(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 39: It's Never Leg Humping to Support Victims - Applaud Strength

[JermajestyDuggar]

I kind of doubt JB and Michelle went to TN with Jer. I bet Jer took his girlfriend and a few other young Duggars. I bet JB and Michelle want to stay home during the trial. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Rufus bless. Is there also a program called Beansie?

Not on any of my devices!

[gustava]

25 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

The Above Rubies lady Nancy Campbell was there too. The whole underbelly of fundiedom is entangled. 

These women are in the courtroom?  Or did I miss something??

[Petronella]

45 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

It was probably either Bobbye or her husband who wrote the letter, since they seem to have been the best informed.  However, what is equally interesting is who read the letter (left inside a book) and disseminated the information among others. (And I have to wonder if the letter was left in the book intentionally.)

Apologies for asking something others already know. What letter?

[Antipatriarch]

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I kind of wish they would keep going today. Only because the longer the trial goes, the longer he gets to be free. After reading all this, it just makes me want him to be locked up this minute. He’s had so much freedom to harm people over the years. I hate it.

I hear ya! I wish he'd been in custody pretrial. It's a shame the weekend gives him two extra days outside.

But I had one encouraging thought today, for those of us who want this utter piece of garbage to be convicted. Attorneys look carefully at the trial calendar. Having a weekend in the middle of presenting your case is not something they'd waste. I'm certain the prosecution team said, "What do we want the jurors thinking about all weekend?" Lots of disgusting stuff yesterday and especially today, and that's no accident. You want the day the "mood in the room shifted to anger" etc. to be Friday.

So here's to the hope that today puts the last nails in the coffin of his defense case, and that these are his last days of freedom for a long time to come!

[formergothardite]

7 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I am confused.  Neither the Sun nor the Reddit site seem to say anything about Bobbye Holt testifying today so far.  It’s all about the computer experts and the timeline, etc.

I can’t seem to get in to the Facebook Fundie Wonderland.  If any members want to invite me, please PM me for my facebook name. 

That is what is so confusing. FW dropped some really in bombshells about the Holt testimony, yet it is not found anywhere else. So where did they get this info? I’m going to take it with a massive grain of salt until it is confirmed somewhere else. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, gustava said:

These women are in the courtroom?  Or did I miss something??

No, they're referring to an old video praising Michelle a few pages back.

[3KidsAndStopped]

I think that the defence are drawing this out, possibly to ensure that they have the weekend to consider options with Josh? 2 hours seems an awful long time for what is being reported.

Other lines of questioning were the use of command codes and whether you can forensically determine how a torrent is installed. Also asking about Remmina and whether a router would be useful for remote access.

 

ETA:That is it. Back in session.

Curious how long this took.

Edited December 3, 2021 by 3KidsAndStopped

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

I hear ya! I wish he'd been in custody pretrial. It's a shame the weekend gives him two extra days outside.

But I had one encouraging thought today, for those of us who want this utter piece of garbage to be convicted. Attorneys look carefully at the trial calendar. Having a weekend in the middle of presenting your case is not something they'd waste. I'm certain the prosecution team said, "What do we want the jurors thinking about all weekend?" Lots of disgusting stuff yesterday and especially today, and that's no accident. You want the day the "mood in the room shifted to anger" etc. to be Friday.

So here's to the hope that today puts the last nails in the coffin of his defense case, and that these are his last days of freedom for a long time to come!

I hope Anna has many questions for him over the weekend too. I bet he will try to lie again. 

[Mama Mia]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

That is what is so confusing. FW dropped some really in bombshells about the Holt testimony, yet it is not found anywhere else. So where did they get this info? I’m going to take it with a massive grain of salt until it is confirmed somewhere else. 

Exactly. And then seemed to try to backtrack  by stating it was a recording by Bobye Holt that was played. But that doesn’t seem to be what anyone else has reported, or what the topics today have been about. And those are huge bombshells. I can’t see all of the many reporters just skipping over something so big.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, Petronella said:

Apologies for asking something others already know. What letter?

Someone named "Alice" left a letter about the SA by Josh in a book at the Duggar's house.  This person also notified Oprah of Josh's abuse when the family was scheduled to be on the show.  I'm heading home now, but if no one else sends links to that rabbit hole in the meantime I'll do it when I get home.

 

[theotherelise]

6 minutes ago, Petronella said:

Apologies for asking something others already know. What letter?

