SAHD agonises about potentially defrauding nature of English

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new post from childerowland

I like this blogger; she seems nice, intelligent, unjudgmental and open to the idea of fun. However, she is definitely fundie and, as such, cannot enjoy anything that involves male company without a whole lot of soul-searching:

'My biggest fear is that a godly young man may be turned away by the thought that I have touched the hands of so many varied men. Shaking hands is one thing. Being approached by a guy seeking a "partner" is another.'

thelastroseofsummer-michaela.blogspot.com/

Comments are...interesting. Predictably lots of comments pertaining to the 'fact' that women and men are 'wired' SO differently and that therefore it's impossible for men to dance without thinking of sex. I get sick of that trope. Do fundie men believe that women aren't attracted to men in a physical sense at all, and never think of sex? What does it matter if sex DOES cross a man's mind? It's just bizarre...they all want to get married, yet they are so scared of ever feeling physical attraction towards someone of the opposite sex.

It's sad that they are more conservative - certainly where dancing is concerned - than the average person in the Regency period to which she alludes.

Anyway, as usual, fundies come off sounding WAY more sex obsessed that their secular counterparts.

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ChunkyBarbie

Maybe some of these Fundie men need some saltpeter? JK!! It icks me out that Fundies are so obsessed with sex. I just don't go around thinking that every man I come into contact with wants to have sex with me or is imagining me nekkid. Call me "modest," but I am not that hawt. Though I am WAY hawter than ol Zsuzsu!

GolightlyGrrl

Does this mean I can no longer watch "So You Think You Can Dance?" Are the male dances too busy thinking about sexy time?

pearl

Of course fundies are more sex obsessed than their secular counterparts. Secular (by fundie standards) people take their sexual feelings in stride, they don't worry about it, they just feel it and go about their day like nothing important has happened. Fundies take every sexual arousal feeling they have as proof of their sinful nature. A man gets an erection, he's awful for having lusted - or that woman that he happened to see at the same time has defrauded him. Fundies are attuned to every sexual feeling they have - even if it's just a bubble of happiness in their stomach at seeing someone that they are friends with. Heck, even an innocent crush is giving away pieces of one's heart (and I find this funny - because people can crush on anyone even a new platonic friend). For a fundie, any type of physical pleasure is a sin.

It's so stupid. Especially when the men talk about how the beauty of their brides caught their eyes. It's usually the looks that cause the men to give these women a second look (for example, I believe Josh Harris was captivated by his now wife's looks and that is why he pursued her). Actually, come to think about it - I bet that is why the fundies believe men and women are wired different. The young man sees a beautiful fundie girl, approaches the dad, begins the courtship. The young woman hears about the young man's virtues (wants to get married and have her own household - because then she can lay on the couch while her older daughters take care of the kids) and says - heck why not (that is if she actually does have a choice and isn't manipulated by her parents that this is God's will for her life).

ChunkyBarbie

I can't imagine my husband deciding not to pursue me because too many men had touched my hand while I was English dancing. I don't whether to laugh or cry. It is just so foolish.

ChunkyBarbie

Excuse me sir, but your flamenco pants and ruffled sleeves are defrauding me!

theemeraldskull

Personally I see ECD as a hobby, an art form - an activity I love. Is it my entire focus in life? Of course not... yet to some people, it has become the only thing that sparks interest in gathering together as friends. "Dancing on such-and-such a day? I'll be there!" Could it be that this is the only opportunity for SOME (notice, not all,) young people to get as close as possible to the opposite gender? That dancing - even in such a none provocative way, stirs sexually-based emotions? These are questions I have yet to answer, considering I for the most part don't see myself struggling in these areas. Oh, but how concerned I am to see so much focus on DANCING. Its a hobby, ok!? A hobby . . .

If social dancing is a young person's only way of getting "as close as possible" to the opposite sex (ECD???), and using it as a way to stir up sexual emotions, then that is their personal problem, and no-one else's. Not to mention, to even find ECD sexual in ANY WAY one has to be hyper sexually aware/on edge. It's just a fun activity, no different than a group of people hiking together, or rollerskating together or playing football together. (guys and girls playing football TOGETHER???!!!??)

