Fundie stuff I do not get

[JesusFightClub]

I'm sick and curled up in bed reading fundy blogs on my mobile. And now have noticed some weird themes linking them, which confuse me.

1. Why do they all seem to think "organised sports" are sinful? They like hunting but any sport which has you playing in a team is suspect. Since the sports we have now are not mentioned in the Bible there is no prohibition so why are they bad? And why do American fundies seem to hate football (soccer) ? They seem to see it as unmanly whereas here little boys think football players are manly and cool and want to grow up to be one.

2. Why have the fundies never grown up from the Cold War age and have stayed terrified of communism and communists? Being one, I can say that there are very very few of us, we wield no great power and we aren't working in a huge undercover army to destroy America. Honestly I would have got it in 1950 though the picture would still have been wrong. But in 2012? And again how is this even remotely Biblical?

3. Why do they make up total fantasies about "don't you DARE say a WORD against the sin of homosexuality?" Obviously I'm not from the US but my understanding is that your freedom of speech laws are strong, and "even" in the UK you can pretty much complain about homosexuality at will. So I am supposed to believe no one in the US can talk about it? You may have people disagree with you but I doubt you'll be hauled away to the jail.

Finally, and related to the above:

4. Why do they not get that banning the stuff they don't like (rap, immodest clothing, women working outside the home) leaves the door open to banning stuff they DO like? All it takes is a change of regime.

Fundies are making me sad :(

[Esther]

I'm not from the US, either (I'm from Belgium, such a sinful place!), but I've spent the past few years there, and:

1. I have no idea, apart from the fact that perhaps they assume it's just gonna be too much fun to handle? That'd be a Steve Maxwell sort of reasoning, anyway. Hunting is okay, at least for boys, because it proves you're MANLY.

2. Actually, the fear of communism isn't really just a fundie thing - I've met plenty of right-wing Americans who seriously still haven't gotten the memo that the Berlin Wall has now fallen and that Russia is not going to invade the day after tomorrow. This all fits in with the 'Obama is a socialist' thing (I'm a socialist, and I'm pretty sure he's not!). Many people believe communism and socialism are the exact same thing, and they're both out to take your money. Also possibly your guns. It baffles me, but then I'm a crazy leftie, so what do I know?

3. Fundies often have a persecution complex - it fits in with the whole 'war on Christianity' thing which is once again completely baffling. I have never been to a country as deeply Christian as the United States. There is no war on Christians going on, at all - but fundies firmly believe they're gonna be martyred anytime now. Just look at the PP, who seems to enjoy provoking Border Patrol, or something. You're right, though. Even in our UNFREE, SOCIALIST EUROPE we can pretty much say whatever we want and surprisingly not get killed.

4. They're ignorant.

[Renting with Raggles]

Fundie stuff I don't get:

1/ Looking only at anti-science texts to get a 'fair and balanced' view of evolution. I mean, if I wanted to know what Ray Comfort and that 80s kid actor he hangs out with said about creationism, I would actually read things they wrote, not ideas on creationism from a biology text refuting their claims.

2/ Going on and on about abortion while refusing to support the policies which are proven to reduce abortion (see countries like Esther's). I know they justify their position by saying they don't want to countenance sin, or whatever, but it's like - what do you really want? Reality shows us that you can have readily available contraception, free healthcare and social support for families and a low incidence of abortion or you can criminalise it and have equal or greater percentages of abortions. That's just the way it works here on planet earth. It's like saying you want to end world hunger, but because it's wrong to kill the sacred cows, you recommend that people invest in unicorn farms.

3/ Refusing or unable to give straightforward answers to concrete questions. I don't know which is the case. I'm guessing that they are taught to deliberately avoid giving answers and are given a script to work with.

[Brainsample]

Adding to Esther's fine answer, specifically about Communism:

1. Communism is based upon a premise of atheism and evolution as a consequence. You cannot believe the Bible as an authoritative document and get beyond page one if you accept atheism. I don't think that the evolution stuff is as big of a problem, but with the advent of the homeschooling movement, young earth creationism became a way for these guys to make money. It provided more hype to get wound up about and to terrify people about Communism and atheism, and so many homeschoolers operate out of fear. By citing Communism when discussing theories of origin, it becomes a pejorative which helps them make creationism seem more essential. It's a means of frightening kids away from considering atheism.

