Religion Question - Morals

[JuJuBee]

Hello! After lurking on here for awhile, I decided to come out and say hello. I'm a life-long agnostic and pretty liberal. I've been reading this board both for the entertainment and because I like to "know my enemy" in case any of these people ever reach powerful positions....*shudder*

I apologize if this question has been discussed before; I've never seen it in recent discussions. It came to me as I was looking over other articles by that guy who wrote "Four Legacies of Feminism." He also wrote one called "Why Young Americans Can't Think Morally" and blamed this on (of course) secularism. In the comments section, someone replied with this:

"If moral standards are not rooted in God, they do not objectively exist."

The problem with that assertion is that your god doesn't objectively exist either--gods and superstition make as thin a basis for "moral standards" as they do for cosmology and physics.

Gods are convenient fictions because they can be relied upon to say whatever those who claim to represent them want them to say....

I completely agree with this statement. It's ridiculous to be "good" for a magical man in the sky. While I've had some of those depressing "Why am I here?" and "What's my purpose?" moments, I finally came to the conclusion that it didn't matter. I should simply try to enjoy this thing called life and help others when I'm able.

My question is: Do you think some people really *need* religion to be good? Without it, would some people just up and go on a murder spree? I'm sure most of us agree that religion has caused a lot of harm through the centuries, but could the whole world function without it successfully? I can't seem to come to a definite answer....

[meda]

Define “being goodâ€. I don’t think we need a belief in a god to be decent people, and I am not someone who needs to believe I have a purpose on this earth. I try to live a good life and do good work while I am here, but that is about it.

I do think some people (most people) need societal boundaries and rules to follow. The very fact that we as human beings throughout history tend to cluster together in groups for survival indicates to me that we have always needed some sort of social structure in order to get along and thrive. I don't think that religion needs to be that social structure for most people. At one point on time, a belief in a god or gods that made things happen, punished humans who did bad things, offered a convenient reason (worship) to socialize, feast and create art, and provided eternal damnation to people who did really bad things was probably a necessary and helpful thing to keep societies together.

As our understanding of the world has grown, the need for religion to exist as a means of social control has decreased. We have governments and courts and schools and other societal boundaries that exist outside of religious structures, and I think that is a good thing. The problem I have with religious beliefs acting as the primary means of social control is that religious belief tends to define good, appropriate behavior as not being “the otherâ€. As long as you are not gay, or eating shellfish, or from the wrong tribe, then you are good in God’s sight. Plus, the consequences for being not good with god are pretty apocalyptic. I think secular social structures, such as government, education, or even social organizations, even though they may have some foundation in religion, have the potential to hold society together in a much more positive way.

[singsingsing]

I am a Christian, and no, I do not believe that people need religion to be good. I know from first-hand experience. I was an agnostic, and I was a good person, and close family members of mine are agnostic, and they're good people, too. Now, fundamentalists will tell you that it's not about being a good person, because being a good person is not what 'gets you into heaven'. It's about accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour, or however they like to phrase it. But then, rather hypocritically, you will see them spending a lot of time and effort trying to convince people that you can't be good without being religious.

I believe that being a Christian has made me a better person. I also believe that if people are genuinely trying to follow Christ (rather than buying into religion for personal power or gain, or wish-fulfillment, etc) they will become better people. But religion itself isn't the reason for that. In fact, I think, generally speaking, the less 'religious' one is, the better. In my view, Jesus didn't come to start a new religion (Jesus had a lot to say against people who got rich off of religion, who oppressed people with religion, who thought highly of themselves because they were so religious, but weirdly enough he didn't say anything about being gay, or listening to rock music, or saving your first kiss for your wedding day). It's not about legalism. But fundamentalists have made it about legalism, to an almost insane extent.

Now, if you're asking, 'Do you believe that a person must believe in God to be a good person?' I would also say no. For some reason that idea scares fundamentalist Christians, but to me it just shows how flimsy their faith is. If they need to hang on to this idea that you can't be good without believing in God (and the God of Christianity, at that), no wonder they have so many rules and prohibitions. They're walling themselves up as a defence, because the slightest breeze of doubt or a different idea might blow their whole worldview away. :P

[Mark Dreher]

Hello! After lurking on here for awhile, I decided to come out and say hello. I'm a life-long agnostic and pretty liberal. I've been reading this board both for the entertainment and because I like to "know my enemy" in case any of these people ever reach powerful positions....*shudder*

I completely agree with this statement. It's ridiculous to be "good" for a magical man in the sky. While I've had some of those depressing "Why am I here?" and "What's my purpose?" moments, I finally came to the conclusion that it didn't matter. I should simply try to enjoy this thing called life and help others when I'm able.

My question is: Do you think some people really *need* religion to be good? Without it, would some people just up and go on a murder spree? I'm sure most of us agree that religion has caused a lot of harm through the centuries, but could the whole world function without it successfully? I can't seem to come to a definite answer....

You keep dancing around the whole "Heaven and Hell" issue.

I think religion is more about that.

There is a way of thinking, that says the earth is simply a test.

A test to determine your eternal fate.

