Fundie stuff I do not get

[Renting with Raggles]

I don't know why other fundies fear stuff like communism. I don't even know if they really "fear" it, or if they just see it as a viable future possibility. I think with many of them, it's more an attitude of, "whatever happens, we'll face it with God's strength." Man I wish I could be courageous like that!

If you fear something, you must believe that it is something that is likely to occur. Why do you think a global communist takeover is something to fear/ be faced with courage? Please address probabilities, not possibilities.

Did your religious leaders ever explicitly tell you to attempt to deflect requests to explain your beliefs with stories of personal grief? What is your church's position on dishonesty to unbelievers?

[polabear]

If you fear something, you must believe that it is something that is likely to occur. Why do you think a global communist takeover is something to fear/ be faced with courage? Please address probabilities, not possibilities.

Did your religious leaders ever explicitly tell you to attempt to deflect requests to explain your beliefs with stories of personal grief? What is your church's position on dishonesty to unbelievers?

Anxiety doesn't work with logic. I fear many things, and my logical brain knows most of them are completely unlikely to occur. Back when I worked in the Sears Tower, after 9/11, I was terrified that if I went to the top floor, a plane would immediately hit the building. Did I know that this was a completely crazy thought? Yes. Did that make me any less frightened? Nope.

[hapamama]

Apart from the stuff already mentioned, the main fundie thing I don't get is women complaining about femininsm without realizing, apparently, that they benefit from it many ways, by being able to vote, drive, read and write, express their opinions freely etc. If blogs had existed in their beloved Victorian times I seriously doubt that many women would have had one.

I think that the beauty of feminism is that is has given us women choices that we wouldn't have had before.

These days we have a choice to be a homemaker, the choice to be a career woman, the choice to go to college, join the military, or to have children or not. It's not automatically assumed that the goal of every young woman is to get married, have babies and be the domestic slave of their man while he's off bringing home the bacon.

I would never, ever raise my daughter the way fundies raise their daughters. I want my daughter to go to college if she wants to, to have a career if she wants one. I want her to be strong and independent and to know her own mind, and most of all, to be happy with her life. The same kind of things that I want for my sons.

[dairyfreelife]

Yes. However, when you cross into aligning yourself with religious bigotry, suppression of women, etc I don't actually care what's wrong with you that's making you do it. It is fucked up. Also, if itog hadn't posted all her previous mountain of crazy this might be a benefit of the doubt situation but she has, it isn't, and I totes agree with Lissar that she's trying to make it seem like you can't attack her fuckery without attacking her disorder. Not the case.

As a fellow sufferer I get to be as brusque as I like about this so she can't play me :D. If I told you some of the irrational things I was terrified of a while ago you'd fall over yourself laughing. The difference is I didn't turn up on message boards arguing that they were anything to do with the failings of the world, or what God wanted me and others to do with my life. Sort that out, itog.

Edited for fuck you.

Bolded mine: This. I have suffered from anxiety issues since, probably about 6, but I've have panic attacks since I was about 8. I have GAD and insane (I know they are crazy) phobias. If I said what some of them were and are, they would be laughable because they are irrational and I know it. Example: I hate crossing bridges-I have a paralyzing fear of one collapsing and being up high, especially when I have to go up to cross one, but I live in an area with a river-I have to cross the bridges. The likelyhood of going into the river is slim to none, but I fear it. The bridges are safe and continously inspected for their safety. I know why I have this fear though-bridges have collapsed before, but I am aware of it being irrational and I have worked through my anxieties and fears using CBT and some low-dose anxiety meds. Your anxiety probably won't ever go away entirely, because I don't think mine ever will, but therapy and meds can help greatly and they are made for people like you and me and others on this board. The commie fear sounds like what you've been told to fear and your anxiety issues are multiplying it. Your fundie beliefs are giving you a reason to make your irrational fears suddenly seem rational and others in the same league push those fears over and over and make things that are not scary-scary. I do think it was part of my pull to a few years ago. It does give fears seemingly "legit" meaning. But it's not legit.

Simply put: Your belief system is making your anxiety worse and you have to learn to deal with it like the rest of us with anxiety disorders have and stop using a warped system to justify it.

[dairyfreelife]

Anxiety doesn't work with logic. I fear many things, and my logical brain knows most of them are completely unlikely to occur. Back when I worked in the Sears Tower, after 9/11, I was terrified that if I went to the top floor, a plane would immediately hit the building. Did I know that this was a completely crazy thought? Yes. Did that make me any less frightened? Nope.

