Fundie stuff I do not get

[Constance Vigilance]

I don't know if this occurs in the UK, but in the US there is a tendency for ethnic and national groups to live together in a neighborhood and intermarry. There are people here who are 6 generations removed from Ireland but almost 100% Irish and raised in an Irish community. My husband is about 75% Italian and raised in an Italian neighborhood; he definitely identifies as Italian. It is a strange American phenomenon, but you have to keep in mind that most of us are here because our families had to leave their homes, not because they wanted to. So there is a tendency to recreate the home country as much as possible, and identity is part of that.

I think, yes, describing it as an American phenomenon is a good way to put it.

It's not a big issue. I'm just saying, that any time the topic of Americans who think they are Irish/Scottish but are generations removed from the country in question comes up in conversation over here, we smile, raise our eyebrows and move on. We do not agree with them. So it is weird when e.g. fundie men show up in kilts because one person in their family tree sailed from Glasgow in 1824.

I happen to belong to one of the cultures a lot of Americans like to claim, so I find it strange. Each to their own.

[Constance Vigilance]

It is an American thing, but in the community where my parents live, there is a large population of immigrants, children of immigrants and so on from the country where three of my dad's grandparents came from. That community actually goes back and forth living in the US and that country. How would you label that group?

I've said at least twice that even a grandparent from the country in question is feasibly a close enough connection to make a claim to be (nationality), so I don't think it's hard to work out how I would view a community where people regularly go back and forth to that country? I am talking about people whose closest connection to wherever is a great-grandparent at best.

ETA:

I think in the US we tend to leave of the -American, because it is a given. It is redundant to always add it when we're talking.

This is an interesting point I hadn't considered.

Edited again to add: I said I shouldn't get started :D. It never ends well. I'll leave it here.

[Wolfie]

Fundies have some congenital inability to grasp that socialism =/= communism. I used to dislike socialism as a concept, I don't really know why. Countries like Sweden certainly seem more compassionate and "Christian" to me, I would love to see the US move in that direction. My husband has some objections, but he is not *afraid*, it's just another political preference to him.

It is not just fundies who don't understand it. It seems to be a lot of people. I posted this to my Facebook the other day http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/11/07 ... epublican/ (not editing it, because I'm sure they won't care) and just a few minutes later somebody on my friends list posted "anybody hear from the occutards lately?"

[Linnea]

I think in the US we tend to leave of the -American, because it is a given. It is redundant to always add it when we're talking.

This. When Americans are talking to other Americans, there's a tendency to say "My family is x" instead of "my family is x-American", because the "American" is assumed.

And then there's the whole phenomenon of Americans on the internet, who assume that everyone else on the internet is American.

[Doomed Harlottt]

Yeah, that's right. When my husband says, "I'm Irish," he doesn't mean it literally. And I get that, if an Irish person met him, he would seem like any other American; his American-ness would be more striking than any vestigial Irish-ness. But in an American context, the differences among an "Irish" guy from Boston, an "Italian" guy from New Jersey, and a "Norwegian" guy from Minnesota are striking.

I think Americans' strong sense of identification with ethnicity has to do with our relative youth as a country and the fact that we are founded on the basis of a set of ideas (contained in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution) rather than on any kind of shared culture. So people are always looking for some sense of cultural heritage.

[Doomed Harlottt]

I didn't want you to think we are picking on you, Constant Vigilance. I just think you've picked on an interesting aspect of the U.S.

Emmiedahl is right on, I think, with the fact that people really are more isolated within their ethnicities in the U.S. than non-USians realize. For example, my mother's family immigrated from Germany between the 1830s and 1850s. Yet, my grandfather, who was born in 1911, more than 50 years after his last forbear immigrated, spoke German as his first language and didn't learn English until he started school. Even my mother was raised in a German-Lutheran bubble in the '50s and '60s. These ethnic identities really do remain strong for generations after the fact and I think it can mean a lot more than playing dress up - although I can definitely understand why it might seem puzzling to others.

[liltwinstar]

Also, I think that just being American is seen even by other Americans as somewhat...shameful? Or not interesting enough? Something like that. Because we don't really have a national identity/culture the way that it seems the French do, for instance. Being American can be seen as being...boring and consumerist and whatnot, where if you're able to say "I'm Irish" or "I'm Armenian" or whatever, it makes you sound more interesting.