2. Esther points out, not in so many words that most people don't believe that there's a difference between communism and socialism, for example. This is a function of their extreme black and white thinking, an informal logical fallacy and propaganda technique. Drawing from the first point, as an example, if you don't believe in Creation and young earth, you are essentially no different than a communist. You may as well be Stalin himself and you support the butchering of 300 million people or whatever figure they like to quote. So it adds to the weight of the emotional blackmail that they use, and it's profoundly effective, but it is mostly, in this respect, a reflection of their all or nothing way of perceiving and judging things, often in over-simplistic ways.

Not that I don't find Communism and most types of collectivism disturbing if not terrifying, but I'm a libertarian and have ancestors who fought in the War for Independence. Freedom and liberty, American rugged individualism, etc. And that is not socialism, though we do have a great number of socialist policies and programs in the US and have since before I was born. The radical Christian Right would like to pretend that it's possible to get rid of 100% of everything that they consider socialist, but I think that when they all start turning 65, they'll soften up quite a bit on what they consider to be improper.

3. If you look at Right Wing Populism, most of the people you're talking about prefer conspiracy and producerism (two of the four elements that Berlet and Lyons identify as characteristic perspectives of this group).

http://www.publiceye.org/right_wing_pop ... ulism.html

The mindset promotes and encourages conspiracy theory and they see everything culminating in a cataclysmic apocalypse because of how they interpret Scripture and put it into perspective. So they just tend to see anything as different from their own view, especially along these lines of redistributing wealth (related to the producerism) and this philosophical stuff, as terribly threatening. Rather than trusting the sovereign God that they all seem so zealous to preach about, they seem to throw all that out of the window and jump right on the bandwagon of whatever conspiracy that they can find. Everyone's out to get them, and even a husband has to worry about their wife usurping and dominating them. Pearl sees children as having a diabolical will that seeks to conquer parents. It's just how they make sense of the world.

Scapegoating is also one of the four primary elements of Right Wing Populism, and groups like "Communists" make for a very convenient scapegoat upon which these folks can blame EVERYTHING! In marriage, they blame women. In public schools, they blame the lack of Bible reading and evolution for the reason that the schools have failed. It alleviates them of responsibility.

Hitler always stated that he didn't think that every Jew should be exterminated. One needed to keep at least a few around to have them to lay blame upon when things didn't work the way that they should. So for many Christians, they treat Communists and socialists alike in the same way that Hitler believed about the Jews in this respect -- in terms of scapegoating anyway.

[Dinorah]

Apart from the stuff already mentioned, the main fundie thing I don't get is women complaining about femininsm without realizing, apparently, that they benefit from it many ways, by being able to vote, drive, read and write, express their opinions freely etc. If blogs had existed in their beloved Victorian times I seriously doubt that many women would have had one.

Oh and also their callousness towards the poor and needy and love of unrestrained Capitalism, which seems to go pretty much against all Jesus was about.

[Brainsample]

Fundie stuff I don't get:

1/ Looking only at anti-science texts to get a 'fair and balanced' view of evolution.

FEAR! and control! These folks are all about control which they seek because they feel so out of control themselves. Controlling and sheltering their kids is easier than teaching the kids to think for themselves, possibly arriving at a conclusion that the parent doesn't like. I'm 45, and my 70 year old parents are still trying to turn screws of control where they can, and most of the people talked about here on FJ would consider my home liberal and worldly. We had a TV and I wore pants half the time. And I was allowed to dance and go trick or treating.

2/ Going on and on about abortion while refusing to support the policies which are proven to reduce abortion (see countries like Esther's).

Fear and control! I am pro-life, but I have no problem with most contraception. The Christian Reconstructionists who sought to regain the power and influence in civil politics that they abdicated, probably dating back to their embarrassment concerning evolution in the courts (Scopes monkey trial for example), use the prolife movement like a choke chain on a dog. They drag people around by the neck with it, and they use it for sensationalism and emotional blackmail. And they use a whole lot of social pressure to enforce it within evangelicalism. There again, is the black and white thinking. Anything that is not 100% ultra extremist pro-life is 100% death seeking and baby hating.