From an article from a few years ago:
 

Quote

 

The Duggars told police that at the time Josh was accused of, and admitting to, these sexual acts, “a family friend aware of what had happened had written down in a letter what he knew of [redacted, Josh’s] actions…That letter had been placed in a book and had subsequently been forgotten about. Just recently [in 2006] the book had been loaned to someone else with the letter in it and another person discovered the letter.

The Duggars refused to tell police who wrote the letter and who found it.

When the family was scheduled to appear on Oprah Winfrey’s talk show in 2006, an email was sent to the show warning them about the alleged molestation. The email was written by a 61-year-old female who is not identified.

Harpo Studios faxed the letter to the Department of Human Services hotline. The report was then opened for investigation, leading to the investigation by Springdale police.

 

There was also a poster on old forums that went by Alice and made these claims and I believe even said that's why the Oprah appearance didn't happen. Since the InTouch revelation of the police report, it seems like most think the 61 year old female was Alice. I was speculating earlier that maybe Bobye was the original letter writer.

[neuroticcat]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm not arguing about the children, I believe it's an inherently abusive system to those it was forced upon.  But to apply the word abuse to a woman to chose this with zero evidence is a slap in the face to actual victims.  

I disagree. I think there is a spectrum of abuse - and the egregiousness of one kind doesn’t negate the awfulness of another. I think all the followers in ATI are victims of some form of abuse to varying degrees. Many, especially those who have power, are also abusers. I mean no disrespect to any survivors of abuse.

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by neuroticcat

[nokidsmom]

25 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

The Bates teach/imbibed all the same garbage. They present as more likable but that is it. Many of the older kids seem to have distanced from Gothard and fundamentalism, but it really reveals nothing about actual beliefs.

I think the older kids remember life back before Gil decided to quit his (seeming) decent job and grift his way through life, putting his ever growing family at considerable financial /material hardship.   They might harbor some (or all) of the same beliefs but clearly they are not going to endure what they did growing up as adults.  

25 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Wut. He has cameras in their bedrooms? That screams either completely inappropriate father or father fearful of this kind of abuse. Either way it is disturbing and, for the older kids, weird invasion of privacy.

Yeah, in spite of the Bateseseseseses trying to appear more "mainstream" they are into lot of the same crazy / weird / inappropriate stuff as the Duggars and have run with them in the same fundie circles.   That's not to say they have a Josh in their midst and certainly hope not but if I were them I would be watching their "friends'" current situation very closely because of the association.

 

[Antipatriarch]

[deleted on reflection; thanks @Giraffe]

Edited December 3, 2021 by Antipatriarch
I don't want to be victim blaming

[Giraffe]

Having a weekend break from the trial also gives Anna time to process what she's heard over the last few days, too. I'm not holding my breath that any of it will cause her to make any life changing decisions over it but I'm glad she has Derick supporting her. 

[neuroticcat]

43 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The Bateses are posting happy pretty wedding themed photos as this trial reveals some of the most heinous info. It just really bothers me. They can become famous thanks to the Duggars and make lots of money due to the fame they first found on the Duggars’ show. And now Kelly and Gil can just pretend like their families weren’t best friends? Are they going to pretend like they aren’t in the same fucking cult? They will never publicly denounce Josh’s behavior? I’m sure the Bateses know all about Josh’s behavior. And probably have for many years. And that’s probably why Zach was friends with JD and not Josh even though he’s closer in age to Josh than JD. Katie’s big fancy wedding would look more like a cheap parking lot wedding with a used wedding dress and home perms if they had never gotten their first fame from the Duggars. 

Joy and Carlin still post regularly about being best friends, so perhaps she knows or always has known?

Edited December 3, 2021 by neuroticcat

[Chickenbutt]

About a recording.....I can't imagine that a recording would be played in court as evidence without a long drawn out authentication process. Unless the defense stipulated that the speaker was indeed Bobye Holt. But why would they do that. Anyone smarter than me care to chime in?

[neuroticcat]

39 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

The defense continued their cross examination of Fottrell. They are referring to Caleb Williams, they seem to be really sticking to this line. Something to do with ebay shipping labels.

Can someone like Caleb sue for defamation?

[formergothardite]

9 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Exactly. And then seemed to try to backtrack  by stating it was a recording by Bobye Holt that was played. But that doesn’t seem to be what anyone else has reported, or what the topics today have been about. And those are huge bombshells. I can’t see all of the many reporters just skipping over something so big.

