2020 Election Fallout 15: More Information Is Being Revealed About The Big Lie

[Howl]

Ari Melber noted that the very first part of the hearing was very lawyer-ly wrangling (parsing, splitting hairs), which, to lawyers, is a perfectly normal lawyer-ly activity; to many/most viewers is was not compelling. 

At one point (perhaps it was Jacob) one of the committee members asked him how his faith had sustained him during the insurrection.  It was obviously an unexpected question and Jacob answered that it was incredibly important. 

I suspect there was a whole lot of praying going on as the mob got closer and closer and it became apparent that Pence and everyone with him was in, literally, mortal danger.  I assume everyone in Pence's orbit is evangelical Christian or at least a practicing, church-attending Xtian. 

The Pence family wasn't happy (understatement) that Trump did at no point give a shit about their welfare as the insurrection raged.  A perfect example of Trump's complete inability to care about anything but narcissistic supply and to brutally shit on people he perceives as betrayers.

Had insurrectionists actually gotten to Pence (and Trump hoped they would) Trump would have been pleased.  Which leads me to believe that we have not even gotten close to understanding Trump's capacity for evil. Make no mistake - he's inherently  cruel, morally vacant and capable of the most vile acts, up to and including rape, torture and murder. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Howl

[fraurosena]

5 minutes ago, Howl said:

I suspect there was a whole lot of praying going on

You are correct. During the hearing they showed a picture of Pence praying after the siege was over with McConnell and a third person I didn't recognize before they moved on to the next pic. I haven't found it yet, but when I do I'll post it here.

[AlmostSavedAtTacoBell]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

The Pence family wasn't happy (understatement) that Trump did at no point give a shit about their welfare as the insurrection raged.  A perfect example of Trump's complete inability to care about anything but narcissistic supply and to brutally shit on people he perceives as betrayers.

Had insurrectionists actually gotten to Pence (and Trump hoped they would) Trump would have been pleased.  Which leads me to believe that we have not even gotten close to understanding Trump's capacity for evil. Make no mistake - he's inherently  cruel, morally vacant and capable of the most vile acts, up to and including rape, torture and murder. 

When Trump caused people peacefully sitting in front of a chapel protesting to be injured as he marched down with armed guards to get his photo op of him in front of the chapel holding an upside down Bible, I knew without a doubt that he truly did not care about the lives of others.  I had always believed Ivana Trump's original account of rape that was detailed in the divorce proceedings and it is noteworthy that she only withdrew the account in exchange for significant financial consideration.  I absolutely believe the account of the woman, now adult, who said Trump raped her when she was 13 and I believe the women who have come forward with accounts of sexual abuse and rape at his hands. The man is amoral.  I had hoped his ardent supporters would have figured out long before the committee hearings that Trump wanted Mike Pence dead.  I will make my belief clear- I believe there was a specific plot in place.  I am not usually a conspiracy theorist but I feel there is enough evidence to support it.  Perhaps- just perhaps- Trump didn't know about it but I really think the plan was to at least kidnap him and force him to refuse to certify the election, thus holding the country in limbo and making the argument that Trump would remain POTUS (which would trigger a SCOTUS case and at that point, having packed the court and having Ginni Thomas' husband there and knowing what we know now about this SCOTUS being willing to go rogue who in the hell knows what would've happened) and if Pence wouldn't cooperate, he would be hung on those gallows.  I even go so far in my belief that, had the coup succeeded, with Congress in chaos there might not have even been a SCOTUS situation because the coup would have effectively put Trump in a dictator position.  I have no doubt, though, that unless Pence "played ball" Trump would have been absolutely giddy if he was murdered.  The man is a sick sociopath.  Now that he's badmouthing Pence, who on paper has all the correct boxes checked for the Rs (evangelical, holds the acceptable viewpoints, white, male) perhaps at least some of his base will turn away.  I realize Trump will always have some hardcore supporters no matter what he does but anytime some of his base falls off, it's progress. 

[Alisamer]

I have no doubt that Trump wanted Pence harmed as an example, if he refused to overturn the election results. I think they were more likely aiming at a hostage situation, though, if they'd thought things through at all. 