3/ Refusing or unable to give straightforward answers to concrete questions. I don't know which is the case. I'm guessing that they are taught to deliberately avoid giving answers and are given a script to work with.

People aren't taught to think. If they start thinking, they will be harder to control in these types of churches. So people are essentially given a script and are taught to just give knee jerk responses.

When I spoke at a seminary a couple of years ago and marveled to a minister friend of mine about how disturbed I was that some of the students could ask me questions about things that I thought were pretty basic and obvious, he laughed at me -- one of those full bellied laughs. He thought it was naive of me to expect that these nice looking, dedicated Christian young men would be thinkers because it was his opinion that most seminaries train clones and not thinkers. They don't want thinkers in higher education. -- Considering that this is the case in the colleges and seminaries, why would the layman be any different? All they have are avoidance and scripts.

I don't think that it's true of all Christians. Super fundies, definitely, and most people seem uncomfortable with confrontation or challenge. There are some good thinkers out there, but according to Christians like Oz Guiness and Mark Noll, they are few and far between.

[Brainsample]

Apart from the stuff already mentioned, the main fundie thing I don't get is women complaining about femininsm without realizing, apparently, that they benefit from it many ways, by being able to vote, drive, read and write, express their opinions freely etc. If blogs had existed in their beloved Victorian times I seriously doubt that many women would have had one.

Oh and also their callousness towards the poor and needy and love of unrestrained Capitalism, which seems to go pretty much against all Jesus was about.

All this makes me crazy, too.

Especially when it comes to these Erzatz Calvinist neo-Chalcedon types who hate the Enlightenment which they see as purely monolithic as opposed to a very diverse era that encompassed many things. (I see it as a result of the Gospel and the principles of Scripture!) If the colonists hadn't been a bunch of rag tag rebels and if they followed their "multigenerational faithfulness," they would still be serving King George. The Enlightenment was the epitome of all that is evil, and if it weren't for it, we'd all be blissfully following feudalism. That is scapegoating.

But there'd be no Wealth of Nations, because Adam Smith's book that Doug Phillips loves so much would have never been written by the Enlightenment Era thinker. And if it weren't for the rebellion and the declaration of independence and inalienable rights, the Confederates whom they all adore would have no rights to defend and no right to pursue secession. Their rights were contingent upon the rights that they say ruined the world, but they sure didn't have a problem trying to assert those rights in the "War of Northern Aggression" (aka the Civil War).

(Where's that soap box emotocon?)

Maybe I need more coffee?

[Guest Anonymous]

Organised sports are a no-no because they encourage peer-group interactions which undermines the father's God-given authority within the family unit.

Nathan Maxwell was allowed to do sports for a while as a child, and he was allowed to meet his own wife in a church with a youth group. Now he has developed crazy ideas about letting his little girls play with toys like Doctors and Nurses's kits, and his frumper-free wife has lured him to spend all of the Christmas holiday with her family. He is only 45 and might still be under the authority of Daddy Steve, if only the sports had been kicked to the kerb sooner.... :naughty:

[skrmom]

Apart from the stuff already mentioned, the main fundie thing I don't get is women complaining about femininsm without realizing, apparently, that they benefit from it many ways, by being able to vote, drive, read and write, express their opinions freely etc. If blogs had existed in their beloved Victorian times I seriously doubt that many women would have had one.

Oh and also their callousness towards the poor and needy and love of unrestrained Capitalism, which seems to go pretty much against all Jesus was about.

Steve Anderson (AKA-PP) has preached that women should not vote. Zsuzsu is NOT allowed to vote. Of course, he complains about our government, but denies the women in his congregation the right to vote and maybe change things.

[JesusFightClub]

I want to reply more to these excellent posts and will do shortly but another fundie question:

WHY WHY WHY DO VF FUNDIES WEAR KILTS?

It actually looks a bit embarrassing to Scots. If you're an American man, going on about being a proud American, why do you kid on you are a Scot and wear our national dress? If you like to come over and move here you are welcome, but living in Arkansas and being generations removed from actual Scottish people in Scotland but going around wearing a kilt makes about as much sense as if I was to dress as an Irish peasant or an extra from Fiddler on the Roof. I.e, none.