[JuJuBee]

To Mark: Uh...sure. But I have no proof that life is any type of test. For all I know, we're just accidents of biology, and I'm okay with that.

I completely agree that many people (including most of us) don’t need religion to be decent people. But there are certain people who seem to fall apart if they can’t believe in a higher power. Sometimes I wonder if the fundies lie awake at night terrified that there just might not be a God or a heaven…or a hell to punish all the ebil non-believers. I think that’s my main curiosity; I’m wondering whether everyone on earth can function knowing that this life may be all there is—or if it’s just too depressing for some people (like the fundies) to handle. Otherwise, what would drive the Duggars, Maxwells, and other first –generational fundies into this restrictive lifestyle? What was missing in their lives to make them head in this direction? Did Jim Bob and Steve want to do “bad†things, and religion was the only excuse not to? I guess this is what I wonder when I’m not enjoying the snark.

[Guest Anonymous]

Mark is a mentally ill person who thinks he's Jesus and believes that he's shacking up with God, so I'd take that into account if I were you. I'd also put him on ignore, unless a little bit of crazy brightens your day.

Also,

[Deleted12]

I think that atheism promotes moral behavior.

Under the Christian system, if someone dies homeless and penniless on the street but they are "saved," then it's perfectly fine. Under the atheist system, if someone dies homeless and penniless then it's a tragedy and we should do everything in our power here on earth to prevent that from happening.

[bananacat]

I'm an atheist and I used to be a Christian. For my entire life, I have treated people right because I care about them. It's something that I can't help; I just have empathy for others. There was never a time when I needed a god or another person to make me have empathy. Sure, people can remind me to think harder about what I'm doing and how it affects people, but the caring about others is just always there. Some people will get around this by claiming that God put it there in the first place, but in that case it's still there whether I believe or not.

In reality, there are very few people who decide how to act just because of the promise of Heaven or the threat of Hell. Except for sociopaths, people do the right things because they care about other people. I've had people on the internet (thankfully never in real life) ask why I don't just murder everyone if I don't believe in a god who is telling me not to. And the simple answer is that I don't want to kill anyone. And I'll go out on a limb and claim that the very people asking these questions also don't want to kill anyone, and they would not be murderers even if they stopped believing in any gods. Most people will never face a situation where they would be perfectly willing to murder but the only thing stopping them is the threat of Hell.

[doggie]

if being good requires god why are so many religious people not good?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Sometimes I wonder if the fundies lie awake at night terrified that there just might not be a God or a heaven…or a hell to punish all the ebil non-believers. I think that’s my main curiosity; I’m wondering whether everyone on earth can function knowing that this life may be all there is—or if it’s just too depressing for some people (like the fundies) to handle. Otherwise, what would drive the Duggars, Maxwells, and other first –generational fundies into this restrictive lifestyle? What was missing in their lives to make them head in this direction? Did Jim Bob and Steve want to do “bad†things, and religion was the only excuse not to? I guess this is what I wonder when I’m not enjoying the snark.

I'm just a random reader on the internet (no inside connections), but my gut feeling when it comes to Steve Maxwell in particular is that he was obsessed with death, for whatever reason, before he went super fundie. It's like he was already obsessed and worrying about that, and someone got him with the standard Ray Comfort tract (the whole "where will you go when you die?" business). Now his entire life's purpose is asking other people that question and trying not to waste one millisecond of time that could be used in Bible studies, trying to be certain of the answer for him and his family.

I mean, this is the guy who sermonized about death at a wedding - pretty much lecturing the attendees[1] right out of the Good Person Test.

Though on the other hand he's written a lot about the temptations of women, how distressing it is to be in any situation where he might need to deal socially with women (fully dressed professional women in office wear, even) and he has extreme resentment toward his father who "threw away a good marriage" with his mom and broke up Steve's birth family. So he might be tempted, but maybe more to the mark he might be paranoid of being tempted. If he gave in, transgressed, even only in his mind, he's sinned, and then... where will he go when he dies? But for him, I think it's all about death.

[1] The wedding in question was broadcast on the Internet (which is where I saw it!) so surely there was an extra element of "we can use this opportunity to witness to the unsaved heathens on the Internet) but still. Just... lolwut?

[Guest Anonymous]

if being good requires god why are so many religious people not good?

And why are so many good people not religious?

[Mark Dreher]

To Mark: Uh...sure. But I have no proof that life is any type of test. For all I know, we're just accidents of biology, and I'm okay with that.

I completely agree that many people (including most of us) don’t need religion to be decent people. But there are certain people who seem to fall apart if they can’t believe in a higher power. Sometimes I wonder if the fundies lie awake at night terrified that there just might not be a God or a heaven…or a hell to punish all the ebil non-believers. I think that’s my main curiosity; I’m wondering whether everyone on earth can function knowing that this life may be all there is—or if it’s just too depressing for some people (like the fundies) to handle. Otherwise, what would drive the Duggars, Maxwells, and other first –generational fundies into this restrictive lifestyle? What was missing in their lives to make them head in this direction? Did Jim Bob and Steve want to do “bad†things, and religion was the only excuse not to? I guess this is what I wonder when I’m not enjoying the snark.

You are on the right track.

