Josh, Anna 24 Hmmm... Flight Risk? Does Anyone Know if there Are Any Pilots in the Family?

[onekidanddone]

Wonder if PP or ZZ will pontificate smugly on how perfect and Godly they are and how the Duggars are all reprobates 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, nst said:

well then the wheel will never stop turning

Exactly.  That's why cycles of abuse have been spinning since the beginning of time.  Some aspects of human nature really suck.

[sansan]

I don’t really give Josh any thought normally but today is a little different. First, and correct me if I’m wrong, several of his brothers and at least Jill and Derrick have done things to help other people. Many people will say what they do is for publicity, but nonetheless they have done things to help others. I really can’t remember Josh doing anything for anyone but himself, but I may be wrong. Secondly, I hope this doesn’t hose things up for Jana in her supposed relationship, that would really be sad for her and the other brothers that might be starting relationships. They all probably want to take him behind the greenhouse and kick his butt.

[browngrl]

28 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Until women in this cult get some recognition beyond being a “neck” and readily available vagina,

Perhaps it is just me, but in general,I have not had any recognition handed to me - I have always had to find a way to stand up for myself and insist that I have a seat at the table. Has this been easy or worked every time? No. But that is life.

Fundie women will NEVER get the recognition if they don't demand it. Why would the system change when it is working out for those in power? Answer: there will no change unless change is demanded. I am sympathetic to women in Anna's situation (provided they were not complicit) because any change is hard and this change might be very hard indeed.  However my sympathy grows thin for people who are shocked when they end up in another mess after making no changes from the last time. I hope Anna can find it in herself to build a better life for herself and her children but I suspect she will cling to the Duggars and stay within the fundie world as Kelly Bradrick or Katie Morton did. 

[Four is Enough]

12 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

 I don't think white collar criminals would necessarily trouble him much.  Medium or maximum would be more problematic of course, but I've heard that federal prisons are generally better/safer places than state prisons. 

Right now Josh Duggar is not in prison. He's in a detention center. However, he will probably be isolated for his protection. 

9 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

Other than that... A family member was locked up for almost a decade and I've piqued his brain endlessly about it. He says that the wife/elderly/child abusers are all constantly given a rough time and people will skip meals in order to avoid sitting at the same table as them, but that in his experience prison rape doesn't really exist; there are enough people willing to bone that it's not a thing.

There are plenty of white supremacy gangs for Josh to join, and so even in gen pop he's likely to have some level of protection. 

Unfortunately for me, I had a child in prison. I learned a great deal about segregation from his reports.

Child abusers seem to be looked down upon by nearly everyone else.. my child had me look up a new prisoner's crimes on judiciary case search. (What an eye opening experience, perusing THAT!) He'd ask what the list was and compare it to what the person had said, so they could decide if the person met the criteria to be in their group.

 

And the white supremacy groups? Again, unfortunately for me, my child belongs to one. That particular one would have no truck whatsoever with a child molester/porn user/etc.

2 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Also, totally stealing "Insurrectionpalooza." ?

That's totally the feeling I got, watching the insurrection. "We're going to go fuck up the Capitol, and then we're gonna party."

 

Oh, and the investigation? I believe the Feds are too stealthy to have Josh know that he was being investigated. And now that they have Josh, if JB is involved, I'm sure they'll dig a whole helluva lot deeper into JB not that Josh is safely behind bars.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Four is Enough

[Jewels64]

16 minutes ago, seraaa said:

Or she was naive and in denial enough to believe it was really all behind them and he was a reformed and honest character. But it's still her responsibility to protect her kids from the impact of this now.

I don't believe Anna is in love with Josh.  She looks the other way because she LOVES being a Duggar.  She loves the TV show and all that goes with that.  Her little fit about her kids not being shown on the show told me all I needed to know.  She loves the attention and being a Duggar.  Josh was her ticket in and now she deals with him to stay in the family. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, sansan said:

I don’t really give Josh any thought normally but today is a little different. First, and correct me if I’m wrong, several of his brothers and at least Jill and Derrick have done things to help other people. Many people will say what they do is for publicity, but nonetheless they have done things to help others. I really can’t remember Josh doing anything for anyone but himself, but I may be wrong. Secondly, I hope this doesn’t hose things up for Jana in her supposed relationship, that would really be sad for her and the other brothers that might be starting relationships. They all probably want to take him behind the greenhouse and kick his butt.

What have any of them done to help people?  Not being snarky, genuine question.

 

[Antimony]

7 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Then she is not mentally competent and shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for minor children.

I'm going to try to stop swatting back this enabler apologist, women are poor widdle simpletons who can't be expected to be responsible for their own actions and aren't as capable of subjecting their children to abusive lifestyles as men remarks.

You people want to assume women are just taller children, go ahead.  I don't agree.

This is such a weird argument, honestly. It's so weird. 

Nobody is one thing. I don't understand why some folks here seem to find it inconceivable that Anna is simultaneously Doing The Wrong Thing and also, in the same breath, Doing Her Best. She can be both Abused and Abuser. She can be Complicit without being a totally irreparable person. Every single person, regardless of gender, who grows up in this culture is abused. That's just true. It is emotional and psychological abuse, with a dash of stunting. Of course she's abused. They all are. Most of them are also, at the same time, abusers, to varying degrees and varying levels of awareness. I don't think it's crazy to say that Jim Bob is more aware of being a manipulative abuser than Anna might be. 