VF people, you are welcome to come and stay here. With me in ex council housing in a poor area, in a high rise in central Glasgow, in a bungalow in rural Scotland or somewhere classy in Morningside in Edinburgh. Just don't take on our culture when you haven't the faintest idea what it is. Don't play dress up as us.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

1. Organized sports--only the far, far, right ultra-sheltering homeschoolers exclude them. They make a cult of "family" and anything that takes away from family is evil and it sets apart an individuals.

2. Communism is a great evil because in it's Soviet/Chinese incarnations it banned religion.

3. Banning stuff is easier than ignoring it. They know if their kids catch on to another way of thinking they're doomed.........

[Brainsample]

I want to reply more to these excellent posts and will do shortly but another fundie question:

WHY WHY WHY DO VF FUNDIES WEAR KILTS?

It actually looks a bit embarrassing to Scots. If you're an American man, going on about being a proud American, why do you kid on you are a Scot and wear our national dress? If you like to come over and move here you are welcome, but living in Arkansas and being generations removed from actual Scottish people in Scotland but going around wearing a kilt makes about as much sense as if I was to dress as an Irish peasant or an extra from Fiddler on the Roof. I.e, none.

VF people, you are welcome to come and stay here. With me in ex council housing in a poor area, in a high rise in central Glasgow, in a bungalow in rural Scotland or somewhere classy in Morningside in Edinburgh. Just don't take on our culture when you haven't the faintest idea what it is. Don't play dress up as us.

Seriously, some of it has to do with their love for John Knox who wrote the Monstrous Regiment of Women. They're all proud of being Presby and proud of how Knox mouthed off about women on the throne so they can reinterpret it to refer to all women so that there is another class of people the men can look down upon.

And some of these fruitloops trace their KKK origins back to Scotland, too. Supposedly the KKK was first founded by Americans of Scottish descent, and they smear the poor Scots for their own hatred and insanity, giving the Isle a bad name.

RC Sproul, Jr is actually Scottish, so for him, it is reasonable. He traces his line back to the Presbyterians in Scotland. I heard his dad talk about it on a tape about 25 years ago.... So he actually does have recourse to wear a kilt, and their family did keep in with some of those traditions. As for anyone else, I can't tell ya more than that.

[lilah]

I think the whole "no organized sports" thing has to do with both money and time, since the logistics of paying for and figuring out the schedules of say 6-9 kids playing soccer at different fields and different times might be a real pain in the arse. Also allowing your child to hang out with peers might lead to them making friends, learning about the outside world and becoming worldly.

[Constance Vigilance]

RC Sproul, Jr is actually Scottish, so for him, it is reasonable. He traces his line back to the Presbyterians in Scotland.

But when you say "he traces his line", what does that mean? His grandparents were Scottish? Great-grandparents? Further back than that?

As an Irish person it's probably best if I don't get started on this, but honestly, if anyone further back than your grandparents is from Ireland and you think you're Irish, please be aware that most Irish people of my acquaintance regard you with...amused scepticism? We find it pretty strange. If you were born and raised in America, and your parents, and your grandparents, in what way are you Irish? I'll take "of Irish descent" if that's where some of your ancestors are from, but I don't often see people say that. It's "I'm Irish-American" because one set of great-grandparents were from Cork. :|

If a few of RC Sproul Jr's ancestors originally came over from Scotland that's nice, but if it was more than a couple of generations ago then (in my view) he isn't "Scottish" in any way that matters.

Edited, as always, a million times for clarification.

[Dinorah]

Steve Anderson (AKA-PP) has preached that women should not vote. Zsuzsu is NOT allowed to vote. Of course, he complains about our government, but denies the women in his congregation the right to vote and maybe change things.

I know some of them don't vote, but they still express opinions publically. Zsu obviously does. These women are choosing not to vote. They're choosing to follow their wacky lifestyles. Hard as it might be to break away from fundamentalism, they aree in a society that does offer other options for women. I can't think there's any woman in the Western world who doesn't benefit from feminism in one way or another.

