Do you approve of fundy-lite?

[Bella99]

It is not up to me to approve or disapprove of anybody's belief system. When any group tries to establish laws telling other people how to live their own private lives, restricts and denies educational opportunities and health care for their children, or attempts to recruit my 8 yo by insinuating themselves into the schools by deceit, then I will not only disapprove of their actions, I will do my best to oppose them.

[Kelya]

Liking ceremony is not a good enough reason for me to support and participate in an organization that pushes values I oppose. I just wouldn't do that and I don't understand people who do. Where's their integrity? Why wouldn't they just attend a church that's more in line with their own values?

I don't know anything about the presidents church so can't comment on that one way or the other.

I mean, I'm as liberal as they come, gay, and a radical feminist and I attend Catholic functions with my family. We're also first generation Irish in the US, so dropping out of the Church would literally mean excommunicating myself from my family, who are all pretty sucky Catholics as far as social issues go.

It isn't just as simple of not wanting to associate with a horrible church that's done horrible things, its a cultural aspect that can't be gotten away from.

[Rosa]

All people of a group don't act a certain way. Just because a person has dealt with a person of another religion or group who is hateful - it doesn't mean that all people of that group are hateful.

Here's a question: if you have social contact with someone, say a coworker, and they DIDN'T act hateful or push their beliefs on you, how would you know they were fundy or fundy-lite?

[dawbs]

Here's a question: if you have social contact with someone, say a coworker, and they DIDN'T act hateful or push their beliefs on you, how would you know they were fundy or fundy-lite?

I think the cultural component is high enough to figure it out pretty quickly.

I mean, this summer I posted that I was 90% sure I was going to have a 'student worker' who was fundie-lite working for me--I hadn't had a conversation w/ her that stated her beliefs at that point, but I was still fairly sure she was fundie.

It was a hair/dress/speech quirks combined with her making goo-goo eyes at a boy (who happened to be my pastor's nephew ;) ) who leaned toward fundie that made me assume she was probably fundie. (I wasn't certain--after all, I have long hair and dress 'conservative' @ work--although w/o frumpers and with pants).

(FTR, I was right about her fundie-level. homeschooled, fan of patriarchy, etc)

[O Latin]

Liking ceremony is not a good enough reason for me to support and participate in an organization that pushes values I oppose. I just wouldn't do that and I don't understand people who do. Where's their integrity? Why wouldn't they just attend a church that's more in line with their own values?

I don't know anything about the presidents church so can't comment on that one way or the other.

I had to respond to this because I know exactly why (at least one reason). I talk a lot on this board about how I'm fairly obsessed with my church choir. I've been in the choirs at this church since I was four, long before I really knew or understood anything about religion. I don't believe in or agree with everything this church teaches. There are days when I'm not sure I believe in anything it teaches. But even if I woke up tomorrow and decided I was an atheist I would keep going to church because this choir is the most important thing in my life and I cannot imagine trying to live without it. I understand that some people aren't willing to compromise their values, even for something they like or enjoy (my sister was one of those people). But I don't think the fact that I'm willing to put up with some Jesus baloney that I don't necessarily agree with so that I can continue to participate in something I love makes me a hypocrite or means that I have no integrity.

Here's a question: if you have social contact with someone, say a coworker, and they DIDN'T act hateful or push their beliefs on you, how would you know they were fundy or fundy-lite?

It's possible to talk about church or religion without acting hateful or trying to convert people. I talk about my church in everyday conversation in a completely neutral context (i.e. "There's this lady at my church who blah, blah blah."). If I was having a conversation with someone and they mentioned church, I might ask what church they go to, and if they named a fundie-lite church, that would be a pretty good clue that they might be fundie-lite.

[margiebargie]

O Latin, it's not the Jesus boloney that gets me. The Jesus superstition on it's own is usually pretty harmless. It's the fact that a church can take a hateful stance, a person will disagree with that stance but still support the church anyway. Seems hypocritical to me. I personally couldn't do that.

I hope the church you attend is in agreement with your values. If not, I hope you someday find one that is ... and has a great choir.

I totally understand that there are some situations where a person is compelled to attend church. Like an atheist kid living at home with religious parents. There is no pressure on me to attend church or to appear to be in agreement with views I find odious. I am very grateful for that.

There are times I attend church to support loved ones - weddings, funerals. Supporting my loved ones at occasional events is totally different to me than attending a church I disagree with on a regular basis.

[Rosa]

That's true, church comes up in random conversation sometimes - I have a number of friends who do a lot of church activities, choir and potlucks and youth group, though about 99% are just mainstream Christians. I guess I did learn my one coworker was literally fundie (IFB) just because of a random church connection she mentioned.