Are you protecting your heart? Are WE as "dancers" saving ourselves for that future "special someone?" My biggest fear is that a godly young man may be turned away by the thought that I have touched the hands of so many varied men. Shaking hands is one thing. Being approached by a guy seeking a "partner" is another. This isn't saying English Country Dancing is perverted, or that I am even going to stop. However I'll be praying - I've already done hours worth of deep thinking. And ask yourself what YOUR motive is. Why is it that you have a craving to dance all the time.

I fail to see how "holding hands" with a member of the opposite sex is going to be a 'turnoff' for any future guys interested in me. That I held hands while dancing ECD would be a deal-breaker?? The fact that any guy WOULD find that to be a dealbreaker would be a dealbreaker for me. :-P

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pearl

Hee hee ChunkyBarbie - Would you even WANT a man who sees you as used goods because you touched another man's hand? I mean, what type of control/jealousy issues would that man have? I think that the more this girl get's defrauded by touching other men's hands in an innocent country dance the better. Then all those crazy guys who think she's used goods wouldn't be interested in her.

GolightlyGrrl

I wonder what she'd think of me taking bellydancing classes?

::Clutch the pearls!::

maire

This, a thousand times this. Good grief, why isn't anyone bothering to educate these girls on "warning signs of a control freak who cares more about his errant beliefs than he does about you, so run the heck away!" I am sooooo glad I spent a couple years in Bible college so I could learn all about these dudes firsthand, before I got married.

ChunkyBarbie

I am a firm believer in test driving the car before I buy it. Luckily, Mr. Barbie is/was of the same mind. ;-)

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Marchpane

Good grief! To think that in my village school, in Southern England, nearly fifty years ago, we were unwittingly taking part in this shameful and damaging activity. Every time my little hands touched the hands of a boy, I was giving away a piece of my heart and endangering my future relationship with my husband by taking the shine off my purity! Perhaps I could sue retrospectively for being forced to endure this degradation? Now I think back, there was even a dance called "Strip The Willow". I thought nothing of it at the time, but it was obviously smutty in origin.

MamaJunebug.freekatie

At least a couple dozen young African women were raped today as part of the trauma of acquiring life-sustaining water for their displaced, homeless families. And they will be hideously abused again and again because that's how life is for them. And they are the same age as this doppolt.

All the smug, snide, funny observations I was going to make about her neurosis went by the wayside as I contrasted HER worst worry with that of her refugee African counterpart.

A pox on her and her stupid, vain, self-obsessed leaders and hangers-on! I'm seriously losing all sense of patience with idiots like this.

debrand

I never wanted to attend an English Country Dance before, but I have to admit, she makes it sound lovely.

The emotions showing in two cherry red cheeks aren't necessarily inappropriate, but would they have been there in such earnest had you not allowed your hand to slip into his?

The girl is very naive if she thinks that she can prevent herself from having sexual feelings for an attractive man. She is human and yes, she is going to have moments where random guys make her feel a rush of feelings. A mature person can handle those emotions/desires in a way that neither they nor the object of their attraction feels degraded.

maire

Can we add the self-obsessed poser dress-up crowd to this? Thx.

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bigmacattack

I take pole dancing lessons. Yep, she'd definitely approve.

blogreadingfan

she seems really young - is that a fundie thing? being really young for your age?

debrand

Do you remember the young woman who had the Tangled birthday party? She wrote this;

My brothers and I have talked about this subject at length as we have studied this area to figure out our preferences here, and the boys have confided that they could not with a clear conscience dance with a young lady, even innocent ECD, as it would be defrauding to themselves and their desire to keep their minds as pure as is humanly possible for their wives. They have said that even holding the hand of a young lady, (but *especially* if there is an attraction), is extremely tempting for a young man. Is it that they’re perverted? Not at all. It’s the way that guys are wired – the way *God* wired them – and that’s just the way it is.