Yes, I am the same with bridges. After what happened with the bridge in MN, I think the bridges here will collapse. Is it rational, even logical or likely-no, but I am still terrified. However, using your beliefs as a crutch to justify your anxiety will never work. In fundie beliefs, it makes it worse because they make those fears, like itog's commie ones or school ones seem legit even when they aren't. I know my fears are irrational-the bridge one among them, but if I used a belief system that said "yes, that fear is legit, people do hijack bridges, they built that new bridge to test one like it out-you all are an expendable population after all-middle of nowhere Appalachia, who cares if it falls? They want to see how long it will last" it would not help anything, just justifing my already irrational beliefs and making them worse. That's the difference. You and I know those fears of ours are silly, though very real to us, but we have to work through them and do so without someone pumping fear into us all the time.

[Renting with Raggles]

Anxiety doesn't work with logic. I fear many things, and my logical brain knows most of them are completely unlikely to occur. Back when I worked in the Sears Tower, after 9/11, I was terrified that if I went to the top floor, a plane would immediately hit the building. Did I know that this was a completely crazy thought? Yes. Did that make me any less frightened? Nope.

You knew and admitted that your fear was irrational; however, you also were affected by an extremely traumatic event that actually happened. 9/11 was so shocking to watch (even via television broadcast) that it laid down permanent associations in many people's minds. I live on the 30th floor of a building and my ears still prick up when I hear a plane that sounds "too close". I don't feel anxiety, but this was never something I noticed before that day. We can identify and explain our conscious and subconscious thoughts.

itog claims to fear a global communist takeover, asserts that this would be an easy feat to accomplish - despite the fact that this has never happened - and offers no rationale as to why she believes that this could happen.

[emmiedahl]

I know all about irrational fear. Just to bring up an example: I am afraid of fish. I can be in the same room with them, but I cannot bear the thought of touching them. I did a huge research project involving goldfish and this desensitized me to the point where I can have them in the room and not be nervous. Yeah, it's that bad. I have trouble being in water of any sort, even a swim pool, because every time there is a movement, I immediately think "FISH!!!" in my head and get a very physical anxiety reaction. I do not like being on boats or airplanes over water because there is nothing between me and the fish. This is literally a sickness. It is a disorder, a phobia. For me, this is one example of an irrational fear; my life is full of them.

It is so irrational, and I know that. The chances of me being harmed by a fish are roughly the same chances of me being harmed by a Communist takeover of the United States. The probabilities are very, very low in both case.

I don't base my political or religious views on my fear of fish, and I would cringe away from anyone who did. Anxiety, it happens. But you cannot let it affect you to the point that you support bad people. When BP basically killed the Gulf, I did not support it. If someone told me that their political platform was to rid the world of fish, I would suspect they are mentally ill, even though on an emotional level this would make my existence much less worried. Communism is not one of my phobias, but I hope people who are irrationally terrified of it can see their error.

[Shoobydoo]

Stewart's the Scottish spelling, Stuart's French/English. The royal family back in the day used to be the Stewarts until either Mary Queen of Scots (who grew up in France) or her son, James VI (who became King of England as well as Scotland). Then they were the Stuarts until the English parliament forced one of them to abdicate for being an ebul Catholic (James VIII?). Well, the family was still called Stuart, but the monarchs weren't anymore.

Anyway, it's probably Stewart rather than Stuart tartan.

And that was probably more than you'd ever wanted to know. I'm a history geek!

Oh, no it's very interesting. Thanks for the commentary.

[celestial]

Trust me, I would love to sit for hours and hours in a psychologist's chair, spill my life story from beginning to now, and try to figure out some of the roots of this crap.

Why don't you, then? Even if you don't have insurance and cannot afford counseling, there are free resources out there to help people with unaddressed mental health disorders. The takeaway message of the month on FJ seems to be "THIS FORUM IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR COUNSELING. PLEASE SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP." Why people would realize that they have mental problems affecting their ability to function in daily life, and not pursue all available resources until their condition is treated is beyond me.

[JesusFightClub]

IT ARE MULTIPLE POSTS TIEM. I'm sorry!

ITOG, an irrational fear, tell me about it. I have one too. But it is very important not to make it a part of life or pretend it can be defended rationally. That way danger lies.

