Fundie stuff I do not get

[itsthatonegirl]

Signing off for a couple of hours.

[emmiedahl]

So are you against third-trimester abortions?

No. I added something above--that I consider birth the test of viability. If I give birth to a stillborn, it was legally not the same as a live birth and morally not the same.

Let's look at reality: women don't sit around getting stretch marks for eight months and feeling their baby kick them in the bladder and then suddenly decide to abort. These third trimester cases are all very unique, and I suspect some of them have been shared with you on this forum. I believe that *regardless of my personal beliefs* a woman has to make the right decision for her body without courts involved. A third trimester abortion generally involves a threat to the mother or a nonviable fetus, and I support the woman making her own decisions in extreme situations such as these. An elective abortion at eight months, that would bug me. I would not make that decision myself. But telling that woman what to do with her body legally will create barriers for women who will die if that baby does not come out. So I support abortion in all cases where the mother deems it necessary.

eta: I just saw you are signing off. So you will never respond to this probably after I put all this thought into it.

[formergothardite]

Emmiedahl/Formergothardite:

Emmie first. Since we are discussing analogies, I don't think your analogy works. I am not going to walk up to the person needing the kidney transplant and poison them or stab them or cut their body into pieces. They are already dying without my help.

FG: Yes, as of this time I have decided that I would support the conviction of abortion doctors, not the women themselves. And as for the whole "abortion rates remain the same" thing... I could be wrong, but it sounds like we are talking about countries with limited/no birth control access, which would make the data skewed.

So if I hired someone to kill my child you don't think anything should happen to me?

And in the other thread people were discussing the history of America when abortion was illegal, it doesn't go down. So if you look at history, it doesn't show that making abortion illegal will cause the rates to go down, it just makes it more dangerous for women. So your claims that if abortion was illegal women just wouldn't choose it doesn't hold up.

[Renting with Raggles]

I do not mind social support for families, contraception for those unable to afford it, etc. I went to school to earn a degree in Family Support Studies, and stuff like this is what I would be doing if I put that degree to work.

Finally, a concrete answer! :clap:

Most fundies hate universal healthcare like poison, so I've only just now got the answer to that one.

But then you had to spoil it all...

Childbirth isn't a medical procedure.

Colleges/ Associations of Obstetricians and Gynecologists around the world are gonna disagree with you there. I guess the assertion you made above would ultimately affect any free, government provided healthcare service you voted for. Basically, Americans would go to a clinic for any procedure from dental hygiene to heart surgery; however, birthing babies? You do that at home with Mad Meg, the unlicensed, dirty-fingernailed midwife! It ain't a medical procedure!

[formergothardite]

If you really think life begins at conception, then you are a horrible person to think women should be able to hire people to kill babies and walk away scott free. You are saying that hiring someone to murder a baby is fine and dandy for the person doing the hiring.

[emmiedahl]

Colleges/ Associations of Obstetricians and Gynecologists around the world are gonna disagree with you there. I guess the assertion you made above would ultimately affect any free, government provided healthcare service you voted for. Basically, Americans would go to a clinic for any procedure from dental hygiene to heart surgery; however, birthing babies? You do that at home with Mad Meg, the unlicensed, dirty-fingernailed midwife! It ain't a medical procedure!

If pregnancy and childbirth are not medical, I don't know what is. With the last pregnancy I saw (I think) 5 different doctors, a specialist in fetal drug exposure because of a prescription drug I took before testing positive for pregnancy, had probably five ultrasounds, several stress tests, was hospitalized because one of those stress tests was not good, had blood drawn so many times, and that is not counting routine prenatal care, management of gestational diabetes, or the actual birth and labor.

As a doctor once told me, the only thing natural about childbearing is maternal and fetal death.

eta: I'm sorry taxpayers. Just adding up the expense in my head is daunting. I promise I'll make this one join the Peace Corps or something!

[Wolfie]

I don't want women forced to have medical procedures. Childbirth isn't a medical procedure.

WTF? What planet are you living on. I have had students who have had mothers DIE giving birth to their siblings. Earlier today there was a very sad blog posted about a mother who is very ill, and everybody hopes and prays that she makes it from childbirth complications.

Childbirth can be very dangerous.

[itsthatonegirl]

Logging back on to quickly say, okay, okay, uncle! All I meant was that it isn't a medical procedure in the way that a kidney transplant is. Have I just been brainwashed by midwives or does anyone know what I mean by that at all?

If someone is poor enough (me! me!) to need their prenatal care paid for, then yes I am glad there are resources for that.

OK logging off for real now, going to check out a potential rental house.

I saw your earlier post Emmie and I will w/b when I return.

[emmiedahl]

Logging back on to quickly say, okay, okay, uncle! All I meant was that it isn't a medical procedure in the way that a kidney transplant is. .

Sure, they are different. Pregnancy and birth are MUCH more debilitating, painful and dangerous than a kidney donation.

[valsa]

All I meant was that it isn't a medical procedure in the way that a kidney transplant is.

ITG, I've actually donated a kidney. Though I've never given birth, if I got pregnant right now I would absolutely have an abortion, because pregnancy and childbirth would be too much to subject my body to.

