she heard adult conversations, when she was old enough to ask questions she did and got answers. We talked politics, religion, sex, entertainment, weather,art, music, current events. Its like these uber xtians must guard every word that comes out of their mouths.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I often wonder what these families actually talk about. We had a dinner table and used it. No I did not shelter my DD, she heard adult conversations, when she was old enough to ask questions she did and got answers. We talked politics, religion, sex, entertainment, weather,art, music, current events. Its like these uber xtians must guard every word that comes out of their mouths.

Exactly. My parents discussed everything as well. It was actually a great way to give us a moral education without banging us over the head. We weren't getting a lecture - we were discussing real-life outcomes of drug use, unplanned pregnancies, etc. It wasn't about obedience. It was about being given knowledge and tools to make smarter choices, and knowing how to get help if we or someone we knew made less-than-smart choices.

To me, an essential part of parenting is preparing your child to make moral choices in life. If you haven't prepared them to do so outside of a bubble, then you really haven't done your job.

[treehugger]

I guess it's easier for the fundies to avoid these topics because they are so incredibly sheltered. When I was 6 a girl I knew (she was 12) was raped by her uncle. My parents gave me "the talk" at like 5, and then we just talked about it a lot growing up - partly because we lived in the real world. Several of my friends were teen moms. When I was 9 a 40 year-old man propositioned me. There was just no way we could have grown up safe and not known about sex and safety. I also got my period young (I think I was 10). Anyways, my parents were very good about telling us all of this before we actually had to encounter it outside of the home.

I'm pretty sure though, that some of the fundie kids actually know more than their parents think they do. I hope so anyways.

[snarkbillie]

I don't understand the whole need to 'protect' children from knowledge. Fundies seem to have this weird belief that if you're honest about the facts of life they're going to want to jump into bed with someone or something. It's crazy. What on earth is wrong with giving your children the facts? They don't have to be graphic, for god's sake. Better to educate your children then to leave them ignorant and scared.

When one of mine was about 5 she asked me how babies "got out" and I told her that they come out of your vagina, unless there's some certain problems then you have a surgery. She decided then and there she did NOT want to have kids. She asked when she was about 8 how they "got in" and I explained as matter of fact as I could. She then decided she did not want to have sex.

I think maybe telling them the truth is better than lying. :lol: She's older now and is thinking maybe when she's "old" like me she might have sex but only if she doesn't have to get pregnant. (which by the way led to a discussion of various forms of contraception!)

[pomology]

Check out this comment from Lisa:

"OH! This is EXACTLY what i tell my 11yo!"

A child on the brink of puberty and s/he still doesn't know how their body functions. Frightening. :shock:

Yeah, I got my period when I was 11 (almost 12, but still). If I didn't know what was happening, I would have freaked the fuck out. As it was, I thought it was the most horrifying thing ever, but at least I knew it was a normal function of a female body and that I wasn't dying or anything like that.

[wild little fox]

Fundies say "innocence," I hear "ignorant" and "immature."

Me, too.

I was about six when I asked my mom which hole babies come out of and she said her standard "I don't know." Mmmmm.... Yeah, right and you have three children is what I thought at the time.

[wild little fox]

I remember reading a story of one of the fundie escapees at NLQ. The girl had to track her mense cycle in the calendar where everyone could see, and it was observed by the father. So, everything is secret and shame and then a spotlight is put on what can be a very private matter for a young woman. Creepy!

I wanted to add that since I have a farm and have young visitors I don't hesitate to answer questions. I was a bit embarrassed when my nephew first brought up a subject (I dont have children) but I realized I would rather be truthful, at ease, and matter of fact than to be likes mother was with me. Things come up easily with life happening all around us. It is nothing to be ashamed of.

It is really hard for me to fathom an eight year old who doesn't know how babies come into the world.

[YPestis]

While I can understand not explaining adult concerns in adult terms, there's no reason to blanket ignore a child's inquiries. If a child is old enough to ask, they are old enough to get an answer, even if it's just in general terms. By not answering, the child will look elsewhere for answers. Worse, they may start believing whatever weird explanations that others have. My SO and I have decided we would never deprive our children of the sex talk. As docs, it's almost embarrassing if our kids are ignorant of reproductive health. Furthermore, I don't understand why knowing where babies come from takes away "innocence". A child is no more mature by knowing that babies come through a vagina or that sex is what can create babies. It's just "the facts of life" to them.

[crazyforkate]

Seriously, how hard is it to tell the basic facts? You don't even have to talk about sex - but at the very least, a child of 8 should know how birth works.

[pomology]

I'm not actually sure I knew how vaginal birth worked at 8. I knew how c-sections worked (my brother and I were both born by c-section) and I think I probably assumed all births worked like that. Since I wasn't around a lot of pregnant women, I probably didn't ask how babies were born.

[merrily]

I suppose she'll freak out at the dolls they sell here in Germany. I saw a Barbie-like doll that was pregnant and her stomach can be opened so that the baby can be born.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

While I can understand not explaining adult concerns in adult terms, there's no reason to blanket ignore a child's inquiries. If a child is old enough to ask, they are old enough to get an answer, even if it's just in general terms. By not answering, the child will look elsewhere for answers. Worse, they may start believing whatever weird explanations that others have. My SO and I have decided we would never deprive our children of the sex talk. As docs, it's almost embarrassing if our kids are ignorant of reproductive health. Furthermore, I don't understand why knowing where babies come from takes away "innocence". A child is no more mature by knowing that babies come through a vagina or that sex is what can create babies. It's just "the facts of life" to them.

Reading over at the Jewish mommy forum with a lot of extremely religious posters who don't think it's proper that their 12 year old kids (particularly boys - if the girls are getting their periods they must be clued in at some point) know anything at all about the whole birth thing, it seems to be a leap that teaching kids about how babies are made requires that they realize they have genitalia and that sex occurs. Once they know this, they might go exploring. Or something. FWIW, plenty of the more "modern" (as in, living in the secular world while still being religious) posters over there similarly wonder WTF at the extreme sheltering too.

But yeah, there are families where Mom doesn't even want the older siblings to know she's pregnant at all - she gets a little fat, and then one day, wow, God has given us a baby. Or "Mom goes to get the baby at the hospital" type thing. Slightly better are the "God makes a special miracle hole for the baby to come out of" people. Heck, there are serious discussions of daughters about to get married who only then finally getting the FULL discussion of what sex involves, and occasionally posters who will honestly say they didn't suspect a thing until they were not far off from marriage, upper teens at least. I just can't imagine. But some of the schools they attend are extremely sheltered too so I suppose if NONE of their friends know enough to gossip about it even maybe it's possible?

I have one sister 4 years younger than myself, and so I had the talk about where the baby comes from around 4 years old. My mother explained all the details about it coming out, and pretty much everything from "sperm meets egg" onward. HOWEVER! She didn't explain how the sperm got in there, and somehow she was nervous or something so I sensed I shouldn't ask. I did wonder about that for years, like, was there some day when it just zipped across the room or what? But not all kids have the same birthday so that CAN'T be it... hahaha.

Can't deny now I'm wondering just how the Maxwells handle it.

[SpeakNow]

. HOWEVER! She didn't explain how the sperm got in there, and somehow she was nervous or something so I sensed I shouldn't ask. I did wonder about that for years, like, was there some day when it just zipped across the room or what? But not all kids have the same birthday so that CAN'T be it... hahaha.

Can't deny now I'm wondering just how the Maxwells handle it.

My mother told me that "The mommy and daddy give each other a special hug in which daddy puts his penis into mommy's vagina." This was when I was about 3. I thought that explanation worked just fine.