This is the difference between you and the other folk here. If anyone says "I do not like communism because…" they may well have a sensible argument. I would certainly listen to that person and take their ideas on board. But just saying "It is scary, OK?" seems like a little kid talking.

It's like when I panic over my particular thing. I am diagnosed with panic disorder and over the years I have had to learn to say to myself "Look. All is well. You are going fine." I certainly can't make any defence of my trigger. It is unique unto me and if I am honest, not logical. The fact that you are not in a place where you can say that to yourself does suggest medical intervention is needed.

Emmiedahl, I have a pal with fish phobia too! She was upset by touching a fish at a young age and she gets quite worried by seeing them (also cannot eat fish). I thought it was unusual but it is more widespread than I reckoned.

[celestial]

I don't base my political or religious views on my fear of fish, and I would cringe away from anyone who did. Anxiety, it happens. But you cannot let it affect you to the point that you support bad people. When BP basically killed the Gulf, I did not support it. If someone told me that their political platform was to rid the world of fish, I would suspect they are mentally ill, even though on an emotional level this would make my existence much less worried.

Quoted because I hope ITOG sees this and thinks long and hard about it. Well put! :clap:

[emmiedahl]

Emmiedahl, I have a pal with fish phobia too! She was upset by touching a fish at a young age and she gets quite worried by seeing them (also cannot eat fish). I thought it was unusual but it is more widespread than I reckoned.

Wow, I have never met anyone else with that fear! I think it quite rare. I almost drowned when I was a toddler, and I thought I saw a shark coming toward me (I was in a swimming pool, so I was probably hallucinating from lack of oxygen, or maybe it was a floatie). I think that is where it started, but I am really not sure. My grandmother thought that the answer to my fear was to throw me in creeks with fish, drag me kicking and screaming into the ocean, etc and it did not help anything.

I have several phobias, but this is the least rational, which is why I used it as an example.

[JesusFightClub]

PnC and Daenerys, at least Smeato was sober! You try making sense of a drunk Weegie, I can't (and I am west of Scotland, exiled to Embra).

Oh yes, and the VF intern would so be going to an Old Firm match. Soooooo. We would sit with the Green Brigade and I would teach him to sing "Up the 'Ra"...alright, that has crossed the line to revenge fantasy now, no? ;) But the atmosphere of an Old Firm match probably can't be replicated in the US. And the Green Brigade are fun, if, erm, exuberant.

[itsthatonegirl]

I love how everyone is taking my anxiety issues, which I brought up solely to explain a fear of communism, and everyone is saying that my anxiety is related to my other beliefs or my religion as a whole. I never struggled with anxiety issues until after the birth of my first child. I was drawn to Christianity long before that.

It was said that my fear of communism isn't as valid as a fear triggered by 9/11. But it's not like that. It's not like I have a specific phobia of communism. My anxiety is very generalized and can be triggered by many things. A windstorm or lightning storm can raise my anxiety. A news story can raise it. Losing electricity can raise it. The freeway raises it. 9/11 raised it BIG time. We were living right by Boeing Field in Sept. 01, so you can imagine how many planes went by daily.

I didn't tell about my anxiety in order to gain sympathy. When I initially wrote, "but I am a fearful person in general", my thoughts weren't going in that direction at all. I don't expect FJ to be a substitute for counseling and I never have.

And, no, Lissar, I am not attempting to convince people that my fears are real. I would not wish my fears on my worst enemy. I am simply trying to explain why my own brain can find it an easy thing to fear. I could do the same thing with my windstorm trigger. Do I honestly think that everyone is going to log off their computers, newly convinced to fear windstorms? No.

[emmiedahl]

Our point is that your personal anxiety needs to be separated from Communism as a political issue.

My anxiety also has become worse since having children. I understand that a lot of things can trigger anxiety without being a phobia (I get that, believe me). But the anxiety was still there before I had children. At some points, I have used religion as a soothing tool for my anxiety, to the point where I was very OCD about certain things. It is a horrible way to live, and I have since evaluated my beliefs with the knowledge that religion is not meant to be a fix for my personal fears.

eta: at one point in my life, I tried very hard to be Christian for various, complicated reasons. Christianity seemed to encourage a lot of my issues, with a rigid structure and the promise that if I do X, Y, Z in the correct order, God will make it better I won't be afraid anymore. I am very glad I gave that up. I did not give up on Christianity because of that, but it is a nice side effect of returning to Judaism.