There is no way the Sun would have not mentioned it. I feel like we should be very cautious taking that information as being real when no one else is saying it took place. The Sun has been fairly accurate in their reporting and it doesn’t make sense that this wouldn’t have been mentioned. 

[Idlewild]

If Laura is pushing back against Amy, can we assume Jana is still Team Josh/JB/Michelle?

[imokit]

I don't believe for a second that a recording of Bobye's testimony was used.

She testified in an evidentary hearing, not before a jury.

If she is used in the trial, it will be live testimony where she can be cross examined.

It will also be at the motive part of the trial.  They're still doing technical bits and who did what and how.

[AprilQuilt]

I've just watched back Jill and Jessa's Megyn Kelly interview and it's clear from what they say that the abuse happened regularly and not just once. It also didn't only happen when they were sleeping. Direct quote from Jessa:

"he was very sly, like, the girls didn't catch on. You know. It was like, OK, if he catches a girl sleeping you know like, a quick feel or whatever, or like you know if you're just not really aware, you know, in the situations it happened where the girls were awake, they weren't aware it was happening. It was very subtle."

- this is her way of minimising it, the very fine line between not knowing it happened and not knowing what was happening. ie the girls did not understand what Josh was doing and therefore it didn't bother them and they were spared real trauma. I assume this 'not really aware' scenario is times during play where innocent physical contact is expected between children, and might also speak to the scenario of Josh getting a 5yo child on his lap to read a Bible story. But what it also conveys is that it was a total waste of breath for Jim Bob and Michelle to urge the children to speak up if anyone 'touched them inappropriately' because they did not know what inappropriate touching was. Nobody educated them on that.

And if they felt uncomfortable with what Josh was doing but couldn't identify why, they had already been trained to internalise that and look for the guilt in themselves rather than in him - that if they felt badly towards him that was a failure on their own part. To have fought back against him would have been defiance, and taken a lot of strength. I think perhaps a lot of the burden of their trauma has been in not being able to control their feelings towards Josh, that they were told to minimise what he had done but in their hearts could not help feeling violated and upset.

It speaks volumes that Jill has already got a book about bodies and consent for her children. They will not lack the vocabulary or the boundaries like she did.

Edited December 3, 2021 by AprilQuilt
just clarifying my terms

[neuroticcat]

42 minutes ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

JB is a sack of shit, who thinks he's *the* shit - I truly don't think he has any empathy for anyone. He found a lifestyle that allows him, the nerdy goody-two-shoes Xtian that married the hot cheerleader, to be the alpha male he was destined to be. Michelle was a teenager in love with her new bf and with her new religion. She made him her standard, probably doesn't think she's been spiritually or emotionally or sexually taken advantage of, and convinced herself (with his support of course) that this is her calling in life.

But I think of how happy they must have been as young parents with "just" 4-5 kids. When any of the Duggars post childhood pics on instagram, I think of how has toddlers J*sh and JD and Jana must've played together, and how four-year-old J*sh might've doted on baby-Jessa the same way that Spurge and Henry do on Ivy and Fern; I can't imagine what it must be like for Jill and Jessa to have those childhood memories and also the memories of being taken advantage of and assaulted by the same brother. I think of how rose-colored the glasses must be for these young fundie parents at their first-born golden-boy, and imagine Michelle obsessing over tiny-J*sh like Erin Paine does with Carson; Michelle is probably desperate to still think of her boy that way even after allllll the times he's thrown his mistakes in her face. It all went so, so wrong. 

 The way they wrote about early family life sounds bad. Not much money, Jim Bob working and gone all the time. Michelle entertaining five kids five and under in the bedroom all day because their living room was the car lot office. Even without all the ATI stuff, poverty sucks. I’m sure there are happy memories too, but I think there was nothing instagramworthy about early Duggar family life.

Edited December 3, 2021 by neuroticcat
Typos!!!

[Queen Of Hearts]

16 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Exactly. And then seemed to try to backtrack  by stating it was a recording by Bobye Holt that was played. But that doesn’t seem to be what anyone else has reported, or what the topics today have been about. And those are huge bombshells. I can’t see all of the many reporters just skipping over something so big.

Also, no one else is reporting about Anna crying.  That is the kind of thing the Sun usually lives for.  They did report about Joy hugging Anna so they are definitely watching her.