Fundie stuff I do not get

[Constance Vigilance]

Constance, trust me, I know very well that I have an anxiety disorder. I've known that for many years and I have tried many methods of coping with it.

So don't you think your willingness to jump on crazy "religious" nonsense might have something to do with that, rather than with the rightness of those ideas (or the danger of communists)?

ETA: I'm well aware anxiety disorders are very difficult and often can never be completely overcome. But part of learning to live with them is learning to recognise when your thinking has been taken over by the disorder, and your attitude to fundiesm suggests you aren't asking very relevant questions in that department.

[Guest Anonymous]

Lissar, I don't think that it's unreasonable to fear communism, when communism is real. It's not as though it isn't real. It's not as though there aren't plenty of horror stories from communist countries. Why would it be so hard to believe that it could happen in this country?

It's unreasonable because the Communist Party in the U.S. is both miniscule and not even remotely scary. How many communists have you ever met in person? Have you ever checked out their website to see what their goals are and how they hope to accomplish them? Or are you just afraid of a word while having no understanding of what it means?

[Constance Vigilance]

It's unreasonable because the Communist Party in the U.S. is both miniscule and not even remotely scary. How many communists have you ever met in person? Have you ever checked out their website to see what their goals are and how they hope to accomplish them? Or are you just afraid of a word while having no understanding of what it means?

And I think you need to ask yourself why you aren't more afraid of a facist/theocratic takeover of America, which is significantly more likely? You have been taught who and what to fear. Who is teaching you, and why are you letting them?

[JesusFightClub]

Itsthatone, I hope I can relieve you of fear #2. I am a communist. We are generally friendly. We are correct politically. Aside from that, we are also the least scariest people ever.

I am one of the more militant types you will meet - I am antifa (Google it) for starters - and I am still as terrifying as a very small kitten in a party hat. You should be more scared of the Tea Party, actual fascists and people like VF and dominionists who might have the potential to REALLY hurt your life than you are of a group of people who wish for your wellbeing.

[lilwriter85]

Some fundies are ok with organized sports. My family lived near a fundie lite homeschooling family that allowed their sons to play soccer and baseball in youth leagues. I think fundie lite families tend to be ok with sports. Tim Tebow comes from a fundie lite family. Hardcore fundies aren't ok with organized sports for various reasons which have been mentioned by others here.

Jehovah's Witnesses also tend to be very anti-organized sports, but I knew one JW family that allowed their kids to play sports.

[pomology]

I'm sick and curled up in bed reading fundy blogs on my mobile. And now have noticed some weird themes linking them, which confuse me.

1. Why do they all seem to think "organised sports" are sinful? They like hunting but any sport which has you playing in a team is suspect. Since the sports we have now are not mentioned in the Bible there is no prohibition so why are they bad? And why do American fundies seem to hate football (soccer) ? They seem to see it as unmanly whereas here little boys think football players are manly and cool and want to grow up to be one.

2. Why have the fundies never grown up from the Cold War age and have stayed terrified of communism and communists? Being one, I can say that there are very very few of us, we wield no great power and we aren't working in a huge undercover army to destroy America. Honestly I would have got it in 1950 though the picture would still have been wrong. But in 2012? And again how is this even remotely Biblical?

3. Why do they make up total fantasies about "don't you DARE say a WORD against the sin of homosexuality?" Obviously I'm not from the US but my understanding is that your freedom of speech laws are strong, and "even" in the UK you can pretty much complain about homosexuality at will. So I am supposed to believe no one in the US can talk about it? You may have people disagree with you but I doubt you'll be hauled away to the jail.

Finally, and related to the above:

4. Why do they not get that banning the stuff they don't like (rap, immodest clothing, women working outside the home) leaves the door open to banning stuff they DO like? All it takes is a change of regime.

Fundies are making me sad :(

1. Americans in general hate soccer. Don't ask me why. As for why fundies hate organized sports, I don't have a clue. Probably because it takes time away from the family or some bullshit like that. I don't know, I get the idea that the Duggars are big fans of the (American) football team of the University of Arkansas and go to their games and the like. They probably like the homoerotic undertones, but don't want to admit it.

2. People are fucking morons. The Red Scare was moronic and horrible (and pretty anti-Semitic, which I'm sure you know is my berserk button) in its own time and the fear of communism and socialism are nothing short of idiotic now.