Plus, it is true that immigrant groups tend to congretate together and stay that way for a long time. My Great-Grandparents immigrated from Armenia in the 1920s (so nearly 100 years ago now), and they settled in a small neighborhood with other immigrant families (Armenians, Greeks, Italians...I'm assuming it was the low rent district, plus it was near the cannery where a lot of them worked...don't need English language skills to can peaches!). In the 1950s, they founded the local Armenian Orthodox church in their little neighborhood. Now that we're on the 4th generation, a shocking number of us still live in that little area. The Italian grocery in that neighborhood stocks some Armenian foods, etc, even though none of us speak the language, and pretty much the only Armenian thing about us these days is the Kufta in the freezer that we purchased from the food festival.

It's kind of a weird thing, but I guess saying that we're from somewhere else is part of American culture. :)

[alba]

I agree. From a european perspective the fear of communism is laughable when you have what we see as fascists (the tea party) being credible candidates for elected offices.

Not to mention the idea that a right-of-centre politician like Obama is going to turn the US into a communist country ...

ETA: Like, I am Irish. But if I moved to, say, Canada and had kids, they would be Canadian. Ethnically Irish, culturally Irish-Canadian, I would encourage them to get dual citizenship if that's possible so they had options, and I would probably call them Irish-Canadian. But I wouldn't call them Irish, because if I wanted Irish children I would give birth and raise them in Ireland. And if their kids, or their kids' kids started saying they were Irish after having been raised in Canada as the children (and/or grandchildren) of Canadians I would start making my face again. Irish-Canadian, okay. Irish, no. There is a difference, I think.

As the child of Scottish immigrants, I identify as Scots-Canadian. I've been living in Scotland for the past several years, and will sometimes comment on the fact that I'm Canadian as an explanation for, say, my love for canoeing. In Canada, on the other hand, I'll say 'my parents are Scottish' or 'I live in Scotland' as an explanation for a culturally Scottish element of my personality, like my sense of humour (which is way more British than North American). Interestingly, it's because of the Scottish part of my heritage and cultural identity that I never say I'm Scottish. My Canadian friends sometimes call me Scottish because, to them, I am culturally Scottish, even though I am very Canadian compared to my Scottish friends.

I think part of the reason people in North America would call themselves Scottish or Irish is because of their audience. I seem pretty Scottish to a lot of Canadians, and I feel Scottish around them, so in a Canadian context it's not outrageous for me to call myself Scottish (but I don't because I am ;) ). On the other hand, it would be patently ridiculous for me to tell people in Scotland I'm Scottish, when they're all so much more Scottish than me. The difference is, I think, what part of my cultural identity I share with my audience. In Canada it's my Canadianness, so that needs hardly be emphasised, whereas my Scottishness is what makes me different, culturally, from other Canadians I might be spending time with. So in the US a third-generation Irish-American might say 'I'm Irish' to non-Irish Americans, because that Irishness is the cultural difference, whereas the Americanness is shared. If that person then went to Ireland, though, he or she would be an American there.

[dairyfreelife]

I hope the re-education squad that shows up to collect me is this adorable.

Love it. :D

[JesusFightClub]

Love it. :D

Me too. I want to be the little tabby one.

[ladypuglover]

Me too. I want to be the little tabby one.

I want the one in the green hat.

[formergothardite]

If cute kittens in hats are involved, I'm becoming a communist.

[finleeport]

I don't know why fundies merge communism with atheism a lot.

From hearing the Rational Response Squad that debated Ray and Kirk long time ago, Kelly (Squad teammate) said that Communism is state-worship; there might not be a religious god, but the god of communism is the state.

[Renting with Raggles]

Lissar, I don't think that it's unreasonable to fear communism, when communism is real. It's not as though it isn't real. It's not as though there aren't plenty of horror stories from communist countries. Why would it be so hard to believe that it could happen in this country?

This is one of those non-answers I spoke of in my first post on page 1. Perhaps when you return from seeing to your children you could address the responses we give directly, rather than framing your answers in the form of vague questions. Here are some concrete answers to the questions above.

1/ It's not as though it isn't real

Yes, communism is real, but how many countries have adopted this form of government within the past 30 years? How many countries have dismantled communist governments and adopted democratic ones in the past 30 years? How many countries adhered / or still adhere strictly to communist ideals in practice? If you take a rational look at the numbers, it becomes clear that communism has rarely worked in practise as a long-term, viable economic or political system, and that most places that adopted this have either explicitly overthrown communist governments or have changed the system so that it no longer resembles communism is any way, shape or form. I actually live in mainland China; nominally a communist country, yet in any big city you find families with several children driving in Bentleys and BMWs to private schools. You can buy anything you like (if you have the cash) in the shops. Not at all what Marx predicted, and bears little resemblance to a place like North Korea.

