(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 39: It's Never Leg Humping to Support Victims - Applaud Strength

[gustava]

4 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Have also wondered but I have no sympathy for Headship Reber. He completely deserves whatever anxiety, stress, and negative consequences come from his choice to house Josh. I do feel sorry for the rest of the family who probably had little or no say.

Pa Reber has worked with criminals.  Wonder whether he has Josh on his knees praying or berating him like a sarge!?!?!?!

[Bluebirdbluebell]

4 hours ago, Giraffe said:

Gothard was forced to resign due to sexual abuse. Duggars have spent years decades covering up & perpetrating heinous abuse. At what point will IBLP & fundamentalists wake up and accept abuse is a feature, not a bug? 

 

I know, I know, it won't happen for most of them but damn I really hope this causes a lot of people who've long supported all of it to see the evil for what it is and stop with their asinine excuses. 

Yes to this. The Bates aren't much better than the Duggars. They may just be lucky Josh isn't their son. I think Gil Bates knew Gothard was perv for a long time before he and the rest of the board forced Gothard to resign. If I remember correctly, Gothard resigned because they were being sued by some of the victims. I would bet the farm on there are still more victims of Gothard who were never able to speak out.

Anyway the Board doesn't seem to have formally renounced any of Gothard's teachings. AFAIK, it's still Bill Gothard's IBLP without Bill Gothard. They still sell his books and spead his teachings.

I worry as a former Catholic that same things are true about Catholicism. I would like to believe the Catholic Church is changing, but they haven't changed enough yet.

[Galbin]

2 hours ago, lizzybee said:

Just in my feelings today over all the years I wasted following these people like they were some kind of gold standard. Defended them with everything I had. Meanwhile all this horror lurked behind the curtain. I genuinely lost myself for a long time trying to be part of this evil world. When Taylor Swift re-released Red it was the first time for me because I wouldn't let myself listen to it when it came out the first time and that's just the tip of the iceberg of what I took from myself. What a joke. Meanwhile, Josh was over here allowing himself to do THIS. Fuck them all. Fuck the patriarchy indeed. 

Yep. I discovered the Duggars when I was extremely ill and in horrific pain. Their show helped me feel that there was a future ahead of me and that God would get me through. They also made me look forward to having a family of my own.

Now I am just so appalled to think of what was really going on in that family. 

[SassyPants]

12 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

She's responsible for 7 children, all of whom seem to be similar ages to children in the CSAM. She doesn't have to stay. 

In our world, which is the real world, she has choices. In the world known to Anna and in which she resides, she has no choice. Someone needs to help Anna transition to and start to live successfully in our world. 

[ElizaB]

5 hours ago, Iburneddinner said:

Anna's parents probably weren't given the whole truth back when the Duggars came around.....but they know now. Or at least they should make the effort to learn what a monster they married their daughter off to. There is absolutely no excuse for them not to help her now. If they don't help her or worse encourage her to stand by her husband, then they are almost the monsters that JB and Meech are. The M's are not going to be safe from the Duggar toxicity until they are away completely.  JB should not be around Anna or the kids anymore.

I don't think Anna is going to have to worry about really seeing him for another 40 years. 

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, Galbin said:

Yep. I discovered the Duggars when I was extremely ill and in horrific pain. Their show helped me feel that there was a future ahead of me and that God would get me through. They also made me look forward to having a family of my own.

Now I am just so appalled to think of what was really going on in that family. 

I first heard of the Duggars when our family was struggling with an out of control teen who is 1 year older than Josh. I remember thinking, maybe their way is better. Boy, had I only known what they were dealing with at that time. Fast forward 16 years and my daughter is an educated, working professional, married with a small child of her own, and a stellar human being. And the Duggars are still trying to fake it.

[SimplyMe]

38 minutes ago, imokit said:

I suspect:

He is going back to the Reber's for the weekend.  Anna is going back to her children to take them to visit poor persecuted Daddy.

Can you imagine being the Rebers?  I couldn’t imagine before and now…. Like holy hell, I would vomit when the Pest walked through my door.  There’s not enough money in this world that would make me agree to house him.  🤮

[HoneyBunny]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I bet they were shitting their pants when Josh and Anna moved to DC. 

Did you ever have a moment or a memory that was so fleeting and you didn’t understand why it impacted you like it did?  That’s the only way I can explain what happened to me during that “taking the FRC” job episode. At one point, Michelle had a look on her face that I’ll never forget seeing:  pure fear. It made no sense to me then. I understand it was hard to say goodbye to her oldest, but this was way more than that. It was as if she knew that this simple act was going to tumble the whole house of cards. 

[Mama Mia]

15 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

In a previous comment you said no one is forcing her. I think JB is forcing her. I think he is very much a tit for tat control freak. I provide you X and in exchange you will do Y. Right now, she is stuck. She has kids that need food, and a roof over their head. Currently, she can not independently supply those things. It will take time.