So I have known 2 or 3 people in my entire life who I knew they were fundie despite them being nice and behaving appropriately in work or social situations. The rest - I only know they're fundie if they're inappropriately lecturing me about Halloween, getting in trouble for photocopying church lit at work, knocking on my door to give me a copy of the Watchtower, or deciding to talk to me just to ask for money for their mission trip even though they won't leave me alone with their children because I'm queer.

[QAF_Rocks]

I mean, I'm as liberal as they come, gay, and a radical feminist and I attend Catholic functions with my family. We're also first generation Irish in the US, so dropping out of the Church would literally mean excommunicating myself from my family, who are all pretty sucky Catholics as far as social issues go.

It isn't just as simple of not wanting to associate with a horrible church that's done horrible things, its a cultural aspect that can't be gotten away from.

You don't have to be Catholic to attend those functions with your family, do you? I have Catholic family members, and I've been to weddings, baptisms and first communions. I don't see that as supporting the church. I'm not a member of the church. I've never given money to them, and I never would. IMO, quietly observing rituals isn't the same as participating in them.

There are Catholics who, despite disagreeing with the Vatican on every conceivable social issue, still attend mass, send their kids to Catholic school, go through the sacraments, and donate money to the church. I have a hard time understanding people who do that. No matter how many individual Catholics are liberal and progressive, the Catholic church remains extremely socially conservative. It's also not a democracy. If someone gives the church money, that person is supporting the hierarchy. And the hierarchy is officially sexist, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-premarital sex, anti-birth control, etc.

[EmmieJ]

I was going to say "It's not a matter of whether I approve or disapprove" but that's not so.

I know that fundy-lite people certainly disapprove of me and my "lifestyle." I'm a never-been-married single mom, work outside the home to support my family, eschew any formal religion, am firmly for equal rights for all (including the right of gays and lesbians to marry whomever they wish), in support of a woman's right to choose and have complete access to all health care, including b/c and abortion, etc.

I had a long-time acquaintance/friend who is Mormon. We met because we worked in the same building and we became friends. She is a very nice lady and a loving mom. We both understood that we had some ideological differences but we stuck to topics that we could easily discuss, took lunch time walks, and generally were quite friendly. That changed when the Mormon church funded an initiative in CA to deny gays and lesbians the right to marry. She was a supporter of the initiative. We didn't argue, but I didn't want to spend any more time in her presence.

In that sense, I developed very strong disapproval of that person's belief system, to the point where I didn't want to be friends anymore. I guess that I do disapprove of fundies, lite or not (but that stems from the fact that some of them are determined to foist their beliefs on the rest of us.)

[SquirrelySquirrel]

Grouping people and saying all people of that group act one way or another is a form of bigotry.

All fundies, all Catholic, all Jews, all Wiccans, all athiests, all heterosexuals, all bisexuals, all homosexuals, all polyamorous, all whites, all blacks.....

All people of a group don't act a certain way. Just because a person has dealt with a person of another religion or group who is hateful - it doesn't mean that all people of that group are hateful.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. Religions and race do not belong in the same category. I can't control being born a white female, but I can certainly control who I affiliate myself with and what I choose to believe.

I'm perfectly aware that not all Christians/Catholics/whatever believe the same things, but (general) you can't cry because someone looks down on you for affiliating yourself with a church full of crooks and child molesters, or anti-women stances, bigotry, etc. If I did have some belief in a god/s goddess/es I think the only church I could stand be a part of would be a UU church. At least they make tolerance, equality and diversity a major cornerstone of their value system. You can call me a bigot, but yeah, my opinion of someone is going to decline rapidly if they tell me they are Southern Baptist, Catholic, and some others. Because like margiebargie, I'm going to wonder where their integrity is.

[JesusFightClub]

Here's a question: if you have social contact with someone, say a coworker, and they DIDN'T act hateful or push their beliefs on you, how would you know they were fundy or fundy-lite?

Tbh, the clues come out. Little things, like a look of disapproval. Mentioning various activities. There is no way to hide a strong belief, it doesn't work.

For example, before I was an elected union rep I thought I had done a stellar job in concealing my beliefs at work (all union reps who stand for election where I work have to declare political allegiance). A member one day said casually "You are a socialist, right?" Amazed, I said how did you know? He said "If you want to keep it secret take the wee red star off your jacket and stop wearing the Palestinian scarf on your neck in cold weather." ;)

Hadn't thought either was all that visible! The red star is tiny and a lot of people wear a similar scarf for fashion reasons.

I had met this guy once. I guarantee fundies and fundie lites are revealing themselves too.

[Rosa]

Smooth, JFC :)

I think the difference, at least in the States, is that like 90% of people are Christians of one sort or another. So a Jesus t-shirt or a cross necklace could mean "fundie" or they could mean "Episcopalian" or they could mean "my mom gave me this".

Here the red star would just mean you were a hipster, usually. You have to also have on an army-surplus coat and either not wash your hair or be a tenured professor for it to mean socialist.