3. I don't understand this question.

4. See number 2. People are fucking morons.

[Black Aliss]

1. Why do they all seem to think "organised sports" are sinful? They like hunting but any sport which has you playing in a team is suspect. Since the sports we have now are not mentioned in the Bible there is no prohibition so why are they bad? And why do American fundies seem to hate football (soccer) ? They seem to see it as unmanly whereas here little boys think football players are manly and cool and want to grow up to be one.

Team sports are bad because it teaches children to take advice from someone other than their father. God forbid they should discover that their father isn't the world's leading expert on everything worth knowing.

As to hunting, this line from the homeschoold boy in the movie "Mean Girls" says it all, IMO:

And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so that Man could fight the dinosaurs. And the homosexuals.

(just kidding)

[itsthatonegirl]

I am very interested in this convo... not flouncing, will be back. Taking my kids to classes and then going to the Children's Hospital after that, we need to see a specialist for my younger daughter's terrible GERD... :(

I'll try to return this evening.

[formergothardite]

What exactly do you think the communists and socialists are going to do to you? Move you out to one of those communes they have all over the place? Put you up against the wall come the revolution? Do you think that's imminent?

Maybe they will force her to not hit her toddler.

[emmiedahl]

Everywhere I have lived, soccer has been huge. In my current town, it is as big or bigger than football. But sports are expensive and they require parent chauffeurs. I think the real reason fundies are against sports and other extracurricular activities is that they just cannot do it with so many children and such little income. So they either have admit that there is a drawback to quiverfull or claim that soccer etc is not important, even bad.

As far as communism goes, I am not afraid of Communists or the Communist party, but I can see some reticence toward communism in general. It just has not worked out well in the countries where it has been used. I would not want to live that way. But I think the fundies use it as a rallying cry--it's the opposite of Christianity to them, and therefore something that must be feared. There is not really any chance of Communism taking off in the US in the near future, so it is not really something to worry about. I personally am more worried about fundamentalism, because I see it as bringing a similar end result (totalitarianism, economic tragedy, etc) and it is much more likely to affect American politics.

Fundies have some congenital inability to grasp that socialism =/= communism. I used to dislike socialism as a concept, I don't really know why. Countries like Sweden certainly seem more compassionate and "Christian" to me, I would love to see the US move in that direction. My husband has some objections, but he is not *afraid*, it's just another political preference to him.

[formergothardite]

1. The fundies I grew up with weren't against sports. I think the fundies we snark on are because they can't afford it and instead of just admitting that, they make it evil. It also exposes children to people outside their little bubble and you are less likely to want to stone people if you are their friends.

2. They watch Fox News.

3. They love the illusion of being persecuted. No actual persecution is necessary. They can turn anything into it.

4. They just don't get it. I've had conversations with people about that very subject and they just don't seem to grasp that fact.

[Dinorah]

Constance, trust me, I know very well that I have an anxiety disorder. I've known that for many years and I have tried many methods of coping with it.

Lissar, I don't think that it's unreasonable to fear communism, when communism is real. It's not as though it isn't real. It's not as though there aren't plenty of horror stories from communist countries. Why would it be so hard to believe that it could happen in this country?

It was (sort of) understandable to fear communism in the 50s and 60s, when the Soviet Union was strong and people were haunted by the idea of World War 3 but, as bad as life might be in Cuba or North Korea, do you really think these countries carry enough clout to spread their ideology worldwide? To be honest, in a post- URSS world fearing communism doesn't make much sense to me. Why do you fear communism more than say, a right-wing totalitarian regime? Ultra-conservatism is real too, you know, and regimes like Pinochet's Chile were just as nasty as communist ones.

[AnnoDomini]

I think the whole "no organized sports" thing has to do with both money and time, since the logistics of paying for and figuring out the schedules of say 6-9 kids playing soccer at different fields and different times might be a real pain in the arse. Also allowing your child to hang out with peers might lead to them making friends, learning about the outside world and becoming worldly.

This! Too much bother and money for most fundies! Plus, what AnnieC said.

[formergothardite]

I am much more afraid of the conservatives who want to make abortion illegal and stop gay couples from marrying than I am of communist. I know iamthatonegirl agrees with the first, don't know if she has ever shared her stance on gay marriage, but that probably is why she isn't as concerned with the fundie-right wingers taking over.

[Guest Anonymous]

Itsthatone, I hope I can relieve you of fear #2. I am a communist. We are generally friendly. We are correct politically. Aside from that, we are also the least scariest people ever.

I am one of the more militant types you will meet - I am antifa (Google it) for starters - and I am still as terrifying as a very small kitten in a party hat. You should be more scared of the Tea Party, actual fascists and people like VF and dominionists who might have the potential to REALLY hurt your life than you are of a group of people who wish for your wellbeing.