Some stories in Genesis are just "teaching stories".

Sodom and Gomorrah "just blew up" because of "too many homos"?

That is a teaching story, a metaphor to prevent homosexuality.

But who is to say God can not control his children that way?

Controlling humans is like herding cats.

Near impossible.

The teaching stories teach you what is God's will.

And you obey them

Or you will frown God's face off.

[BravaAmica]

You are on the right track.

Some stories in Genesis are just "teaching stories".

Sodom and Gomorrah "just blew up" because of "too many homos"?

That is a teaching story, a metaphor to prevent homosexuality.

But who is to say God can not control his children that way?

Controlling humans is like herding cats.

Near impossible.

The teaching stories teach you what is God's will.

And you obey them

Or you will frown God's face off.

Damn, son, you aren't shy about unleashing the crazy/

[Mark Dreher]

Damn, son, you aren't shy about unleashing the crazy/

The more of my words you absorb, the better off you will be.

However, a can of worms has been opened, and one must be careful.

As it is a spider's web you walk onto.

[Effie]

And why are so many good people not religious?

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[emmiedahl]

I am a religious person, so I am not picking on religious people here.

It seems like religion makes you more of what you already are. It is merely a justification. If you are already a nice, charitable person, then your religion will make you more so. If you are already an asshole, ditto. If you are searching for rules, you will find them in religion. If you are searching for freedom, it can be found there as well.

The Bible is huge and self-contradicting. Whatever you want to believe, you can find it. Religion has been used as a justification for some of the most heinous acts in history, but it has also done a huge amount of good. It is more of a tool and a motivator than a definitive moral basis.

[Kaylee]

My question is: Do you think some people really *need* religion to be good? Without it, would some people just up and go on a murder spree? I'm sure most of us agree that religion has caused a lot of harm through the centuries, but could the whole world function without it successfully? I can't seem to come to a definite answer....

No. I think most people are good, and those that would just murder or whatever without religion are the same people who would do it anyway, which is why some of them try to justify it with religion. I do believe in common grace, and I think God may be part of why some people are driven to try to help others and be more good, whether or not they have faith in Him, but I also think religion as a whole has probably done as much harm as good because religion tends to concentrate too much power and authority in the hands of megalomaniac assholes.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

And why are so many good people not religious?

This sums up my feelings as well. People (read: fundies) can cite all the religious charities and do-gooders they want, but I think people who do nice things "in the name of god" would be doing it anyway, and don't give themselves enough credit. And I tend to think that those who do bad things "in the name of god" would probably find another reason to do bad, though I'm not sure they'd find as many followers...

[flojo]

You are on the right track.

Some stories in Genesis are just "teaching stories".

Sodom and Gomorrah "just blew up" because of "too many homos"?

That is a teaching story, a metaphor to prevent homosexuality.

off.

ok, I know I shouldn't feed the crazy, but...

Ezekiel 16: 49-50

"49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good" (kjv)

Or

" 49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." (niv)

Interesting the the focus in the bible isn't homosexuality. In fact, nowhere does it state that Sodom was destroyed for that.

But hey, let's Find any excuse for bigotry, eh?

[duplessis3]

Alfred North Whitehead, that dreamy smartie-pants (mathematician, logician, philosopher, poet and loved his wife! be still my heart!) said (more or less I cant' find the exact quote now) that religion brings out either the best or the worst in people.

[Hane]

I wish I had the superpower to make all the ravings of my blocked posters invisible--even when said ravings are quoted by peeps I do not care to block. Second-hand Dreher-spew does not give me little tingles of joy.

[Mark Dreher]

ok, I know I shouldn't feed the crazy, but...

Ezekiel 16: 49-50

"49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good" (kjv)

Or

" 49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." (niv)

Interesting the the focus in the bible isn't homosexuality. In fact, nowhere does it state that Sodom was destroyed for that.

But hey, let's Find any excuse for bigotry, eh?

Well that certainly is a liberal spin on the whole matter.

But I assure you, Sodom was destroyed because of sodomy.

How about when the crowd from Sodom wanted the two visitors to be brought out so that they could "know them"?

And Lot's daughters were "no good"?

That sounds like a band of homo rapists.

[Mompom]

You keep dancing around the whole "Heaven and Hell" issue.

I think religion is more about that.

There is a way of thinking, that says the earth is simply a test.

A test to determine your eternal fate.

What would be the point?

[Mark Dreher]

You keep dancing around the whole "Heaven and Hell" issue.

I think religion is more about that.

There is a way of thinking, that says the earth is simply a test.

A test to determine your eternal fate.

What would be the point?

[keen23]

Juju- My lack of belief doesn't make me a bad person. I've also decided that I just get this one chance at living, and I sure as hell better make a good life for myself.

Personally, the idea of an afterlife or an eternal life holds absolutely no power over me. In fact, just the opposite. I can't think of anything more boring than living forever. And if heaven is anything like what some of these fundamentalists believe, you'd be spending eternity sexless, singing in a choir and at a church service forever and ever. Not appealing.

So I take my 80 years or so allotted to me, and hope that I can do some good, make some good memories for my kids, and generally enjoy life to the fullest.