Holding a young lady's hand tempts a man to do what exactly?

debrand

I love you MamaJuneBug.

lovefromgirl

That's a function of the parenting style more than anything. With respect to interactions with potential partners (sexual, romantic, what-have-you), I have found that fundie girls seem to be kept young on purpose. I suspect their sheltered upbringings stunt their growth into 21st-century women, which may not be a bad thing if they're going to lead 19th-century lives.

ChunkyBarbie

Debrand

We wouldn't want any of these poor young Fundies to have any independent thoughts or feelings! It just wouldn't do, they must be robots for Jesus.

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Zoom

Well Strip The Willow is not just defrauding in the name...you are forced to touch multiple men's hands *shocking*. I mean that puts you out of the running for the godly man right there and then!

Zoom who once lost a shoe dancing Strip The Willow at an ebul college ceilidh

blogreadingfan

so that is the parents intention? to keep them naive?

what happens when they get married or if they have to look after themselves!?

debrand

I think that the fundie parents mistakenly believe that being naive and a little mentally immature is a sign that a girl has been kept away from worldly influences and is somehow more pure than her contemporaries

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blogreadingfan

squick! i wonder what the men think of them - must be like marrying a little girl in someways.

browngrl

I would think the boys would prefer it - they get defrauded with simple hand touching during a ECD event - I think their heads (big and little) would blow off if a "Jezabel" *gasp* breezed into their lives

edited to correct a riffle

childerowland

Yes, due to a lack of life experience that one would normally have acquired by that age through working/College/mixing with people from different backgrounds/romantic relationships/living by oneself or with friends.

I mean, I still love reading a lot of children's books and young adult fiction. I sometimes watch kids' TV and films. But to have a completely unironic Tangled-themed birthday party for your 22nd birthday (in addition to an obsession with this movie) a la Alexandra of The Value of One? Does seem a little...young.

It's sad that these people are only allowed to watch children's films and period dramas.

TerrieES

The extreme measures that fundies take to protect their "purity" is what makes everything sexual. Used to be that you never saw ankles, so seeing them was sexual. If you've never touched a woman's hand, it becomes sexual because that's what you've made it. It's all about the lue of the forbidden.

bigmacattack

Not surprisingly, ankles drive Afghan men crazy (or so I've heard from some friends who've done tours in Afghanistan).

AmandaP

Seconded.

MuseMama

Gosh, all the girls in the Jane Austen novels went dancing. And still managed to find suitable husbands. I thought Jane Austen was a guide-to-living for a lot of fundies?

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AthenaC

When I was in high school all the really straight, smart, educated kids did waltzing on the weekends. Like, that was the big social activity for kids who didn't drink or screw.

It's a weird contradiction in fundie culture that they are so obsessed with managing their emotions that they never put themselves in the position to feel emotions in the first place.

And as a third random thought, how awful it must be to meet someone you're attracted to where the socially appropriate thing to do is never approach the person and stay as far away as possible.

duplessis3

But those guys weren''t Godly. Mr Bennet never transferred his headship to Mr. Darcy.

bb

So, god wires boys to react sexually and then tells them it's wrong to do so. Yea, that's a god I'd want to worship.

snarkykitty

So what happens when the manly-men touch hands during the Spanish waltz? (If you use the DANCING tag from the right hand side, then scroll down a few videos on the page to see that one). Surely, men touching hands must lead to becoming on of teh gayz!

Huge-assed eye roll. Oh, to have such problems as to whether to touch a boy's hand for three seconds!!

masagoroll

It's just so weird to me how these people seem to think even having innocent crushes and flirtations and attractions is SO bad. They make everything evil.

How are you supposed to go straight from never even having a crush to being IN LOVE with your husband?

I think there must be a lot of self-delusion going on.

pearl

I find it interesting that these Christian fundies think that it's God's will to make more rules for themselves. This is what the pharisees supposedly did to the old testament laws. The way I was taught, Jesus came to free us from the law and having to try and live by rules. We're suppose to be made holy through Jesus' gift on the cross. (BTW, I find it weird how I, as a fundie, did the same thing). These people aren't saved by grace - they're saved by doing everything the way it's suppose to be. They have fleshed out scriptures in a way that is detrimental and oppressive for a human to live. They make everything a sin and have stripped away a woman's right to be an individual.