I hope the re-education squad that shows up to collect me is this adorable.

[Daenerys]

I am much more afraid of the conservatives who want to make abortion illegal and stop gay couples from marrying than I am of communist. I know iamthatonegirl agrees with the first, don't know if she has ever shared her stance on gay marriage, but that probably is why she isn't as concerned with the fundie-right wingers taking over.

I agree. From a european perspective the fear of communism is laughable when you have what we see as fascists (the tea party) being credible candidates for elected offices.

[Sky_Diamond]

Benjamin Barber thinks it is the fact that we are living in such an uncertain world which some people do not accept and have gone down to the Fundamentialist route to find path that is certain and controlled. Meaning that they don't have to think and accept this chaotic world like the rest of us. The fear of communism and now islam is a sign of this because these are signs that the world is still chaotic and evil therefore making them threats to their perfect safe bubble world which cannot escape the real world.

[Doomed Harlottt]

Constance Vigilance says:

As an Irish person it's probably best if I don't get started on this, but honestly, if anyone further back than your grandparents is from Ireland and you think you're Irish, please be aware that most Irish people of my acquaintance regard you with...amused scepticism? We find it pretty strange. If you were born and raised in America, and your parents, and your grandparents, in what way are you Irish? I'll take "of Irish descent" if that's where some of your ancestors are from, but I don't often see people say that. It's "I'm Irish-American" because one set of great-grandparents were from Cork.

As the wife of an "Irish" guy from Boston, I'll bite. I think you underestimate how much the cultural influences of a family or community's culture of origin sometimes persist in the U.S. Now, obviously there is some dilution of that culture by American influences and there is also some evolution away from the culture of origin. But there are still recognizable subcultures within the U.S. that are very much defined by where the members' forbears immigrated from. For example, it is quite accurate for Italians in New Jersey who are still very tied to the Catholic church and who still serve lasagna along with the turkey at Thanksgiving to describe themselves as Italian-Americans, a subculture distinguishable from other varieties of Americans.

I lived in Ireland for several months and I've gotta say that there is really something recognizably Irish in my "the gift of gab" my husband and his family seem to have -- the verbal cleverness, the zingers, the funny stories. It is amazing to me that this cultural trait has been passed down from generation to generation for the over 100 years my husband's family has been in the U.S. -- but it seems to be the case. He also attributes his guilt, practicality and stoicism to being Irish. (If I get too cuddly or talk about issues that are too personal, he always says, "I don't do this kind of thing. I'm Irish.")

[ems]

Fundie stuff I don't get:

2/ Going on and on about abortion while refusing to support the policies which are proven to reduce abortion (see countries like Esther's). I know they justify their position by saying they don't want to countenance sin, or whatever, but it's like - what do you really want? Reality shows us that you can have readily available contraception, free healthcare and social support for families and a low incidence of abortion or you can criminalise it and have equal or greater percentages of abortions. That's just the way it works here on planet earth. It's like saying you want to end world hunger, but because it's wrong to kill the sacred cows, you recommend that people invest in unicorn farms.

THIS.

[Constance Vigilance]

Constance Vigilance says:

As the wife of an "Irish" guy from Boston, I'll bite. I think you underestimate how much the cultural influences of a family or community's culture of origin sometimes persist in the U.S. Now, obviously there is some dilution of that culture by American influences and there is also some evolution away from the culture of origin. But there are still recognizable subcultures within the U.S. that are very much defined by where the members' forbears immigrated from. For example, it is quite accurate for Italians in New Jersey who are still very tied to the Catholic church and who still serve lasagna along with the turkey at Thanksgiving to describe themselves as Italian-Americans, a subculture distinguishable from other varieties of Americans.

I lived in Ireland for several months and I've gotta say that there is really something recognizably Irish in my "the gift of gab" my husband and his family seem to have -- the verbal cleverness, the zingers, the funny stories. It is amazing to me that this cultural trait has been passed down from generation to generation for the over 100 years my husband's family has been in the U.S. -- but it seems to be the case. He also attributes his guilt, practicality and stoicism to being Irish. (If I get too cuddly or talk about issues that are too personal, he always says, "I don't do this kind of thing. I'm Irish.")