Wouldn't Nancy Pelosi have stepped up, if Pence had been killed? She'd have gone 25th amendment on Trump's ass faster than he could eat a hamberder. So while I think the rabble outside the capitol likely would have happily hanged Pence, I think that if they'd caught Pence the leaders of the coup might possibly have had enough sense not to execute him immediately. Hold him hostage, try to force him to do Trump's bidding, get Nancy Pelosi out of the way, and THEN have a show trial if Pence didn't play their game. 

[GreyhoundFan]

8 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I have no doubt that Trump wanted Pence harmed as an example, if he refused to overturn the election results. I think they were more likely aiming at a hostage situation, though, if they'd thought things through at all. 

Wouldn't Nancy Pelosi have stepped up, if Pence had been killed? She'd have gone 25th amendment on Trump's ass faster than he could eat a hamberder. So while I think the rabble outside the capitol likely would have happily hanged Pence, I think that if they'd caught Pence the leaders of the coup might possibly have had enough sense not to execute him immediately. Hold him hostage, try to force him to do Trump's bidding, get Nancy Pelosi out of the way, and THEN have a show trial if Pence didn't play their game. 

TFG is such a small and childish person that he loves a show of power that makes him feel strong. The idea that people would injure and kill in his name had to give her the biggest hard on ever. I can't imagine the idea that Nancy would have immediately pushed the 25th amendment would have occurred to him. And if it did, he'd push to have a mob go after her as well.

[Alisamer]

1 minute ago, GreyhoundFan said:

TFG is such a small and childish person that he loves a show of power that makes him feel strong. The idea that people would injure and kill in his name had to give her the biggest hard on ever. I can't imagine the idea that Nancy would have immediately pushed the 25th amendment would have occurred to him. And if it did, he'd push to have a mob go after her as well.

Oh yeah I don't think Dumpy had any thoughts about that. I don't think he thinks about much other than money and food and his own ego, TBH. But he had people around him who would have realized the possibility. TFG is dangerous, but I think the people with actual functioning brains who hover around him like flies around garbage are the ones keeping him dangerous and actually benefitting. He seems easily steered, if you know how to work his ego. 

[Shrubbery]

I have no doubt that Pelosi was targeted too.

The „incidental Putschists,“ who had been spurred on by Fuckface Von Clownstick‘s speech and fancied a bit of spontaneous sedition afterwards, focused on Pence and set out to get him because that was what Fuckface had been concentrating on (him tending to be a bit monomaniacal in his obsessions). But I‘m sure the „planned putschists,“ who came to Washington with their goals already fully formed, had Pelosi very high on their target list, and they wouldn’t have bothered with a hostage situation.

And if they’d got to her, and Pence, and the Orange One had remained incommunicado at best and instigating more at worse, chaos would’ve been supreme. Who’d have been able to tell if a message sent out by Pence was sent under duress? Would the next in the line of presidential succession have realised soon enough what was going on, and had the guts and the brains to act quickly and try to call rest of the cabinet and invoke the 25th? Some type of military unit would have been called in or decided to come in,  and nobody would have known who to take orders from - the actual, still sitting, President, who might have reappeared from his hidey-hole by then - or an acting President, who probably wouldn’t have been recognised (yet) by all cabinet members and wouldn’t have access to regular communication channels with the military - or some commander on the ground - by the time some sort of order had been restored and it was clear who was where and doing what, it might have been too late to prevent some serious harm to the whole democracy.

[Dandruff]

56 minutes ago, AlmostSavedAtTacoBell said:

Now that he's badmouthing Pence, who on paper has all the correct boxes checked for the Rs (evangelical, holds the acceptable viewpoints, white, male) perhaps at least some of his base will turn away.  I realize Trump will always have some hardcore supporters no matter what he does but anytime some of his base falls off, it's progress.

I'm hoping that with enough anti-Trump talk going on behind the scenes by some Rs that they'll promote a candidate (or candidates) for 2024 who is more palatable.  Devoted Trump followers will want Trump but the Rs as a whole want Rs.  Unless Trump can prevent all other potential R candidates from pursuing a primary run along with the corresponding debates, there will need to be a primary for the Rs.

I know that I'd be willing to vote for an R during a primary in the hopes of keeping Trump off the ballot and I believe a lot of other people would also.  I believe this situation could turn the R mainstream into an opposing force to Trump, if they decide he couldn't - or shouldn't - win the R nomination or presidency.