[emmiedahl]

I think the Catholic Church probably comes out as morally neutral. They are anti-gay and anti-feminism, but pro-social justice in a huge and meaningful way. And they put their money where their mouth is in that regard. I have lived in a variety of places and it is always Catholic social services that are feeding people, offering low cost therapy and other services that actually make lives better. For every priest who is preaching against abortion, there are probably two who are saying it is wrong to vote for a politician who espouses harsh illegal immigration policies.

If every branch of Christianity was as socially conscious as the modern Catholic church, the world would be a better place.

[Kelya]

You don't have to be Catholic to attend those functions with your family, do you? I have Catholic family members, and I've been to weddings, baptisms and first communions. I don't see that as supporting the church. I'm not a member of the church. I've never given money to them, and I never would. IMO, quietly observing rituals isn't the same as participating in them.

There are Catholics who, despite disagreeing with the Vatican on every conceivable social issue, still attend mass, send their kids to Catholic school, go through the sacraments, and donate money to the church. I have a hard time understanding people who do that. No matter how many individual Catholics are liberal and progressive, the Catholic church remains extremely socially conservative. It's also not a democracy. If someone gives the church money, that person is supporting the hierarchy. And the hierarchy is officially sexist, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-premarital sex, anti-birth control, etc.

I think we're basically saying the same thing but in different ways. In Massachusetts there was a case where the child of lesbian parents was denied admission to a Catholic school due to the lesbian parents and they were fighting it out in court...I couldn't understand why lesbian parents would send their kids there, giving money to a church that hates us. I know I wouldn't! But I will still attend church as long as I have living relatives, and the parties that accompany certain days, seriously, most people seem to forget that St. Patrick's Day is actually a religious holiday and that we've spent all morning in church. I still do derive some comfort from it, in a strange way, too...definitely a Catholic in recovery, here.

[QAF_Rocks]

I think we're basically saying the same thing but in different ways. In Massachusetts there was a case where the child of lesbian parents was denied admission to a Catholic school due to the lesbian parents and they were fighting it out in court...I couldn't understand why lesbian parents would send their kids there, giving money to a church that hates us. I know I wouldn't! But I will still attend church as long as I have living relatives, and the parties that accompany certain days, seriously, most people seem to forget that St. Patrick's Day is actually a religious holiday and that we've spent all morning in church. I still do derive some comfort from it, in a strange way, too...definitely a Catholic in recovery, here.

As long as you're comfortable, that's what matters! If you enjoy going to church, that's one thing. It's another if you feel forced into it, or you're worried that your family will disown you if no longer identify as Catholic. Picturing myself in that situation, I don't think I'd be able to handle it, at least not on a regular basis. I've been to the occasional church service, but just as an observer. I don't think I could pretend to be Catholic even if relatives expected it of me.

There have been several news stories about children of lesbian parents being denied admission or even being kicked out of Catholic schools. I'm not sure what drives people to send their kids there, but there are some parishes and schools that are more accepting, even a few that recruit children from same-sex families. I personally know some lesbian moms who raised their kids Catholic. I guess being a lesbian isn't that different from being divorced or using birth control. It's not that uncommon to disagree with the Vatican and still call yourself Catholic, at least in my neck of the woods.

[emmiedahl]

It seems like there are a lot of people trying to change the Catholic Church from the inside when it comes to gender issues. They still believe in the theology, but not the way it is applied to gender issues and homosexuality. I know this, because my husband is one of those people. I know that Judaism has had to change and even fragment a bit to accommodate different interpretations (Reform Jew here!) and I suspect the RC church is moving in the same direction.

[QAF_Rocks]

It seems like there are a lot of people trying to change the Catholic Church from the inside when it comes to gender issues. They still believe in the theology, but not the way it is applied to gender issues and homosexuality. I know this, because my husband is one of those people. I know that Judaism has had to change and even fragment a bit to accommodate different interpretations (Reform Jew here!) and I suspect the RC church is moving in the same direction.

Does "from the inside" include the Vatican? Because that's the only place that such changes can originate. There may be some renegade nuns and priests here and there, but the Catholic church is not a democracy. The hierarchy isn't going to change their official stance just because most American Catholics ignore their teachings. I have yet to see anything from the Vatican that makes me feel hopeful that substantial changes are being made with regard to gender issues and homosexuality.

In fact, the Vatican has made nothing but negative comments about homosexuality. Here's their official teaching about same-sex adoption:

As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood. Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.

The Vatican considers my family "gravely immoral," even going so far as to say that my parents did "violence" to me simply because they're lesbians! That's the official stance, no matter how many progressive American Catholics disagree with it. I'm grateful for the liberals and progressives in the Catholic church, but I just don't think they can bring about any change at the top, and the top is where it counts.

http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?id=81913739-3048-741E-5405178212524077