*sigh* Spanking...

[CanticleoftheTurning]

So. I was expressing my displeasure with Focus on the Family on Facebook, when an acquaintance asked me if I thought spanking was abusive. In response, I typed up a nice long FB note, citing scientific studies and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and sharing significant quotes from the papers---basically, sharing my research. I didn't want to get into the whole philosophical/religious debate about child spanking and corporal punishment, because it's so difficult to debate that with someone believing something different.

A day after I posted the note, said acquaintance asked: Just curious and asking questions... if spanking is abusive and harmful... why did God recommend it? Was He just "wrong" and uninformed about the affect?

:shock:

Uh huh...I'm letting my mind try to wrap it's puny little tendrils around this idea before I respond. He's basically asking me if I thought God was wrong when he said "hit children." He's also implying that if I don't hit my future children, I'm disobeying God. Loaded question, much? Actually, I'm also trying to figure out exactly where and how he said "hit children" in the Bible. Probably in the Old Testament somewhere, and probably taken out of context.)

Sounds like I need to do further research to fully address that. I remember reading somewhere about a) how certain things that was prescribed or forbidden in the OT are either forgotten or "overwritten" by the NT or writings of theologians and b) that many people have taken whatever verse it was out of context in order to understand that it means "hit children." Most likely, whatever verse that was ACTUALLY said was "correct your children" but people took "correct" to mean, "hit" or something like that.

rawr. I'm considering calling him out on the loaded questions, before I even think about replying to that one. He does ask good questions sometimes, but sometimes I'm like, WTF? How the heck can people like him think that way?

Juuuust letting out some steam here. Thanks for listening to my rant.

[titus2_4u]

They get it from Proverbs 13:24: "He who spares the rod hates his son: but he that loves him corrects him."

They also overlook the fact that the term "rod" is used again in Psalm 23, talking about God: "Your rod and your staff, they comfort me," extending the shepherding metaphor in the entire chapter. I'm no expert on shepherd's rods, but they were the upside-down J-shaped sticks that were used to pull sheep back into the fold when they were in danger. Uncomfortable? Sure. Practical in preventing immediate danger? Yes.

I think a better application would be using force and pushing your child out if the way if they had wandered into traffic. Metaphorically protecting them from harm would include instilling good values in them and trying to guide them to make good decisions. I don't see any parallel for deliberately hitting them.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

Thank you--that helps a lot. I found some of the stuff I've read before, where "rod" is frequently misunderstood to be a tool for physically punishing children....now just a matter of putting it all together for this fella.

[titus2_4u]

Good luck trying to undo years of sloppy exegesis. Glad I could help!

[browncoatslytherin]

kudos to you for posting that on fb!

[CanticleoftheTurning]

Thanks, gals! He came back and apologized for the loaded questions--he realized it after a few minutes. So, kudos to him for that. Also, kudos to him for actually trying to understand why I have a hard time reconciling spanking with Christian principles. He said, :Yea i can see the argument. I'm curious to read why my side interprets the word our way."

I'm not sure what denomination he is--but some sort of smaller evangelical group. And I'm glad that he's reading up on it (and in fact, I purposefully used many evangelical Christian sites who argue that spanking is unbiblical.)

He doesn't have kids yet, but I sincerely hope that I might have helped the future kiddos out.

[snarkbillie]

They get it from Proverbs 13:24: "He who spares the rod hates his son: but he that loves him corrects him."

They also overlook the fact that the term "rod" is used again in Psalm 23, talking about God: "Your rod and your staff, they comfort me," extending the shepherding metaphor in the entire chapter. I'm no expert on shepherd's rods, but they were the upside-down J-shaped sticks that were used to pull sheep back into the fold when they were in danger. Uncomfortable? Sure. Practical in preventing immediate danger? Yes.

I think a better application would be using force and pushing your child out if the way if they had wandered into traffic. Metaphorically protecting them from harm would include instilling good values in them and trying to guide them to make good decisions. I don't see any parallel for deliberately hitting them.

Sheep are... for lack of a better word stupid. You can use a rod or a stick to nudge them in the right direction, if they're going too far away just put it on the outer side and they'll think "gee, something is over there, I'd better go back the other way". No need for force or heavy pressure or even poking them, any kind of resistance leads them to go another way. It's partially why people who follow the crowd are called sheep. Any time they face adversity, sheep just go the easiest way.

Sheep are also freaking scared of everything. Hitting a sheep is a very good way to lose all control over them as they flee you in terror. If nudging them with a stick makes them change direction, you can imagine what hitting them with one will do!

ITT: I spent too much of my childhood around sheep.

[browncoatslytherin]

Thanks, gals! He came back and apologized for the loaded questions--he realized it after a few minutes. So, kudos to him for that. Also, kudos to him for actually trying to understand why I have a hard time reconciling spanking with Christian principles. He said, :Yea i can see the argument. I'm curious to read why my side interprets the word our way."

I'm not sure what denomination he is--but some sort of smaller evangelical group. And I'm glad that he's reading up on it (and in fact, I purposefully used many evangelical Christian sites who argue that spanking is unbiblical.)

He doesn't have kids yet, but I sincerely hope that I might have helped the future kiddos out.

impressive! i'm so glad to hear that he seems to want to genuinely talk to people about their views and actually listen to them and think about it and not just try to "speak over" and keep repeating their views over and over as if that will get someone to listen. it's a good sign, i think!