2/ It's not as though there aren't plenty of horror stories from communist countries

Yes, but again - the time and place that these stories occur is relevant to deciding whether that particular threat applies to you. I don't think many Eastern Europeans fear being sent to the gulags today. How much do you know about the history of China? Do you think that there were fewer human rights abuses under the Imperial system, or under Jiang Jiashi's democracy? Even if there were another Cultural Revolution tomorrow, I know that, as an Australian, it would not be a particular threat to me personally. I would likely be sent back to Sydney, but I certainly would not be afraid of a similar regime being adopted by the Australian government. Australians, like Americans, have never been enamoured of communism - so there's no reason to believe that they'll start now.

3/ Why would it be so hard to believe that it could happen in this country?

The evidence listed above. You seem to acknowledge that you are subject to psychological fears, and then you get annoyed when Lissar and others have shown that one of the fears you hold is irrational.

Look: I wouldn't like to live in a feudal theocracy. Life in Saudi Arabia sucks today, and I'm not too keen on the medieval French or English kingdoms, either. I know that there would likely be many human rights abuses in this sort of government - many aimed at me, as a woman and an agnostic atheist. But I'm not sitting here biting my fingernails in anticipation that Australia will become a theocracy and adopt the feudal system. Is it possible? Sure. Is it probable? No - so it doesn't affect the way I live my life, even down to who I vote for in elections.

[dairyfreelife]

Also, I think that just being American is seen even by other Americans as somewhat...shameful? Or not interesting enough? Something like that. Because we don't really have a national identity/culture the way that it seems the French do, for instance. Being American can be seen as being...boring and consumerist and whatnot, where if you're able to say "I'm Irish" or "I'm Armenian" or whatever, it makes you sound more interesting.

Plus, it is true that immigrant groups tend to congretate together and stay that way for a long time. My Great-Grandparents immigrated from Armenia in the 1920s (so nearly 100 years ago now), and they settled in a small neighborhood with other immigrant families (Armenians, Greeks, Italians...I'm assuming it was the low rent district, plus it was near the cannery where a lot of them worked...don't need English language skills to can peaches!). In the 1950s, they founded the local Armenian Orthodox church in their little neighborhood. Now that we're on the 4th generation, a shocking number of us still live in that little area. The Italian grocery in that neighborhood stocks some Armenian foods, etc, even though none of us speak the language, and pretty much the only Armenian thing about us these days is the Kufta in the freezer that we purchased from the food festival.

It's kind of a weird thing, but I guess saying that we're from somewhere else is part of American culture. :)

I don't feel ashamed when I say I am American. I was born here, I grew up and I still live here. I love my country. I love the freedoms that I have available to me. I knew it is not a perfect country, and things could still stand to be improved, but overall, it's not a bad place to live at all. I think Americans are interested in their ancestry because we are a young country and almost everyone came from somewhere else within the past couple hundred years and some immigrant groups are so close and traditions still so strong that I think some people really feel a part of their original culture. However, just because your ancestors were something does not make you that too. I know I have ancestors from Scotland, Ireland, England (Wales), German (my surname is German by heritage), Italian and Native American (Cherokee-father's side) and it's neat to know how and when my ancestors arrived here, but that's the extent of interest for me. I don't see the interest as feeling ashamed, but more embracing yourself and learning about our pasts.

[itsthatonegirl]

This is one of those non-answers I spoke of in my first post on page 1. Perhaps when you return from seeing to your children you could address the responses we give directly, rather than framing your answers in the form of vague questions. Here are some concrete answers to the questions above.

1/ It's not as though it isn't real

Yes, communism is real, but how many countries have adopted this form of government within the past 30 years? How many countries have dismantled communist governments and adopted democratic ones in the past 30 years? How many countries adhered / or still adhere strictly to communist ideals in practice? If you take a rational look at the numbers, it becomes clear that communism has rarely worked in practise as a long-term, viable economic or political system, and that most places that adopted this have either explicitly overthrown communist governments or have changed the system so that it no longer resembles communism is any way, shape or form. I actually live in mainland China; nominally a communist country, yet in any big city you find families with several children driving in Bentleys and BMWs to private schools. You can buy anything you like (if you have the cash) in the shops. Not at all what Marx predicted, and bears little resemblance to a place like North Korea.

2/ It's not as though there aren't plenty of horror stories from communist countries

Yes, but again - the time and place that these stories occur is relevant to deciding whether that particular threat applies to you. I don't think many Eastern Europeans fear being sent to the gulags today. How much do you know about the history of China? Do you think that there were fewer human rights abuses under the Imperial system, or under Jiang Jiashi's democracy? Even if there were another Cultural Revolution tomorrow, I know that, as an Australian, it would not be a particular threat to me personally. I would likely be sent back to Sydney, but I certainly would not be afraid of a similar regime being adopted by the Australian government. Australians, like Americans, have never been enamoured of communism - so there's no reason to believe that they'll start now.