[Xan]

I think the questions about faith were by design.  They were trying to point out how Christian Pence and his staff were in hopes of peeling away some of that fundamentalist base.  I'm not sure whether it will work or not.  They also want to paint Pence as a hero so the hearings won't seem so partisan.  I'll give them that one.

As to Trump's intentions -- I still think he wanted a reason to declare martial law.  He certainly mentioned it enough times and said at one point that it was a special presidential power.  He wanted to declare martial law during the George Floyd marches.  If they'd killed Pence, he would've declared martial law in a skinny minute.  Any blowback from his staff and he'd have fired the entire lot.  Trump wants to be a dictator.  Some other article I read this morning said that they thought Trump hoped Pence would back him up and the left would riot so that he could declare martial law then.  Any way you look at it, Trump wins.

I think this country was in a lot more danger than we realized.  Trump simply wasn't going to leave office.  

21 minutes ago, Shrubbery said:

Would the next in the line of presidential succession have realised soon enough what was going on, and had the guts and the brains to act quickly and try to call rest of the cabinet and invoke the 25th?

I read another article that pointed out this wouldn't have worked.  Trump was still president and would have fired the staff if they tried to invoke the 25th.  We'd be back in chaos and possible martial law territory.

As to Pence not getting in the car -- I think he realized that a lot of the Secret Service guys were Trumpies.  He figured that they'd either drive him far away so the vote couldn't be certified or they'd dump him out for the crowd to string up.  He knows what Trump is.  He's a political creature so he'll never admit it openly.  He certainly acted like Trump's lap dog for 4 years but, ultimately, he knew that Trump has no loyalties.  

[Becky]

Didn't know where to put this - - this madness.  It was posted on Facebook.  It is mind-boggling that any American thinks Jan. 6 has no bearing!  We nearly lost our republic!      

I sympathize with people having trouble making ends meet due to the price of fuel, but this is pure stupidity, and it is the kind of thinking the committee is up against.  

 

[Shrubbery]

Going further down speculation lane, the next two in the presidential line of succession on 6th Jan 2021 were then-President pro tempore Chuck Grassley (who presumably would have been somewhere in the mayhem too, as a member of the senate? And thus possibly not easily reachable) and then the then-secretary of state Mike Pompeo, who apparently once criticised fuckface‘s authoritarianism (which I didn’t know, or had forgotten) but then in the cabinet was a staunch Orange loyalist (which I did remember about him). So how either of those might have reacted to a situation where they might feel they could - or had to - assume presidential power is anybody‘s guess.

[AlmostSavedAtTacoBell]

Nancy Pelosi was targeted.  They ran through the halls calling her name.  There is zero chance the planners would have done something with Pence and left her in place.  I actually think she was a higher target than Pence.  She is hated by the Trumpers.  There are so many ways things could have ended differently 1/6.  

Yeah, gas prices are high.  Food prices are high.  Housing costs are high.  But if things hadn't been stopped on 1/6, things would be very different right now and I really don't think it would be for the better.  Not even for the Trumpers.  They may have a utopian belief that if things had gone their way 1/6 it would be rainbows and unicorns for them but they don't realize that not only would this country have majorly imploded, it would have worldwide ramifications.  I admit I don't feel I am educated enough on world politics to predict what the reaction of our allies would be but I think we can all safely guess that our enemies would have taken full advantage of the situation.  Our allies would be completely justified in taking the "not my circus, not my monkeys" approach especially after the way Trump had acted on the international stage during his time in office.  Maybe other countries would try to intervene and mediate; maybe other counties would try to restore our democracy in order to keep a level of stability for their own countries' sakes.  But the Trumpers are damn fools if they believe that had 1/6 succeeded they would be living it up and hobnobbing with the bigwigs.  The infuriating part is that they are too stupid to realize it and keep supporting that asshat. 

[Ozlsn]

6 hours ago, fraurosena said:

All politics aside, Mike Pence was a hero in January 2021.

I can't abide his religious fervor, I can't stand his political views, and I condemn his sycophancy of Trump during his tenure, but I don't think we can deny that Pence, almost singlehandedly, saved the US from falling into a Trump dictatorship. And for that, he deserves recognition and credit.