[Conuly]

They might also consider that "Spare the rod and spoil the child" isn't directly God's words, it's Solomon's. It's instructive to consider what happened to Solomon's son, Rehoboam, who was such a sucky king that ten of the tribes rebelled against him, ultimately splitting the kingdom.

And of course, there's a plethora of childrearing advice in the Bible. How about "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord"? That would seem to mean "Seriously, don't smack your kids and definitely don't tempt them to do bad things just so you can smack them". (Even people who think they don't do this sometimes do - if you know your child hit his sister, why are you asking if he hit his sister? It's like asking him to lie to you! But regardless, that's worlds away from putting a cookie in front of your kid, then hitting them every time they go near it.)

[Happy_Anabaptist]

I always thought it was based on Hebrews 12:5-11.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

To "chasten" might be ambiguous, but "scourge" is pretty clear. It's basically saying if we considered it normal that our earthly fathers scourged and chastened us as children, why should we be surprised when God does it?

[snarkbillie]

I always thought it was based on Hebrews 12:5-11.

To "chasten" might be ambiguous, but "scourge" is pretty clear. It's basically saying if we considered it normal that our earthly fathers scourged and chastened us as children, why should we be surprised when God does it?

Jesus also said that if you follow him you should hate your family. Jesus also said that the most important commandments were to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love others......so hate = love?

Hmm.

[Happy_Anabaptist]

Jesus also said that if you follow him you should hate your family. Jesus also said that the most important commandments were to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love others......so hate = love?

Hmm.

The passage I quoted was from Hebrews; Jesus never said it. :) As far as I remember off-hand, Jesus didn't offer any pointers on discipline at all.

I used to puzzle over that passage and have concluded that it means loving Jesus so much that your love for everyone and everything else might as well be hate.

[snarkbillie]

The passage I quoted was from Hebrews; Jesus never said it. :) As far as I remember off-hand, Jesus didn't offer any pointers on discipline at all.

I used to puzzle over that passage and have concluded that it means loving Jesus so much that your love for everyone and everything else might as well be hate.

I know, but I just ignore Paul. You've come to the same rationalization of the hate verse that I did. I was just pointing out that perhaps everything in the Bible isn't to be taken literally. Maybe "scourge" was a flourish to illustrate a point?

[Jazzyjen]

I think Rabbi Schmuley(sp?) wrote a whole explanation on how the rod in this case was actually something else, and the sons were actually adults. I cannot remember for the life of me exactl what it said, but it's worth googling.

[celestial]

The passage I quoted was from Hebrews; Jesus never said it. :) As far as I remember off-hand, Jesus didn't offer any pointers on discipline at all.

I used to puzzle over that passage and have concluded that it means loving Jesus so much that your love for everyone and everything else might as well be hate.

Didn't you say you don't support trying to live by "old covenant" laws? Doesn't the fact that this advice is from the Old Testament make it "old covenant"? If you don't believe in stoning, why would you believe in spanking?

[emmiedahl]

From my understanding, the "sons" referred to in the old testament were grown men anyway. Not little defenseless children.

edited for riffle

[HijabiLady]

I was told that the rod was simply used to guide the sheep back into the fold if it wandered. The person told me that shepherds don't strike their sheep as you don't want them to run away in fear when you approach and hitting them would definitely cause this.

[emmiedahl]

I was told that the rod was simply used to guide the sheep back into the fold if it wandered. The person told me that shepherds don't strike their sheep as you don't want them to run away in fear when you approach and hitting them would definitely cause this.

Yes, I was referring to the scourging when I was talking about the grown sons.

My one year old is a sweet little doofus who does not have the awareness to sin or manipulate me. He spends his days pulling DVDs from the shelf and hitting his toys against each other between naps and nursing and diaper changes; the thought of "training" a little baby like that makes me stabby.

[fundifugee]

Since he replied to your well-thought-out and cross-referenced discussion with such a trite and vapid comment, why not reply to him with the Letter to Dr Laura list of absurd biblical commands post (posted on other threads a few times, but I'll re-post because it's funny too).

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination . End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia

[HijabiLady]

Yes, I was referring to the scourging when I was talking about the grown sons.

My one year old is a sweet little doofus who does not have the awareness to sin or manipulate me. He spends his days pulling DVDs from the shelf and hitting his toys against each other between naps and nursing and diaper changes; the thought of "training" a little baby like that makes me stabby.

Same here. I am owned by an 11 month old who loves nothing more than to be her own personal wrecking ball. The Pearl bullshit makes me sick and I feel it is time to shut them down.

[browncoatslytherin]

fundiefugee - i love that list

[Happy_Anabaptist]

Didn't you say you don't support trying to live by "old covenant" laws? Doesn't the fact that this advice is from the Old Testament make it "old covenant"? If you don't believe in stoning, why would you believe in spanking?

Um... Hebrews is in the New Testament.

[emmiedahl]

Right, but all of the references to spanking are in the OT.

[Happy_Anabaptist]

Yes, I was referring to the scourging when I was talking about the grown sons.

My one year old is a sweet little doofus who does not have the awareness to sin or manipulate me. He spends his days pulling DVDs from the shelf and hitting his toys against each other between naps and nursing and diaper changes; the thought of "training" a little baby like that makes me stabby.

Spanking a one-year-old is senseless to begin with. I had a hard enough time sitting in the waiting room at the health center a few weeks ago and listen to the babies scream as they got their injections!

[Happy_Anabaptist]

Right, but all of the references to spanking are in the OT.

What about the one that I quoted? Someone said maybe "scourging" doesn't really mean scourging, but that seems like a real stretch to me.