Pregnancy and childbirth are harder on the body than giving up a kidney.

[formergothardite]

I really hope you come back and explain why it is perfectly okay for a mother to hire someone to kill her child. Sure, the hired killer gets put in jail, but the mom gets to go free. What about adult? Can adults hire someone to kill other adults? I mean, if a fetus is really the life you are claiming it is, then a mother having an abortion is no different than me getting someone to kill my six year old.

Yes you have been brainwashed by midwives if you don't think birth can be very, very medical. Giving birth, even if you don't have complications or need a c-section, is fucking hard on a body. At least for all the women I know. It took at least a couple of weeks to start feeling half-way normal. And then there are all the people who have awful times with pregnancy, the ones who vomit so much they end up with hooked up to IVs so they can stay hydrated. Or the people who get pre-eclampsia. Or the people who have horrible swelling. That isn't even counting in that at the last parts of a pregnancy it is often hard to even sleep because the baby makes you uncomfortable.

I don't know how long it takes to recover from donating a kidney. Does it take 9-10 months?

[valsa]

I really hope you come back and explain why it is perfectly okay for a mother to hire someone to kill her child. Sure, the hired killer gets put in jail, but the mom gets to go free. What about adult? Can adults hire someone to kill other adults? I mean, if a fetus is really the life you are claiming it is, then a mother having an abortion is no different than me getting someone to kill my six year old.

Yes you have been brainwashed by midwives if you don't think birth can be very, very medical. Giving birth, even if you don't have complications or need a c-section, is fucking hard on a body. At least for all the women I know. It took at least a couple of weeks to start feeling half-way normal. And then there are all the people who have awful times with pregnancy, the ones who vomit so much they end up with hooked up to IVs so they can stay hydrated. Or the people who get pre-eclampsia. Or the people who have horrible swelling. That isn't even counting in that at the last parts of a pregnancy it is often hard to even sleep because the baby makes you uncomfortable.

I don't know how long it takes to recover from donating a kidney. Does it take 9-10 months?

Most people I talked to before donating my kidney said they were pretty much 100% normal in 2-3 weeks. I discovered I was a very poor healer, so it took me 9 weeks until I was fully recovered. Still far less time than pregnancy and recovering from even a totally natural childbirth.

[Brainsample]

Is it a full moon or sunspots? Or a personal crisis?

Is it time to call on Alan and Rachel?

[Witsec7]

My DDs xBF was released from the hosp after 5 days when he gave his kidney away. He was on light lifting for a couple of months (so was I after my C section). He said he was free from any meaningful/limiting pain after three weeks. At two weeks his incision was really closing up quickly After a month he was gaining weight and doing light work outs. (He lost a bit of weight due to stress prior to the donation). In all honesty I pushed myself after my Csection, but it ached for a full year, and it was about 6 months before my internal components felt 'normal'.

[itsthatonegirl]

No. I added something above--that I consider birth the test of viability. If I give birth to a stillborn, it was legally not the same as a live birth and morally not the same.

Let's look at reality: women don't sit around getting stretch marks for eight months and feeling their baby kick them in the bladder and then suddenly decide to abort. These third trimester cases are all very unique, and I suspect some of them have been shared with you on this forum. I believe that *regardless of my personal beliefs* a woman has to make the right decision for her body without courts involved. A third trimester abortion generally involves a threat to the mother or a nonviable fetus, and I support the woman making her own decisions in extreme situations such as these. An elective abortion at eight months, that would bug me. I would not make that decision myself. But telling that woman what to do with her body legally will create barriers for women who will die if that baby does not come out. So I support abortion in all cases where the mother deems it necessary.

eta: I just saw you are signing off. So you will never respond to this probably after I put all this thought into it.

I agree with you that third trimester cases are unique. I remember treemom's story and I was at a loss to think of what else she could have done in that situation. I have a difficult time in cases where someone is going to suffer, such as treemom's baby. I watched an episode of 24 once where a hotel full of people were going to die painfully within a few hours because of a chemical terrorist attack. The counter-terrorist unit arrived at the hotel and offered suicide pills to all of the victims. I got into an argument with someone about whether it was okay for them to do that. My view was that yes, it was. So it's very difficult for me to say that treemom should have chosen to allow her child to die without assistance. What would have been the point? What would have been different other than extending the baby's suffering? But in her particular case, I think it crosses from abortion territory into euthanasia territory, anyway.

I can't say that I would support all cases when the mother deems it necessary, no matter the trimester. Other than a euthanasia-type case, which is a different topic all on its own, I think abortion should only be legal in a case where the pregnancy is endangering the mother's life.

[itsthatonegirl]

I really hope you come back and explain why it is perfectly okay for a mother to hire someone to kill her child. Sure, the hired killer gets put in jail, but the mom gets to go free. What about adult? Can adults hire someone to kill other adults? I mean, if a fetus is really the life you are claiming it is, then a mother having an abortion is no different than me getting someone to kill my six year old.

