Mississippi's 'Personhood' Law Could Outlaw Birth Control

[doggie]

One of the huge problems I see with the pro-life movement is that it is not pro-life. If the mother's life is threatened, she should die. If her health is threatened, oh well. If her finances and/or the family health are threatened, ditto. And once those kids are born, they are at their parents' mercy.

If you are pro-life, that means you believe that a woman should be forced to provide 24/7 life support to a person she does not know and did not invite into her life, and pay for all of that care as well. Even if that threatens her own well-being and even her life. I just don't see that as reasonable.

It is not pro life because it does not really care about the woman or the children. it is about who is right who's beliefs are real it is about the idea not the baby. It's about being proven right in the legal court more then it is about the child. it used to be about the child but the child is just the excuse to force your beliefs on someone else.

[Brainsample]

My processor got hot twice and shut off when I tried to post on this thread today. (The content must be evil!)

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists accepts that a regularly sexually woman who is healthy, of prime childbearing age, and uses no contraception actually has 4-5 fertilizations per year. The harder part of the process, implantation resulting in a sustained pregnancy, is the difficult challenge that is less common.

When you are discussing a sustained and viable pregnancy, it is assumed and argued that life begins at conception when discussing the ethics of aborting that pregnancy. Medically, there is no pregnancy until that ovum implants.

That means that these young women who have been married for some time and have not conceived though using no contraception at all have been mothers several times a year. I've been married for more than twenty years with only two failed pregnancies. That means that I'm likely a "mother" to somewhere between 50 and 100 potential un-sustained pregnancy babies, just to pick a number. Should we all have memorial services for our potential babies that didn't take? J'Chelle and JB probably managed a couple of fertilizations (conceptions) between the birth of Josie and the current pregnancy.

And if that's the case, and this law passes, it theoretically would make it easier for the zealots to further insert themselves into our bedrooms by questioning contraception use (Did you use approved methods) or those politicians who have talked of investigating women who had miscarriages. With limited resources in most local governments, I don't see anyone actually prosecuting this kind of stuff, but such a law in Mississippi could be used to argue something more extreme.

[liltwinstar]

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists accepts that a regularly sexually woman who is healthy, of prime childbearing age, and uses no contraception actually has 4-5 fertilizations per year. The harder part of the process, implantation resulting in a sustained pregnancy, is the difficult challenge that is less common.

Yes, exactly - this is what women's bodies have been doing from the dawn of time. It scares me that people are trying to pass a law that would essentially criminalize a biological process, which would then criminalize us just for being women.

Scary, scary stuff...

[doggie]

And if that's the case, and this law passes, it theoretically would make it easier for the zealots to further insert themselves into our bedrooms by questioning contraception use (Did you use approved methods) or those politicians who have talked of investigating women who had miscarriages. With limited resources in most local governments, I don't see anyone actually prosecuting this kind of stuff, but such a law in Mississippi could be used to argue something more extreme.

I could see this getting used to manipulate a woman that you don't like or agree with. someone that does not like you turning you in. the thing is just so crazy it is hard to imagine.

[JellyHope]

This is all I came up with: :roll:

I have to disagree. Fetal homicide would only be sought by law enforcement if the mother was a certain # of months along. Yes it would be horribly sad and a tragedy if a woman was killed while 6 weeks pregnant, but the "Lacey & Connor Peterson" law wouldn't apply that early into the pregnancy. Abortions are only legal in the 1st trimester, therefore making the analogy null.

[Angri-la]

I am so glad I live in a sane state.

I have had so many miscarriages, I stopped counting. I can get pregnant, but they don't stay put. So, according to this law, my uterus itself should be imprisoned for not allowing a fertilized egg to attach. I guess I can have a hysterectomy and put the bitch in stir; never liked it much, no how!

Sounds ridiculous, right? So does this law.

[Brainsample]

I could see this getting used to manipulate a woman that you don't like or agree with. someone that does not like you turning you in. the thing is just so crazy it is hard to imagine.

Like nailing Al Capone era mobsters for tax evasion because they couldn't actually get enough evidence to prosecute them for bootlegging and distribution of ETOH under prohibition.

[Brainsample]

I am so glad I live in a sane state.

I have had so many miscarriages, I stopped counting. I can get pregnant, but they don't stay put. So, according to this law, my uterus itself should be imprisoned for not allowing a fertilized egg to attach. I guess I can have a hysterectomy and put the bitch in stir; never liked it much, no how!

Sounds ridiculous, right? So does this law.

I feel much the same way.

Just don't start bootlegging! ;)

[formergothardite]

Since you asked, my personal opinion is that a fetus is a life and human life is sacred.

I appreciate the feedback to my questions. I like to hear what people on the other side have to say, especially in a kind, respectful fashion. (something you don't see much of normally in discussions about abortion)

I'm taking it you are against abortion. Since you view life as sacred, do you also support all the government programs that will help the mother while pregnant and then the child as it grows up? I ask because almost all the people I know who view a fetus as a life, don't support those things.