3/ Why would it be so hard to believe that it could happen in this country?

The evidence listed above. You seem to acknowledge that you are subject to psychological fears, and then you get annoyed when Lissar and others have shown that one of the fears you hold is irrational.

Look: I wouldn't like to live in a feudal theocracy. Life in Saudi Arabia sucks today, and I'm not too keen on the medieval French or English kingdoms, either. I know that there would likely be many human rights abuses in this sort of government - many aimed at me, as a woman and an agnostic atheist. But I'm not sitting here biting my fingernails in anticipation that Australia will become a theocracy and adopt the feudal system. Is it possible? Sure. Is it probable? No - so it doesn't affect the way I live my life, even down to who I vote for in elections.

Well, yes, I did acknowledge that I am subject to psychological fears. The fear of someday living in a dystopian, totalitarian state at some point in the future is one of them. Is it rational? Maybe not, but as I said, anxiety is something that I struggle with.

When I think of a fear of communism, though, I don't think of America itself becoming communist, I think more in terms of the possibility of a global government. I do not think this is a completely irrational or crazy thing to fear. It would be more than possible simply because of the level of technology that humanity has achieved. All it takes is a group of people who decide it's time for them to quench their thirst for power. Because of technology, it would be much harder for people to fight back than it has been in the past.

[Witsec7]

Fundies and religionists all are paranoid about the NWO or some pie in the sky world wide government. When was the last time they took and look and figured out the contemporary foundation of that paradigm? I'll give them a clue it was Abram Vereide. The world wide spiritual offensive was and is promoted by the likes of the quiverfull movement, Gothardites, and the Vision Forum followers.

[Guest Anonymous]

Well, yes, I did acknowledge that I am subject to psychological fears. The fear of someday living in a dystopian, totalitarian state at some point in the future is one of them. Is it rational? Maybe not, but as I said, anxiety is something that I struggle with.

When I think of a fear of communism, though, I don't think of America itself becoming communist, I think more in terms of the possibility of a global government. I do not think this is a completely irrational or crazy thing to fear. It would be more than possible simply because of the level of technology that humanity has achieved. All it takes is a group of people who decide it's time for them to quench their thirst for power. Because of technology, it would be much harder for people to fight back than it has been in the past.

You don't want to live in a totalitarian state, but you're licking the boots of the people who actually want to bring that about here in the U.S. It's cray-cray. You are a loon. It's no use talking to you because you completely reject earth logic.

More logic fail on technology making it harder for people to fight back, by the way. If you paid any attention to the world around you maybe you would have noticed that several dictators were overthrown last year and the internet/technology played a huge role in that happening.

[emmiedahl]

Totalitarian states aren't always leftist. ITOG, your buddies are trying to bring about one right now. If they succeed, it will be like Saudi Arabia here, which makes Communist Russia look like a picnic.

The right is much closer to taking over, much less tolerant, and much more dogmatic in their views at the current time. You need to worry about your friends, ITOG. The people you support would have no problem killing millions if they thought the Bible told them to do so. On a global scale, Communism is on its way out and Christian Conservatism is on its way in, so you are worrying about the wrong thing.

[Renting with Raggles]

I don't think of America itself becoming communist, I think more in terms of the possibility of a global government. I do not think this is a completely irrational or crazy thing to fear. It would be more than possible simply because of the level of technology that humanity has achieved.

As I said above, the rationality of fear is not based on possibility, it is based on probability. What is your rationale for believing that people around the world would be more accepting of a global communist government? Why do you think that technology would facilitate acceptance of a political/ economic system which is generally rejected at present?

You need to back up what you think with concrete evidence, if people are to take your positions seriously.

All it takes is a group of people who decide it's time for them to quench their thirst for power.

Here you have made an assertion and an extremely vague statement. All it takes to take over the world is for some people to decide to and then set a date? Apparently global domination is easier to pull off than a celebrity wedding!

I'm not being flippant because I'm trying to belittle you - but your claims are typical of what I have seen of hyper-religious groups (Christian and Muslim) on this site and others. When fundies come here to debate/ promote their positions, I am really intrigued by how badly they do it. Your scenario above sounds like a comic-book plot, not something a rational person would consider.

I am genuinely curious: do your religious leaders explicitly teach you to make such vague statements in conversation with unbelievers? Are you not allowed to cite evidence, or have you never encountered the type of discourse that requires it for claims to be accepted: have you never written an academic paper, nor participated in a competitive debate?