These oh-so-holy fundie people are the most selfish, self-absorbed people I know. It's all about the fundie's sin, blowing up their sin in such a way to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Oh look at me, I TOUCHED a man's hand, I am unclean - look at what a horrible sinner I am - and look at how I feel so bad about it. Focusing on one's "sin" so much is an excuse to not have to serve like Jesus served the community - they are too absorbed with making sure that they are "pure" that they ignore the needy of the world. What's worse is, they don't even realize it. They are so brain-washed and deceived into their way of thinking they don't realize how SELFISH they are.

emmiedahl

If he starts calling you 'canteen boy', you'll know you've gone too far.

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SnarkyJan

The only men who would find these traits appealing are fundie types themselves. I can't see a normal man wanting to be burdened with an eternal child.

clarinetpower

She's seen Pride and Prejudice with Colin *HOTTY MCHOTSALOT* Firth.

Do you remember the scene where he dives in the lake? I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it.

And she REALLY thinks some zitty homeschooler touching her hand is more sinful that watching that gorgeous hunk of man flesh in tight riding breeches on a horse and...

Excuse me. Be right back.

ChunkyBarbie

Clarinetpower, you just defrauded me!

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AtroposHeart

*sigh* Do fundie men think of anything besides sex

Alecto

No, and its all the woman's fault.

Wolfie

What I don't get about this is that when I do folk dancing I'm totally counting and thinking about the moves and not really paying attention to my partners other than to make sure that I'm in step with them. I totally don't know how it is defrauding- and last time I went out it was baltic and middle eastern stuff, so there were some hip moves in there too!

CJ007.exjehovahswitne...

Holding hands to square dance is corrupting? According to this logic--if a woman bumps into a man on the subway, is she defrauded? Or is he?

alphaeta08

Oh my GAAAAAAWD DEFRAUDED!!!!!! She better not have seen P&P '95, since it's basically porn for women...

MuseMama

My husband knows that's my favorite movie scene of all time. I have a thing for pasty white Englishmen. Which is odd considering I'm married to a Chicano.

Annette

Is this the first time we've seen women physically defrauded by men?! She mentioned sexually-based emotions, in reference to the female kind!

makepeace

OMG. I would consider Latin dancing defrauding, but English Country Dancing??

Someone tell her about Irish dancing, surely that woud be ok? (as long as you are not being defrauded by Michael Flatley)

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makepeace

She has seen North and South with Richard Armitage as John Thornton. This is far worse, her future husband should be extremely worried. Any women who watches North and South is defrauded by his voice and look to the highest degree - there is no going back or being pure after hearing "Look back at me".

edit. look at her blog post about RA. She is in love. Sorry headships, this young lady is defrauded completely by a fictional character.

blogreadingfan

weird so touching a boy's hand is bad but fantasising over a load of fictional characters if good? not even just one fictional character but lots of them! lol

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Shina

I really love the one comment from Johnathan, I think? He's a 16 year old homeschooler who seems to think that the Bible forbids him from ever touching a woman...

Johnny hun, I really feel sorry for your "future wife" if you are that repressed. Ugh.

defrauding

Deleted. I'm holding off on the snark... for now.

Jencendiary

I just read her site. She reminds me of me, when I was a little younger than she was. The blessing is that while we had the internet, blogs were not the thing. So, all my youthful foolishness took much less concrete form.

blogreadingfan

are the men / boys kept young then? cos they would suddenly have to be adult and responsible as soon as they got married.

Doomed Harlot

The blogger is quite right to be worried. How could any one NOT see her as a used-up whore with all those men touching her while being provoked by her slutty English Country Dancing. I fear she is ruined for life. She is the kind of girl who is fun to do the Virginia Reel with, but not to marry!

MamaJunebug.freekatie

So clearly stated about the oppressiveness. Thank you for your entire post.