How much of that was a recognition that if it all went to hell he'd be left holding the can though I wonder? He certainly had the option comprehensively examined, and if there was the slightest chance that it could have been ruled legal I think he would have done it. But being told that it was illegal, plus the fear of being the fall guy? Gave him some strength. Don't get me wrong, I am impressed he stood up to the pressure, not least because it could very well have gone even worse for him if the mob had found him (40 feet, ouch). It must have been a terrifying experience and he got up after and certified, and that took a lot of strength. But if there had been the slightest bit of legal wiggle room I don't think he would have certified.

[Ozlsn]

41 minutes ago, AlmostSavedAtTacoBell said:

They may have a utopian belief that if things had gone their way 1/6 it would be rainbows and unicorns for them but they don't realize that not only would this country have majorly imploded, it would have worldwide ramifications. 

Given that the high fuel prices are partly caused by the war in Ukraine... yeah I'm sure America turning into a dictatorship (best case) or engaged in civil war (worst) would have had a major impact on supply chains at least. Dictatorship I can see Europe and other western nations imposing sanctions at the very least; war is inherently destructive and even the parts of the country not in active fighting would have been affected as fuel supplies were disrupted, food, medicines and groceries became harder to get, internally displaced people poured in.

China would use the opportunity to engage politically with South/Central/North America and put more pressure on in places where it is already doing so (South China Sea anyone?) Russia.. well Putin might ally with Trump as dictator, or take the opportunity to reclaim Alaska - whatever suited his domestic needs better.

[Howl]

1 hour ago, Shrubbery said:

Going further down speculation lane, the next two in the presidential line of succession on 6th Jan 2021 were then-President pro tempore Chuck Grassley (who presumably would have been somewhere in the mayhem too, as a member of the senate? And thus possibly not easily reachable) and then the then-secretary of state Mike Pompeo, who apparently once criticised fuckface‘s authoritarianism (which I didn’t know, or had forgotten) but then in the cabinet was a staunch Orange loyalist (which I did remember about him). So how either of those might have reacted to a situation where they might feel they could - or had to - assume presidential power is anybody‘s guess.

Don't forget Grassley's January 5th epic faux pas:  Grassley suggests he may preside over Senate debate on Electoral College votes

Snip: Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, said he would preside over the U.S. Senate debate surrounding disputes of the 2020 election results if Vice President Mike Pence does not show up...He suggested Pence was not expected to attend but Grassley’s staff later said that was a “misinterpretation” and that Pence was expected to be there.

Transcript of what Grassley actually said: “Well, first of all, I will be — if the Vice President isn’t there and we don’t expect him to be there, I will be presiding over the Senate,” according to a transcript of his remarks sent by a spokesperson.

and then the then-secretary of state Mike Pompeo:  Pompeo was described by one person as "a heat-seeking missile for Trump's ass" meaning Pompeo was fanatically devoted to Trump.  Don't forget that Pompeo is a fanatical Evangelical, some flavor of Dominionist. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Howl

[fraurosena]

7 hours ago, Howl said:

Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, said he would preside over the U.S. Senate debate surrounding disputes of the 2020 election results if Vice President Mike Pence does not show up

There is no doubt in my mind that the coup was carefully planned, down to the minutiae. If he hasn’t already, Grassley should appear before the Committee and answer questions about the above statement.

What did Grassley know, and when did he know it? Was Chuck a willing co-conspiritor? Was the plan not only to get rid of an unwilling Pence, but to put a more willing Grassley in his place? We can’t know for sure, but it bears looking into.

[Howl]

10 hours ago, fraurosena said:

There is no doubt in my mind that the coup was carefully planned, down to the minutiae.

Yes, this is becoming more and more apparent.  

[Ozlsn]

Proud Boys acted as Trump's paramilitary, using crowd as cover.

Interesting view from NYT, particularly:

After months of studying video footage of the attack and poring over internal communications by the Proud Boys, The Times has determined that members of the group maneuvered in a coordinated fashion that day in a way that was not previously known and in a manner that was unlike that of the hundreds of other rioters who stormed the building.