There are lots and lots and lots of poor women with kids with little education. Millions and millions of families are poor. Assuming she has no income, or assets, or any help at all, she’d STILL be eligible to receive $1,900 a month in Advance Child Tax Credit (making this an ideal time to leave), $1,500 a month in SNAP (food stamps) and additional food for herself and the youngest kids through WIC. That’s not counting any mainstream supports she might be eligible for like TANF or Low Income Housing.   If she chose to stay in the area and couldn’t wrangle one of the many, many rentals the Duggar’s own - the fair market rate  rent for a 3 bedroom in Springdale AR is $1,100 a month. A 2 bedroom is only $800. She would be fine. It would be tight, but they wouldn’t starve and the kids would have a roof over their head.

And the likelihood she would receive no support from her family, or several of the people who are Duggar /Duggar adjacent is slim to none. She might prefer Josh. She might prefer JB and Michelle and the in-laws hanging on tightest to Josh’s defense (although she doesn’t seem particularly close to any one of them) she might be afraid of change. BUT she absolutely, 100%, could survive with her kids without JB’s help. 

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, Mama Mia said:

There are lots and lots and lots of poor women with kids with little education. Millions and millions of families are poor. Assuming she has no income, or assets, or any help at all, she’d STILL be eligible to receive $1,900 a month in Advance Child Tax Credit (making this an ideal time to leave), $1,500 a month in SNAP (food stamps) and additional food for herself and the youngest kids through WIC. That’s not counting any mainstream supports she might be eligible for like TANF or Low Income Housing.   If she chose to stay in the area and couldn’t wrangle one of the many, many rentals the Duggar’s own - the fair market rate  rent for a 3 bedroom in Springdale AR is $1,100 a month. A 2 bedroom is only $800. She would be fine. It would be tight, but they wouldn’t starve and the kids would have a roof over their head.

And the likelihood she would receive no support from her family, or several of the people who are Duggar /Duggar adjacent is slim to none. She might prefer Josh. She might prefer JB and Michelle and the in-laws hanging on tightest to Josh’s defense (although she doesn’t seem particularly close to any one of them) she might be afraid of change. BUT she absolutely, 100%, could survive with her kids without JB’s help. 

Again, for those in the back, it doesn’t matter if we know that, someone needs to convince Anna of that. THAT is the hurdle. Anna needs to accept, process and integrate the choices and move forward.

[FiveAcres]

A while ago I remember reading that Derrick was hoping to help the "underserved" with his law degree. At the time, I rolled my eyes and though "Yeah. Good "Christians" who are being forced to serve to provide services to people they don't approve of." But perhaps he had "women who are trapped in abusive cults" in mind. That would actually be pretty wonderful. 

[lizzybee]

21 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I first heard of the Duggars when our family was struggling with an out of control teen who is 1 year older than Josh. I remember thinking, maybe their way is better. Boy, had I only known what they were dealing with at that time. Fast forward 16 years and my daughter is an educated, working professional, married with a small child of her own, and a stellar human being. And the Duggars are still trying to fake it.

I'd just had a miscarriage and I was devastated. I wasn't thinking clearly obviously but I kept thinking God must really approve of their family to have 19 children, and he doesn't approve of mine because I lost my baby. And then I was hooked in, determined to please God like they obviously had. Also thinking their way must be better. Three subsequent years of infertility just saw me trying harder and harder to be like them...until I found out I had a thyroid disorder and had my children easily once it was treated. I've been trying to deconstruct with varying success since I was pregnant with my first. 

[The Mother Dust]

3 hours ago, xenobia said:

Laura DeMasie is over in cousin Amy's instagram comment section. Seems like she's still on team Duggar here. 

I am several pages behind, but I feel compelled to say, seeing Amy speaking out about this now, I kind of regret the "Famy" snark I indulged in some years ago.  Yes, it was annoying, but relatively harmless.  Of course, no one can see the future. But still.  Only speaking for myself...I'm sorry Amy.

[Cassia]

A heads up for everyone, if you're trying to avoid specific details, please be careful what you're reading and where. I was scrolling twitter and came across a headline with graphic content that was revealed in court today. Tread lightly - there was no warning, just bam, all of a sudden I was reading about it...

 

[Xan]

6 minutes ago, Cassia said:

A heads up for everyone, if you're trying to avoid specific details, please be careful what you're reading and where. I was scrolling twitter and came across a headline with graphic content that was revealed in court today. Tread lightly - there was no warning, just bam, all of a sudden I was reading about it...

 

Same.  This afternoon I was looking at my phone while in a car line for picking up a grandchild.  I thought I'd just look to see what mainstream news sites said about Josh and read a couple of lines that will haunt me for a long time.  This mess is the stuff of nightmares.

I think the Duggars, the Bates, and all the other fundie families we watch enable different types of abuse.  If you decide that the father is the be-all and end-all authority figure, you close off avenues for help.  Add in the strict control concerning being around non-believers and the homeschooling and you are just setting those kids up to be used.  There might be benevolent fundamentalist patriarchs out there but I think a lot has been swept under the carpets with these families.  If you opened closets, there are probably skeletons everywhere.  I doubt the only guilty parties are named Duggar or Willis.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Xan

[FrumperedCat]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Maybe Michelle can care for all 7 kids.