[HOTW]

I htin the biggest issue the fundies have with organized sports is the fact that there is no division allowed by race,sex etc. Football is immodest because of those "shorts"-comeone who hasnt watched a game and wonderedd if we weren't going to see s urprise appearance by the players genitalia?

I think they fear communism because it would mean they can't hoard their wealth to themselves they would have to share it-fear is a big thing and if one can inspire fear about one thing it just keeps cropping up in others.

I fidn in our section of the US if my son puts in an appearance in a kilt he is stared at and regarded as a bit freakish unless we happen to be at a Renaissance Faire where it is totally normal for the guys to be kilted up. Add ot the fact he was worn kilts since he was about 9 and most boys wouldn't even go there at that age. He has even *gasp* danced IrishStep in them(yes he had underwear on) and he could kick very high *gasp gasp* probably yhr efundies think kilt wearing increases their sperm count so thats why they wear them...my son wears them because he can due to heritage.

[desertvixen]

I know they justify their position by saying they don't want to countenance sin, or whatever, but it's like - what do you really want? Reality shows us that you can have readily available contraception, free healthcare and social support for families and a low incidence of abortion or you can criminalise it and have equal or greater percentages of abortions. That's just the way it works here on planet earth. It's like saying you want to end world hunger, but because it's wrong to kill the sacred cows, you recommend that people invest in unicorn farms.

I love you for the bolded bit!

[JesusFightClub]

Constance Vigilance put it far better than I ever could.

It's not offensive, but, er, strange. When I said about dressing like an Irish peasant or from Fiddler on the Roof, I wasn't joking. My dad's side are Irish Prods and my mum's side are Eastern European (Jewish way back in the day) via London. I am not either of those, I am a Scot. So it would be ridiculous for me (not wrong or evil, but daft) to dress as someone like that and give speeches.

It is also a bit unusual in that they seem to have a bizarre view of Scotland. There are black and Asian Scots who have more right to the kilt by a mile than Sproul does and speak with heavy Scots accents.

It feels like Scotland is fantasywhiteheroicworld for these guys, which is creepy. Why I extend my invite to VF types, especially interns. I live in a "deprived neighbourhood". You will have to sleep on the couch, which has frankly seen better days. You are going to see petty criminal activity. But you are also going to see what shows Scotland at its best, a multiracial and multinational community which retained community spirit.

No William Wallace. But being one o' Jock Tamson's bairns :)

[fundamentalistnomore]

I'm sick and curled up in bed reading fundy blogs on my mobile. And now have noticed some weird themes linking them, which confuse me.

1. Why do they all seem to think "organised sports" are sinful? They like hunting but any sport which has you playing in a team is suspect. Since the sports we have now are not mentioned in the Bible there is no prohibition so why are they bad? And why do American fundies seem to hate football (soccer) ? They seem to see it as unmanly whereas here little boys think football players are manly and cool and want to grow up to be one.

In my experience, organized sports take away from church. Most IFB's have church services Sunday morn, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Saturday soulwinning/discipleship. If the team has to go away to another town, it may conflict with one of the days.

Another reason is character. A person may be exposed to people with differing beliefs. Fundies prefer families & playmates within their own circles.

They have to trust another person to guide their child. These kids have been taught all their lives to obey. Therefore, they can't think for themselves if Coach Nonchurched does something they don't agree with.

[itsthatonegirl]

I'm sick and curled up in bed reading fundy blogs on my mobile. And now have noticed some weird themes linking them, which confuse me.

1. Why do they all seem to think "organised sports" are sinful? They like hunting but any sport which has you playing in a team is suspect. Since the sports we have now are not mentioned in the Bible there is no prohibition so why are they bad? And why do American fundies seem to hate football (soccer) ? They seem to see it as unmanly whereas here little boys think football players are manly and cool and want to grow up to be one.

2. Why have the fundies never grown up from the Cold War age and have stayed terrified of communism and communists? Being one, I can say that there are very very few of us, we wield no great power and we aren't working in a huge undercover army to destroy America. Honestly I would have got it in 1950 though the picture would still have been wrong. But in 2012? And again how is this even remotely Biblical?