The analysis by The Times found a pattern in how the Proud Boys moved on the ground. Over and over, at key moments when the Capitol was breached, the group used the same set of tactics: identifying access points to the building, riling up other protesters and sometimes directly joining in the violence. When met with resistance, leaders of the group reassessed, and teams of Proud Boys targeted new entry points to the Capitol.

Moreover, members of the Proud Boys, following the orders of their leaders, did not wear their typical black-and-yellow uniforms that day. Instead, they intentionally dressed to blend into the crowd and look like other protesters in a way that disguised their actions and — until now — played down their importance in moving the action forward.

Lawyers for the Proud Boys have firmly denied that the group had any prearranged plan to storm the Capitol — let alone to seditiously overthrow the government — and, for the moment, the case of the organization’s former leader, Enrique Tarrio, and four of his subordinates is set to go on trial in Washington in August. As that prosecution moves forward and as other members of the Proud Boys are arrested, more details will surface about the central role the group played on Jan. 6.

[Howl]

I saw a twitter thread that carefully diagrammed the movements of the Proud Boys, along with a timeline and video to support the analysis.  The Proud Boys used yellow "Don't Tread On Me" flags on tall white poles to telegraph pre-arranged signals that directed movement. 

[Ozlsn]

It's interesting watching the NYT's video too- they didn't mention the flag-waving (which I think I saw in the thread @Howl mentioned) but they highlighted the groups in the crowd and the reactions to a very small number of agitators. My favourite(?) bit was one of the leader's cell phone conversations inadvertently captured on video as the mob broke in on one side - it's very much a "OK, we'll come and join you there" conversation, but "there" was where they hadn't yet broken through. The groups holding on to each other to stay together in the crowd was also quite interesting - difficult to argue you're not together when you're forming human chains.

[Cartmann99]

 

[Dandruff]

40 minutes ago, Cartmann99 said:

 

I'm very much looking forward to what Brad has to say.

I imagine that severe pre-tantrum activities are going on at Mar-a-Lago.

[47of74]

On 6/18/2022 at 1:01 AM, fraurosena said:

There is no doubt in my mind that the coup was carefully planned, down to the minutiae. If he hasn’t already, Grassley should appear before the Committee and answer questions about the above statement.

What did Grassley know, and when did he know it? Was Chuck a willing co-conspiritor? Was the plan not only to get rid of an unwilling Pence, but to put a more willing Grassley in his place? We can’t know for sure, but it bears looking into.

I hope Admiral Franken goes after Grassley hard in the election and no matter how much the fornicate stick Republicans whine bring it up all the time how Grassley has no loyalty to the Constitution.

Meanwhile, an Oaf Keeper is whining about the treatment he got in the can.

Quote

In an Indiana jail, Iced Earth guitarist Jon Schaffer, who pled guilty to crimes relating to the Capitol incident, had feces and urine thrown at him and received death threats, according to his lawyer.

Schaffer was transferred to a Washington, D.C., jail before being released on bail in April after the statements made during a March court hearing were published on Thursday. 

Schaffer, a self-described founding member of the Oath Keepers, was the first insurgent to plead guilty and cooperate with federal authorities. He faces a sentence of 3.5-4.5 years in prison. 

After Schaffer’s arrest, it was announced that Iced Earth was breaking up. 

Fornicate him. 

[AlmostSavedAtTacoBell]

4 hours ago, 47of74 said:

I hope Admiral Franken goes after Grassley hard in the election and no matter how much the fornicate stick Republicans whine bring it up all the time how Grassley has no loyalty to the Constitution.

Meanwhile, an Oaf Keeper is whining about the treatment he got in the can.

Fornicate him. 

I don’t believe any of his claims. Without actual proof, I think it’s “fake news” and “alternative facts”.  Even if he brings photos and videos, I will just assume they are DeepFakes and don’t prove anything. If a pizza place without a basement can be running a child sex trafficking ring directly tied to Hillary Rodman Clinton in said non-existent basement, then no matter how much footage is release I will believe Kellyanne Conroy’s family, including her brother, are absolutely safe because we have American heroes protecting them.  Seriously, what a group of morons. 

[fraurosena]

It's appalling how anyone could think that threatening the life of a baby (who's pro-life again?) is an appropriate way to change a father's political choices.