[JesusFightClub]

Wow, I have never met anyone else with that fear! I think it quite rare. I almost drowned when I was a toddler, and I thought I saw a shark coming toward me (I was in a swimming pool, so I was probably hallucinating from lack of oxygen, or maybe it was a floatie). I think that is where it started, but I am really not sure. My grandmother thought that the answer to my fear was to throw me in creeks with fish, drag me kicking and screaming into the ocean, etc and it did not help anything.

I have several phobias, but this is the least rational, which is why I used it as an example.

What a horrible way to treat you! That is not likely to help!

My pal (and hopefully I can get spoilers to work)...nope, can't, please skip the next part if triggers are a worry...

She touched a fish on a fishmonger's slab for a dare and sort of realised they were real and used to be alive. She found them really gross and scary after that.

[itsthatonegirl]

Our point is that your personal anxiety needs to be separated from Communism as a political issue.

My anxiety also has become worse since having children. I understand that a lot of things can trigger anxiety without being a phobia (I get that, believe me). But the anxiety was still there before I had children. At some points, I have used religion as a soothing tool for my anxiety, to the point where I was very OCD about certain things. It is a horrible way to live, and I have since evaluated my beliefs with the knowledge that religion is not meant to be a fix for my personal fears.

eta: at one point in my life, I tried very hard to be Christian for various, complicated reasons. Christianity seemed to encourage a lot of my issues, with a rigid structure and the promise that if I do X, Y, Z in the correct order, God will make it better I won't be afraid anymore. I am very glad I gave that up. I did not give up on Christianity because of that, but it is a nice side effect of returning to Judaism.

Yes, this is true. I do need to separate fears from beliefs.

Emmie, do you believe, though, that all Christians are Christians because of fears? Or only fundy Christians?

How has your life changed overall since going from Christianity to Judaism? How long ago was it that you made the change?

[Guest Anonymous]

I love how everyone is taking my anxiety issues.

I believe this is one of the few honest things you've ever said here. You're an attention whore, so I bet you are quite happy that lots of people are talking about your precious self.

And, no, Lissar, I am not attempting to convince people that my fears are real. I would not wish my fears on my worst enemy. I am simply trying to explain why my own brain can find it an easy thing to fear. I could do the same thing with my windstorm trigger. Do I honestly think that everyone is going to log off their computers, newly convinced to fear windstorms? No.

You are either very disingenuous or very stupid. Possibly both.

[itsthatonegirl]

Lissar, there is no reason for you to be so filled with negativity towards me, to the point of having to call me an attention whore. I mean, really? I'm the one who needs to grow up? And why are you the expert on who I am? You have never even met me. IRL I could be the friendliest gal you ever come across. I have never given you a reason to have such animosity towards me. I understand that I don't have viewpoints that match yours, but so what. The fact that you use that as an excuse to treat me hatefully only makes you just as narrow-minded and judgmental as the fundies you despise.

[emmiedahl]

Yes, this is true. I do need to separate fears from beliefs.

Emmie, do you believe, though, that all Christians are Christians because of fears? Or only fundy Christians?

How has your life changed overall since going from Christianity to Judaism? How long ago was it that you made the change?

I do not believe that all Christians are in the religion because of fear, nor even all fundie Christians. However, I can see on a daily basis where Christian leaders make a purposeful effort to control their flocks by fear. I think that people who are naturally fearful will be drawn to more extreme versions of religion because it offers structure and the promise of safety.

I tried to be Christian beginning when I was dating my oldest son's father. I have always had this romantic thing with Catholicism; I came from a mixed-faith marriage and that was the branch I was most exposed to. So I gave it a chance, attended Church, followed the rules, etc. I met my current husband while still doing this. I would go to temple occasionally, hang out with Jewish relatives, read Jewish books, but I attended a Catholic Church and was close to actually believing it. But I just couldn't, and after a while it felt like a giant betrayal of both God and myself to continue. So I read a lot and thought a lot and prayed a lot and ended up coming full circle, back to Judaism, about 5 years ago. I was not raised religious so this was all so new to me, but it is where I feel at peace.