Yes you have been brainwashed by midwives if you don't think birth can be very, very medical. Giving birth, even if you don't have complications or need a c-section, is fucking hard on a body. At least for all the women I know. It took at least a couple of weeks to start feeling half-way normal. And then there are all the people who have awful times with pregnancy, the ones who vomit so much they end up with hooked up to IVs so they can stay hydrated. Or the people who get pre-eclampsia. Or the people who have horrible swelling. That isn't even counting in that at the last parts of a pregnancy it is often hard to even sleep because the baby makes you uncomfortable.

I don't know how long it takes to recover from donating a kidney. Does it take 9-10 months?

http://catholicexchange.com/2008/02/01/90528/

This is a link to explain the view on prosecuting the doctors only. They explain it much better than I could.

[itsthatonegirl]

Here is another link, this one answers many of the "what if" scenarios.

http://www.prolifephysicians.org/rarecases.htm

[emmiedahl]

You must have a lot of education and life experience to feel comfortable making that decision for thousands of women in thousands of different situations. But somehow, I doubt you do.

You also should have proof of when life begins before calling people murderers. In order for something to be murdered, it needs to be alive. Science and the Bible seem to think it is not, but of course your opinion is the one that matters, right?

eta: please give unbiased sources. anything with "prolife" in the web address probably shouldn't be taken seriously.

[emmiedahl]

The "doctors" at your link think that women should be forced to carry a pregnancy that threatens their life. Do you agree?

We find it extremely unfortunate that many pro-lifers have regarded the health of the mother to be a consideration in whether or not she should have the right to terminate the life of her pre-born baby.

[itsthatonegirl]

You must have a lot of education and life experience to feel comfortable making that decision for thousands of women in thousands of different situations. But somehow, I doubt you do.

You also should have proof of when life begins before calling people murderers. In order for something to be murdered, it needs to be alive. Science and the Bible seem to think it is not, but of course your opinion is the one that matters, right?

eta: please give unbiased sources. anything with "prolife" in the web address probably shouldn't be taken seriously.

Where in the Bible does it say that an unborn baby is not alive?

And I don't know that it is possible to share pro-life information from anything other than pro-life sources.

[emmiedahl]

Where in the Bible does it say that an unborn baby is not alive?

And I don't know that it is possible to share pro-life information from anything other than pro-life sources.

How about scientific sources? Does anything scientific suggest that the baby *is* a full human life? I would say the burden of proof lies on the side trying to take away rights (your side, that is).

Evidence that God is Okay with Abortion:

1. Abortion is prescribed BY GOD'S LAW as a punishment/test for unfaithful wives: The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...

And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

2. The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old: And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

3. The Bible does not count fetuses as people: Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

4. God sometimes approves of killing fetuses. Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

5. By Jewish law, if you harm a person, you get the "eye for an eye" treatment. If you cause a woman to miscarry or harm a fetus, you pay a fine. --Exodus 21

There are many other passages in which it is ordered by GOD that a fetus not be treated by law like a baby. But you know better than God, right?

[Witsec7]

We find it extremely unfortunate that many pro-lifers have regarded the health of the mother to be a consideration in whether or not she should have the right to terminate the life of her pre-born baby.

I find it highly unscientific that a physician would call a fetus, a pre born baby. The message in their misuse of terminology is pretty clear.

But I've got to ask its, if both she and her husband agree with this? Its my understanding she has children, would she be willing to leave her children without their SAHM and let daddy parent an infant and the remaining children? Does she have life insurance that will provide for her husband should they choose to sacrifice her life for that of a newborn so that he could be an SAHD?

This isn't hypothetical at all. Its possibly a future reality. My questions are all about how you would practice these values in your own life. They are your values by your own choice. You gave us the link outlining them. I'm guessing you are not good about dying in childbirth, I'm guessing this isn't a topic your family has explored over the dinner table. I could be wrong.

[emmiedahl]

I find it highly unscientific that a physician would call a fetus, a pre born baby. The message in their misuse of terminology is pretty clear.

The text on the website does not appear to have been written by a doctor, and if you look at their directory, most states have one doctor or none at all that have registered with this site. This suggests that most physicians, even prolife ones, think this is a quack website.

Great link, ITOG. Is this an example of the type of place where you get your information? :o

[itsthatonegirl]

The "doctors" at your link think that women should be forced to carry a pregnancy that threatens their life. Do you agree?

I'm not sure that's what they mean. If a mother's life is truly in danger, then yes, as I already said, I would support the termination of the pregnancy, as they would also:

"When the life of the mother is truly threatened by her pregnancy, if both lives cannot simultaneously be saved, then saving the mother’s life must be the primary aim."

ETA: Also, why do you put doctors in quotes?

ETA: Never mind, I just saw what you wrote above.

[itsthatonegirl]

The text on the website does not appear to have been written by a doctor, and if you look at their directory, most states have one doctor or none at all that have registered with this site. This suggests that most physicians, even prolife ones, think this is a quack website.

Great link, ITOG. Is this an example of the type of place where you get your information? :o

The lack of doctors registered here does not bother me. The site originates in Ohio, which is also the state that has the most doctors listed. I see it as primarily an Ohio organization, which has picked up some people from other states as well.