ETA: I visited her blog & was surprised to see her bodice designed to give a decided feel of voluptuousness, as well as how many photos she's featured with "come hither" stares & pouts. "you better look -- but DONNNNN'T touch!" came to mind.

Poor, stupid, oppressed & oppressing kid. She's as much to be pitied as scorned.

browngrl

love it!

Dinorah

I noticed that too. Very ironic. It's also ironic that she puts sexy photos of actors on her blog and presumably there's nothing remotely "defrauding" about that because they're in costume and females don't get defrauded.

However, she seems relatively normal compared to other fundies. At least she's got some interests like movies and Les Miserables (though sadly she feels the need to say she doesn't agree with everything on the show!). I'm curious about her background as well, her mother's Italian-born apparently, not really the standard type for Protestant-style fundiesm.

ems

A very interesting look into why these ladies are so into Jane Austen type socialization, what with her discussion of the man leading and the woman following in this style of dance (blech). She does seem like a nice girl, though, and more interesting/individual than most fundie "maidens." Any man who would reject her because she has touched the hands of many men (sounds absolutely ridiculous when you think of it) isn't worth her affections.

ems

Haven't read the rest of the thread, but I know a lot of you FJ-ites are thanking her for posting the (yummily defrauding) picture of Mr. Colin Firth on her entry . I bet she didn't consider how many women she would be "defrauding," given that women neeeever eveer experience physical attraction.

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theemeraldskull

Hahaha, ems! And everyone else who noted her... interesting... ideals to both shun "appearances of evil" such as touching too many men's hands, yet at the same time is totally enamored with fictional heroes and their ideals... which one is more defrauded, really? I have noticed that a lot of young homeschooled fundie/fundie-lite girls that I know are so boy crazy, even into their late teens/early twenties, that they seem to act more like 13 year olds than 18+.... Her younger sister is much the same way. But, they have no brothers, so I think that may add also to the ideals/image of men they have created in their minds.... :-P

higgledypiggledy

This cracked me up since my hubbie and I are going to a gender neutral PRIDE english counrty dance next Friday. Wonder what she would think of my hubbie and I touching so many opposit gendered and same gendered hands. HaHaHa

knitwit

Every time she mentions "ECD" in the post it sounds like some kind of medical disorder to me. (Especially one with "erectile" in the name )

Get over yourself people; if you didn't have such a warped view of human sexuality, this wouldn't be a "stumbling block" or so charged with sexual tension. It seems like with some of these blogs, they just keep moving the line back more and more as to what is too risque, removing so many things from their lives that could otherwise be enjoyable under the guise of being modest.

DaBuddha

just fucking stupid..

clarinetpower

(picture did not copy, but it was handsome)

Jencendiary

I can't bring myself to snark too hard on her. We all believed DUMB things when we were 16.

Once, we convinced our school's Standard Issue Blonde Cheerleader that if she swallowed after oral sex, she could have a baby in her throat. Being concerned that English Country Dance might be defrauding is about 74% less dumb than that.

I do like her Susan costume. #costume geek

theemeraldskull

She is actually 20, and her next youngest sister is 18.

And yes, we were all pretty dumb at 16, the age of knowing everything. XD I love costumes, too! I think she's adorable... plus she is actually really nice. So while I disagree with most of what she believes (especially regarding men/women/SAHD's/relationships), she is not a harmful voice in the fundie world. :-)

[fundies_like_zombies]

still think it is odd that she can have all these gushy posts over heros and cartoons but touching a REAL boys hand is bad.

[emeraldskull]

still think it is odd that she can have all these gushy posts over heros and cartoons but touching a REAL boys hand is bad.

Yeah, I know what you mean... like how is it less defrauding to gawk over uber manly literary heroes than to graze hands with multiple boys/men in a country dance??? LOLOL

[Alecto]

I have a theory.

Maybe she defrauded herself watching Futurama and thinks that is how babies are made?

(For those who don't watch the show, one of the alien characters, Kif, got pregnant by accidentally holding another character's hand)