My life has not really changed at all except that I am not trying as hard. For some reason, Judaism is very easy for me to believe and to practice. Whereas Christianity was always something I had to work at and there was a whole lot of cognitive dissonance. Not to mention the fear inherent in Christianity--of going to Hell because I don't believe despite attempts, of not being part of the right denomination, of not doing the right things. That is really nice to just let go. I think because of my upbringing I will always feel like I don't quite belong in any organized religion, but I am in a very good place spiritually.

[formergothardite]

You started off here talking about how mean we are, how wonderful fundies are, wanted to delet your account because this was such a horrible place. You defended spanking your toddler, you want to make abortion illegal, and you, I think correct me if I am wrong, want to prosecute women who have abortions.

These are the reasons people have amimosity towards you. You believe vile things and try and force some of those things on other people.

[Witsec7]

Lissar, there is no reason for you to be so filled with negativity towards me, to the point of having to call me an attention whore. I mean, really? I'm the one who needs to grow up? And why are you the expert on who I am? You have never even met me. IRL I could be the friendliest gal you ever come across. I have never given you a reason to have such animosity towards me. I understand that I don't have viewpoints that match yours, but so what. The fact that you use that as an excuse to treat me hatefully only makes you just as narrow-minded and judgmental as the fundies you despise.

You do realize all of your posts (like anyone's here) are searchable? That once you post it on the interwebnets it here forever? That means there IS evidence on this forum that really supports you being called an attention whore? I'd say it started with your very first post.

[Peas n carrots]

PnC and Daenerys, at least Smeato was sober! You try making sense of a drunk Weegie, I can't (and I am west of Scotland, exiled to Embra).

Oh yes, and the VF intern would so be going to an Old Firm match. Soooooo. We would sit with the Green Brigade and I would teach him to sing "Up the 'Ra"...alright, that has crossed the line to revenge fantasy now, no? ;) But the atmosphere of an Old Firm match probably can't be replicated in the US. And the Green Brigade are fun, if, erm, exuberant.

That is very true...I don't think you'll see that kind of rivalry anywhere else in the western world. Let's dress them in green and let them loose in the Ibrox and see how long they last!

When I first met DH's gran, I honestly was totally clueless as to what she said. The good thing was, she had dementia, so she would repeat the same stories over and over...eventually I understood what she meant that "close the windy for de weans" meant and the like. But I would get so mad at DH, as he would read the paper and fiddle with ceefax for football scores while I had to talk to his gran, and all I could do was smile and nod.

I could post some early Billy Connolly youtube clips...now that was a thick accent!

[itsthatonegirl]

Emmie, thanks for your story. Please forgive my ignorance about Judaism if I ask you a few more questions.

You say that with Judaism, you were released from having to strive and follow rules, you were also released from the fear of hell. From what I understand about Judaism, though, there are many rules to follow? Also, what do you believe about life after death?

As for the whole attention whore thing... it's just pretty funny to me. IRL I am not an attention whore by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not what you would describe as shy, but I am definitely introverted. The phrase, "We haven't heard from you yet... what do you think?" is one that I have heard frequently in a small group setting. I don't behave a whole lot differently online than I do IRL. I only jump into the threads, or start threads, when there's a particular interest. I'm not on sixty different threads, I'm not here telling my whole life story, in fact I just now opened up about my anxiety after posting here for an entire month or so. And it wasn't even with the point of drawing attention to myself. I know that I'm a dork with all my crazy fears, and it's something I share with reservations.

ETA: I have been here for two months! I'm sorry but I just don't see how my grand total of... hold on...

ETA: 136 posts in two months warrants me as an attention whore.

[JesusFightClub]

Pnc, YES post the clips! :) That sounds like a nightmare with grandma, I had similar with an ex's gran, she said everything strangely cause she was really deaf and watched her telly with subtitles (so NATO was "see yon Natto? Dinnae ken whit for they dae whit they dae" while I was still wondering WTF "Natto" was ).

I also feel guilty because Americans on the thread probably think we're talking in code. Celtic and Rangers are the two main football (soccer) clubs in Scotland, they have a bitter rivalry which very often results in arrests of fans. The Green Brigade are a vocal and (left wing ) political section of Celtic fans. Celtic have an Irish Catholic background and Rangers a Protestant one. Celtic fans, and particularly some Green Brigade members, recently got in trouble for singing "Up the 'Ra" which is a pro IRA (Irish Republican Army) song. This is grounds for arrest at any Old Firm game which is why I thought it would be funny to have a VF intern sing it. ;)