You see, I was with you til the last sentence. He isn't Irish. I just don't accept that his personality traits are attributable to a country his family hasn't seen in a century, let alone him. He has never lived in Ireland, nor his parents, nor (I'd imagine, if it's over 100 years?) their parents.* Like I said -- of Irish descent, sure. Irish-American? In a place where there are as many people of Irish descent as Boston, and the culture has survived a bit more, that's a reasonable label -- and, as you said, it distinguishes him from other subcultures. [ETA]

It's the wholesale appropriation of "Irish" that is just weird to me. He isn't Irish. Irish people are Irish. He is (Irish-) American. I bet to any Irish person he would be pretty much indistinguishable from any other American whose family has been in the US that long.

*If his grandparents were Irish, then like I said originally, it's feasible that the connection is still close enough to mean something. It's beyond that that I start making the :| face.

Edited, naturally.

[polabear]

I worked with a person from England. He would get completely bemused when the rest of his in the office would start rattling off our ancestry. He said that people in England don't really trace their family tree much. Where in the US, its a major past time. And we're weirdly proud of what we find - for example, on my father's side, I'm Irish/German. (Although my Dad's mother was adopted, and we know nothing of her background, so honestly, even that isn't completely accurate.) On my mom's side, its all English/Scottish/German. My mom's side is fun - through my grandfather, I'm the 10th cousin to Prince William of Wales. (Which also makes me a cousin of Sarah Palin and a zillion other Americans.) I also can trace one branch back to the mayflower (which a lot of people can do).

I think its because for the vast majority of Americans, we're all from somewhere else. Our history is young - heck, most of our states are barely a 100 years old. When people settled, they typically settled in areas with their own ethnic groups. It isn't until the last few generations where there was any real mixing at all - and that was often just agreeing to marry another catholic of a different ethnic group. Marrying across religions can still be a big deal, depending on how religious your family is.

[Constance Vigilance]

No, I completely get the ancestry stuff. Of course people want to know where they're from. We discovered some really cool stuff about where one if our family is from way back in the 1700s, and I was well excited :D.

It's the idea that you are (German, Polish, Irish, Scottish, whatever) when you're several generations removed from the ancestor who came from the country in question that's weird. Yes, that's your ancestry/ethnicity. But if several generations of your family have lived in the US then you are (whatever-) American.

And people are obviously entitled to feel however they want about themselves and where they're from and how they perceive their identity. I'm just saying that from the perspective of a member of the culture that you're claiming/playing dress up with (as JFC mentioned originally), it's strange. Not offensive, not insulting. Just...strange. Which it is. So.

ETA: Like, I am Irish. But if I moved to, say, Canada and had kids, they would be Canadian. Ethnically Irish, culturally Irish-Canadian, I would encourage them to get dual citizenship if that's possible so they had options, and I would probably call them Irish-Canadian. But I wouldn't call them Irish, because if I wanted Irish children I would give birth and raise them in Ireland. And if their kids, or their kids' kids started saying they were Irish after having been raised in Canada as the children (and/or grandchildren) of Canadians I would start making my face again. Irish-Canadian, okay. Irish, no. There is a difference, I think.

[freejoytoo]

Why are fundies always talking about how they help the poor yet refuse to accept any policies which actually help the poor out?

That's something else I don't get: fundies constantly crying about the threat of Communism yet lauding the Tea Party, which is missing 'Mad Hatter's' in front of it. And Communism is completely different from socialism, the idea of Obama being a socialist is just laughable yet they can't be bothered to do it a bit of research. Which isn't restricted to fundies either, IMO.

I'm English and one side of my family moved from Ireland in the nineteenth century yet I don't think of myself as being Irish at all, and I find it a bit odd when Americans say they are Irish or Italian or something, especially if they've never been back there. It would also make more sense to me to say that you are of that descent.

[emmiedahl]

I don't know if this occurs in the UK, but in the US there is a tendency for ethnic and national groups to live together in a neighborhood and intermarry. There are people here who are 6 generations removed from Ireland but almost 100% Irish and raised in an Irish community. My husband is about 75% Italian and raised in an Italian neighborhood; he definitely identifies as Italian. It is a strange American phenomenon, but you have to keep in mind that most of us are here because our families had to leave their homes, not because they wanted to. So there is a tendency to recreate the home country as much as possible, and identity is part of that.

[Wolfie]

It's the idea that you are (German, Polish, Irish, Scottish, whatever) when you're several generations removed from the ancestor who came from the country in question that's weird. Yes, that's your ancestry/ethnicity. But if several generations of your family have lived in the US then you are (whatever-) American.

It is an American thing, but in the community where my parents live, there is a large population of immigrants, children of immigrants and so on from the country where three of my dad's grandparents came from. That community actually goes back and forth living in the US and that country. How would you label that group?

I think in the US we tend to leave of the -American, because it is a given. It is redundant to always add it when we're talking.