3. Why do they make up total fantasies about "don't you DARE say a WORD against the sin of homosexuality?" Obviously I'm not from the US but my understanding is that your freedom of speech laws are strong, and "even" in the UK you can pretty much complain about homosexuality at will. So I am supposed to believe no one in the US can talk about it? You may have people disagree with you but I doubt you'll be hauled away to the jail.

Finally, and related to the above:

4. Why do they not get that banning the stuff they don't like (rap, immodest clothing, women working outside the home) leaves the door open to banning stuff they DO like? All it takes is a change of regime.

Fundies are making me sad :(

Perhaps I am not fundy enough, but,

1. I have no problem with organized sports.

2. Yes, this one I can say is a fear for me. But I'm a fearful person in general.

3. I don't think this happens here yet, maybe some isolated cases, but word gets spread that it happens in countries like Canada, so some people think it will come this direction. It isn't something I spend any time thinking about, myself, really.

4. Rap is one of my guilty pleasures... :o as long as it's pre-1999 or so.

[Guest Anonymous]

Perhaps I am not fundy enough, but,

1. I have no problem with organized sports.

2. Yes, this one I can say is a fear for me. But I'm a fearful person in general.

3. I don't think this happens here yet, maybe some isolated cases, but word gets spread that it happens in countries like Canada, so some people think it will come this direction. It isn't something I spend any time thinking about, myself, really.

4. Rap is one of my guilty pleasures... :o as long as it's pre-1999 or so.

What exactly do you think the communists and socialists are going to do to you? Move you out to one of those communes they have all over the place? Put you up against the wall come the revolution? Do you think that's imminent?

[Constance Vigilance]

Perhaps I am not fundy enough, but,

1. I have no problem with organized sports.

2. Yes, this one I can say is a fear for me. But I'm a fearful person in general.

3. I don't think this happens here yet, maybe some isolated cases, but word gets spread that it happens in countries like Canada, so some people think it will come this direction. It isn't something I spend any time thinking about, myself, really.

4. Rap is one of my guilty pleasures... :o as long as it's pre-1999 or so.

"I'm a fearful person in general" is probably the key to why fundie beliefs sound so good to you. That sounds like an anxiety disorder. I've been there -- there have been times in my life where having a divine mandate to stay in my own safe bubble away from all risk and danger and unknown would have seemed like (pardon the pun) a godsend.

What you do about that, is you get some COUNSELLING (there is free self-help stuff on the internet if money is an issue) and you work through your mental health issues until you're ready to face the world. Unfortunately what a lot of people do is dive into religious craziness, as if the problem is not with them but with the world. And then they end up spouting crazy cognitive dissonance stuff as you're prone to and ignoring reality, because reality is too scary.

A fuck you edit to clarify, as ever.

[Brainsample]

What exactly do you think the communists and socialists are going to do to you? Move you out to one of those communes they have all over the place? Put you up against the wall come the revolution? Do you think that's imminent?

ROFLOL. Just substitute gulag for funny farm/happy home and Commies and Reds for men in white coats.

Meant as humor, not as a commentary on mental illness, hence the word substitution.

hnzHtm1jhL4

[itsthatonegirl]

Constance, trust me, I know very well that I have an anxiety disorder. I've known that for many years and I have tried many methods of coping with it.

Lissar, I don't think that it's unreasonable to fear communism, when communism is real. It's not as though it isn't real. It's not as though there aren't plenty of horror stories from communist countries. Why would it be so hard to believe that it could happen in this country?

[snarkbillie]

Re: the organized sports

A lot of them are annoyed at how much time it takes (practices and games), and that the kid will have an authority figure that isn't the parents or God (the coach), that they will be exposed to kids who are not fundamentalists, that they will perhaps gain "team spirit" making them identify or even LIKE people who believe differently than they do, that they learn team work and values like helping others or yielding to others, and etc.

There is also the idea that by letting your kids have interests you are putting them above yourself which is a big "no-no" in fundie hierarchy. It's God, Dad, Mom, Kids. The idea that the family might be inconvenienced by taking a kid (out of 10 or so) to practice once a week and a game is just an alien concept.