Pft, I doubt she's taken care single handedly of that many kids in that age range in years, maybe even a decade or so!

[onekidanddone]

Where are the prayers for the precious babies? If children were a gift from the Lord, what about the little ones in the images Josh (allegedly) downloaded ?

Michelle how can you live with yourself? Seriously I don’t think JB, Michelle or Josh have souls 

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

She did testify in pre-trial, could that have been what they were talking about?  They did get into the specifics of the meetings of when Josh confessed to her twice a few years apart and meetings with the Holts, Josh, and JB/Michelle as well as Josh and the Holts privately.

Biggest bombshell of that for me was that this had been going on since he was about 12-13 as when he confessed at 15 he said it had been going on for a few years.  Emily D Baker showed the legal docs from Pacer on her screen when she discussed it and the docs show Bobye's testimony.  

I am only on around page 12, but skimming through, the question doesn’t seem to have been resolved.  Here is my guess (correct me if I am wrong).

Bobye Holt and Jill were expected to testify today, but the trial has been slow because the defense is questioning a lot and because they added some breaks,  Reports in The Sun, various twitter accounts, the Arkansas journalists, etc. have focused on the detailed evidence of why it had to be Josh who did this.

The Fundie Wonderland people have been combining their coverage with reports/rehash of Bobye’s pretrail testimony and possibly adding things Bobbye has said to members of the group. (We know that at least on one occasion Bobye spoke up to that group to clarify she and her husband were never as derp into ATI and so forth as the Duggars and they were conservative Christian, not as extreme.

Right now, this is the best explanation I can think of.  But I don’t currently have access to FW.

ETA: I saw above the FW people said they played recordings of Mrs Holt, but I haven’t seen that mentioned anywhere.

Edited December 4, 2021 by EmCatlyn

[karenb4729]

I'm reading the updates from today and the defense is saying Josh shared that password with lots of people.  Whether he did or not, the bottom line is his phone was at the car lot when the porn was downloaded, he was texting Anna from that car lot before and after the downloads.  If I were a jury member I would hone in on those facts because unless he let everyone borrow his phone it provides a good timeline.  The nail in the coffin will be his previous "incidents" involving minor girls.  

[neuroticcat]

I agree, and while I don’t really expect the Bates’ to weigh in in this on a wedding weekend, I do think it’s pretty awful that as soon as the parents find a reason to begin walking back some of these beliefs (money, better lifestyle, fame, etc, or even implosion like with the Phillipses and Vision Forum,), that’s enough for them to begin leaving when for decades they have been leaders propagating this crap - mostly to vulnerable people. I mean, good for the adult kids if they are getting out however they can, but I wish somebodywould have enough support and the moral courage to post a public statement renouncing any of it. 
 

I feel like I remember Erin Bates saying they weren’t involved with ATI anymore. And obviously Jill has made some veiled statements. Has anyone else whose left fundiedom done something like this? But have any actual leaders who had power/influence in any of these movements and then left actually publicly owned any of it? Counting kidults, Josh Harris comes to mind, but even at that, he’s still grifting, only this time with deconstruction.

[SPHASH]

If Anna really did cry in court today then this picture didn't age well

 

[Dandruff]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Ben just posted an anti-LGBTQ+ video. The timing is insane in my opinion.

He's providing a distraction under the banner of (so-called) Christianity.  JB is running for office, which has provided distraction under a similar banner.  This is a stretch...but I'm wondering whether JB is hoping that if he loses the election it will satiate some of the public's anger toward him.

I expect that Josh will spend the weekend at the Rebers.  Can they possibly not be horrified?  I imagine them saying "Stay in there and don't come out until Monday". 

Hope Anna stays away from Josh and puts her phone on Do Not Disturb for awhile.

 

[seraaa]

3 hours ago, xenobia said:

Laura DeMasie is over in cousin Amy's instagram comment section. Seems like she's still on team Duggar here. 

I know some of them must think it, but I did not expect to see "how IBLP is harmful and destructive" plainly written out by someone so close to them? Cousin Amy's had it

[3KidsAndStopped]

Court is out for the day. It will resume Monday now.

Continued cross examination of Fottrell. Discussion around passwords which were used the same on the family social media accounts and the computer in question. Apparently.others knew the passwords.

Defense asks if Caleb Williams, Randall Barry or William Moze phones were checked.

Some.evidence apparently deleted. A certain amount of the downloads could be firmly traced to coming from the HP computer.

Prosecution clarifies whether the router is significant, and Fottrell says only if no devices and they just dont have any useful info. asked whether router info would alter his conclusion CSAM had been downloaded. Fottrell said No. so 2 hours this afternoon by defence smartly shut down.

[Dominionatrix]

On the topic of what has been said at FW, a few days ago People Magazine had a pretty detailed article about what Bobye Holt said in her pretrial testimony. It includes that Josh’s abuse of his sisters started when he was twelve until 2003 (when I believe he was 15), provides the added details about what he did to Joy, and mentions one sister hitting him. Those are all the big revelations, right? It sounds like perhaps in our game of telephone with FW has created some confusion (although I don’t know where the detail about Anna crying would be from).

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/?amp=true