[JesusFightClub]

I'd like to hear the response from members who are for abortion rights, to this statement by a mother from Oxford quoted in a recent CNN article.

"If a woman was attacked and her unborn child was killed, it would be fetal homicide. That is considered a person," she said. "But on that very same day in the same area, a woman could go and have an abortion and kill her child, and nothing would happen. So we have a contradiction, and that is what we're trying to fix here."

Yeeargh! I am going to have to agree with Jericho, for very different reasons. I suspect strongly we have little in common but this one confuses me.

I am pro choice, Peter Singer level pro choice, which most here are not. And this is a hugely confusing difference of law. I do not see how you can have a crime of foetal homicide while having legal abortion. Being in favour of legal abortion, I don't get how the two can coexist in the same jurisdiction.

The woman had something taken from her that she badly wanted, and she was physically attacked. Isn't that theft and assault? If the crime "foetal homicide" runs alongside the legal right to an abortion, could that not be used against a woman?

[meda]

Yeeargh! I am going to have to agree with Jericho, for very different reasons. I suspect strongly we have little in common but this one confuses me.

I am pro choice, Peter Singer level pro choice, which most here are not. And this is a hugely confusing difference of law. I do not see how you can have a crime of foetal homicide while having legal abortion. Being in favour of legal abortion, I don't get how the two can coexist in the same jurisdiction.

The woman had something taken from her that she badly wanted, and she was physically attacked. Isn't that theft and assault? If the crime "foetal homicide" runs alongside the legal right to an abortion, could that not be used against a woman?

I agree with this, actually. I don't practice criminal law, but when we discussed these fetal homicide laws in my Crim Law class, this possible outcome was considered a serious flaw in such statutes. Apparently, many of these fetal homicide laws were on the books in states long before Roe v. Wade and the legalization of abortion at the federal level in the US. They were never taken off the books, and were just not invoked by prosecutors until fairly recently. The other type of fetal homicide laws are the ones passed recently; either as a part of the anti abortion movement's state by state chipping away at abortion rights, or in reaction to awful crimes like the murder of Lacy Peterson and her almost full term fetus. This Mississippi referendum is a natural result of trying to prosecute people who harm a wanted fetus. A fetus is either a person who can be killed, and as such meets the definition of a homicide victim, or it's not. This kind of cognitive dissonance is exactly what the anti abortion political strategy is about; passing "feel good", seemingly innocuous laws that "protect" a wanted fetus, which can then be used to outlaw abortion.

[Austin]

Did this pass?

[doggie]

Did this pass?

Nope failed but it was close.

[treemom]

I'd like to hear the response from members who are for abortion rights, to this statement by a mother from Oxford quoted in a recent CNN article.

"If a woman was attacked and her unborn child was killed, it would be fetal homicide. That is considered a person," she said. "But on that very same day in the same area, a woman could go and have an abortion and kill her child, and nothing would happen. So we have a contradiction, and that is what we're trying to fix here."

It isn't in all states...and I don't think it is a contradiction.

[Boogalou]

Did this pass?

No. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/0 ... 82546.html

Cross posted with doggie, but here is the link.

[meda]

It failed. Score one for sanity.

[The Archivist]

I've been waiting to hear about this. Thank god.

[Austin]

Halle-damn-lujah!

We managed to vote down Issue 2 here in Ohio, which repealed Governor Ka-suck's law outlawing collective bargaining by public employees.

[sandee]

I'm seriously shocked and delighted that this did not pass. Right now results are showing 58% of voters against this amendment. I've seen way too many "Yes on 26" yard signs for the past few weeks and I truly thought the zealots had won over the majority of the state. Most of the the state's politicians (Republican and Democrat) vocally supported the amendment.

[pomology]

Yay for this failing, the Ohio thing that Austin just mentioned passing, and good very local election news from my hometown. It's a good election night, which is especially heartwarming following two years of (in my opinion) shitty election nights.

[treemom]

A lot of conservative people in ms thought it was too far reaching, but apparently it has been all over my friends' fb since it is local. I think I said it wouldn't dramatically impact abortion in that state since there is only one provider in the state who flies in regularly. It would have had chilling effects in other areas though.

And what do you do when someone in olive branch drives 10 miles into Memphis and has it done?

(just saw your post sandee...curious what part of the state you are in if you don't mind sharing....)

[sandee]

I'm just south of Jackson

[treemom]

Since you asked, my personal opinion is that a fetus is a life and human life is sacred.

I appreciate the feedback to my questions. I like to hear what people on the other side have to say, especially in a kind, respectful fashion. (something you don't see much of normally in discussions about abortion)

I also believe human life is sacred. But what I don't get is how this bill supported that ideal.

[Rosa]

HOORAY.

also i have to type something else for this to post. So AMEN.

[Austin]

ITA, treemom. They overreached. If they can't get something like that to pass in a red state like Mississippi, they're not going to get it pass anywhere. At least not this draconian of a version of it.