[Guest Anonymous]

When fundies come here to debate/ promote their positions, I am really intrigued by how badly they do it. Your scenario above sounds like a comic-book plot, not something a rational person would consider.

I am genuinely curious: do your religious leaders explicitly teach you to make such vague statements in conversation with unbelievers? Are you not allowed to cite evidence, or have you never encountered the type of discourse that requires it for claims to be accepted: have you never written an academic paper, nor participated in a competitive debate?

I think a lot of the problem is the type of people that are drawn to/stay in fundamentalism in the first place. They're often scared, they usually lack intellectual curiosity, and they want to follow some rules, dammit! People who don't fit that mold may grow up in fundiedom or get sucked into it for a time, but they tend not to be lifers in the system.

The slimy refusal to answer a straight question grates on me like nothing else, though.

[Peas n carrots]

My husband was born and raised barely on the English side of the Scotland/England border. His mother is from Scotland, and his father's parents were both born in Scotland, but he always says he is English and cheers for the English National Football team. Most of the time in the US he tells people he's Scottish, as that is what his accent sounds like to Americans...he just confuses Americans when he says he English, as it seems the average American associates the English accent with the Queen's English or Cockney.

What is interesting, is he has done a lot of geneology, and before moving to Scotland his family came from Ireland. His great great grandfather left his family and moved to America in the 1920's, and the US Census lists his grandfather as "Irish National" even though his family's roots in Scotland go back 3 or 4 generations before him. I always thought that was interesting.

In my experience, there tends to be an especially strong Irish identification in th US for those descended from Irish immigrants. It may seem funny CV, but really I think for most in the US it's paying Irish people a complement :-)

Though I think it's funny when I tell my fellow Americans that Irish truly don't eat corned beef and cabbage LOL.

As for myself, I'm such a Heinz 57 even if I didn't want to call myself American it's a laundry list of places my ancestors came from. I've got English, Czech, Belgian, French, Welsh, German, Jewish, and Irish ancestors.

Edited because I do know grammar y'all!

[Juniper]

With regards to the nationality aspect, I'm completely Polish-American with dual citizenship although I was born in the US. In the US, I identify as Polish. In Poland, as American. I can't remember which poster mentioned it but the idea that it's because the US lacks a full cultural identity range true with me. What do you think of when I say "imagine the American cultural costume?" You can't really. With Polish, a certain dress springs to mind. The same occurs with every other nationality I can think of aside from American. I think it's because it is such a new country that we cling to our ancestors' heritage and traditions.

The question about communism. All I can weigh in on is that my negative thoughts on communism as an actual form of government as opposed to an idealized society stem from the effects of communism in Poland on my family. I know what they went through under a communist regime and that's why I'm not a follower of it.

[Witsec7]

With regards to the nationality aspect, I'm completely Polish-American with dual citizenship although I was born in the US. In the US, I identify as Polish. In Poland, as American. I can't remember which poster mentioned it but the idea that it's because the US lacks a full cultural identity range true with me. What do you think of when I say "imagine the American cultural costume?" You can't really. With Polish, a certain dress springs to mind. The same occurs with every other nationality I can think of aside from American. I think it's because it is such a new country that we cling to our ancestors' heritage and traditions.

The question about communism. All I can weigh in on is that my negative thoughts on communism as an actual form of government as opposed to an idealized society stem from the effects of communism in Poland on my family. I know what they went through under a communist regime and that's why I'm not a follower of it.

Good perspective Juniper, and one I can relate to in some ways. My father immigrated to the US from Poland. Growing up in the '50's in a town of immigrants, and first generation Americans it was easy to hold onto our parents tradition. We were acutely aware of the hardships our families suffered in Poland and Russia under the communists. I did have a good basic American education and was able to support utopian communism much to my parents chagrin. I was a CPUSA member for many years, and in my time with the party I met a few folks whose backgrounds were similar to mine, commies who came from very anticommie families.

[Renting with Raggles]

I think a lot of the problem is the type of people that are drawn to/stay in fundamentalism in the first place. They're often scared, they usually lack intellectual curiosity, and they want to follow some rules, dammit! People who don't fit that mold may grow up in fundiedom or get sucked into it for a time, but they tend not to be lifers in the system.

The slimy refusal to answer a straight question grates on me like nothing else, though.

This.

I wish there was some device which could translate fundie-speak into earth-logic. I also wish there were some way of making them see how frustrating it is when they try to legislate their opinions on other people, particularly when what they believe is based solely on "Well, this sounds nice to me".