I'm going to add even another spicy take -- all the Duggars are impacted by fame. Some people think fame is abuse. I do too. There is nothing she can do in her life that won't lead to a million questions, probes, attentions. For the rest of us, we might be able to find a therapist or work out a plan or find new friends and leave. Fame poisons all of that. New friends might not be trustable, everybody will hound you about it, you can't make a decision without it being commented on. Everybody has an answer for Anna, but none of them are going to be the "right" one in the eyes of everybody around her -- it's unwinnable. As the years go on, we all understand the celebrity break downs we've seen as more sympathetic than the tabloids had shown them -- think of how you thought about Spears in 2007 vs now. 

To just say every poster who is being more nuanced about this is an a misogynist is a bad faith argument. We all contain multitudes, and Anna contains a lot of messed up multitudes because of how her whole life has gone. She can be both. 

[Gobsmacked]

I wonder how Jillypoo is taking the news .  Will she be so eager to tell the world that Nurie is married to Anna Duggar’s brother now? 

[Sky with diamonds]

5 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

What have any of them done to help people?  Not being snarky, genuine question.

 

Same thought I had. Maybe the time the Duggars took away the food they said they donated after the cameras left or was turned off .

I find it very hard to think of one good thing they did in recent years. It was all for show and attention imo. Even the corps some of the Duggars were invloved in was a farce.

[Browneyed Girl]

19 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I know.  He's also a Harvard educated lawyer.  

As someone who is die-hard Boston EVERYTHING this hurts my heart.  Not deluded enough to deny that other doucebags also have graduated from Harvard but couldn't he have at least gone to Yale?  

[formergothardite]

16 minutes ago, Irishy said:

I’m not sure what your definition of abused is. I think it’s safe to assume that any woman in fundamentalism is a victim of emotional abuse and coercive control.

I don't think we can assume that, though.  We have plenty of examples of fundies where women are the driving force or equal partners in the belief system.  Anna was raised in an environment that was conducive to leaving since so many of her siblings did leave. There have been zero signs she is unhappy with the fundie lifestyle. She is a rare fundie who actually could make  money to support herself if she left and spoke out. But all signs point to her wanting the fundie lifestyle. We have to be careful to not take agency away from her because she is a woman. We see this same attitude with Amy in the Jill Rod threads. Women in a fundie environment are just as capable of making awful decisions as men are. 

[Joe Pukepail]

14 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

The indictment should be posted after the hearing. Trump may not be president but a lot of the US Attorneys (there is no district attorney in Federal) are Trump appointees. Mitch and Lindsay pushed them through at warp speed.

They will ask for bail to be set tomorrow at the arraignment. I bet he gets it, unless the charges are the thing we all hope they aren't. (not trying to summon that SCARY red box) 

 I had some dealings recently with a federal case as a victim of a white nationalist stalker. He (an incel with lots of guns but not a flight risk) lived at home with very elderly parents and they were all awakened by Marshals and FBI with flash bangs at 6 am. 

I really hope Josh's children didn't have that additional trauma. 

I commented in the last thread about my experience with being served a federal warrant for someone residing with me (who was not home at the time). It was traumatic and horrible. It's been years, and I still flinch when there are people mingling in my apartment hallway or I hear an unexpected knock at the front door. 

I hope they'd at least have the courtesy to make sure the older kids were out of the house before going balls to the wall with kicking in the door and putting everyone in handcuffs, but I really don't know that I have that much faith in law enforcement.

In particular, if this was a warrant related to the type of crime we are all fearing, law enforcement people are really not inclined to treat anyone involved in those activities with gentleness. 

[postscript]

19 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think there are some assets that can't be included - like I'd imagine they wouldn't require a defendant to sell their only home especially if minor children resided there.

I hope someone who knows AR law on this chimes in as I'm curious now.

If it can be proved that the assets were transferred to Anna to shield them from Josh’s creditors, they might be forced to include them as part of Josh’s assets. Some assets could be excluded, but I don’t know how the marital home would be treated. The states treat ownership and division of marital property very differently. I know just enough about this area to be dangerous and I’m not licensed in Arkansas. 

if this decimates the Duggar finances, Josh might be forced to file bankruptcy. Maybe some of that homeschooling will come in useful! 

Josh does look drunk or high in the mug shot (though I’m not seeing the black eye). I would not be at all surprised if he had substance abuse problems, though I have no idea how he could hide them from his family. 

I can only hope the M kids were told in a gentle, age-appropriate manner and are being supported emotionally. This takes me back to when my father left when I was 13. We knew nothing before it happened, so it came as a shock, even though he hadn’t been around much the two years prior (he was always “traveling for work”). We then weren’t told the reason until they divorced some years later. He had left for another woman. I know my mother wanted to protect us, but as teens, we were old enough to know. My father, in fact, has never spoken to us about it. The poor handling caused issues that linger to this day. I hope it’s being handled better with the M kids, especially MacKynzie. 

[Alisamer]

19 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Wonder if PP or ZZ will pontificate smugly on how perfect and Godly they are and how the Duggars are all reprobates 

Oh I hope so. Because that'll inevitable blow up in their faces eventually.

Josh is a piece of human slime, even my "aren't the Duggars awesome, look they have so many kids and are debt-free and wow!" sister thinks he's a POS.

But the Anderson boys are no angels, and I wouldn't be the least surprised if one of them ended up in some trouble with the police at some point. They are on my "most likely to go off the fundie train in the BAD way" list.

[Bethy]

6 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

The usual conservative progression seems to be start with denial: it's a witch hunt! the feds are just bending to the liberal pressure. Then when it can no longer be denied they move to minimize and deflect: double standards! The dems didn't care when [insert liberal politician or actor even if the actor is like D list] did [insert something similar but likely either made up or exaggerated]. Finally when they can't deny that it was indeed something really bad we get Jesus forgave him so you need to move on.

And their followers will believe whatever they're told! My mom had a friend who was really into the Gothard/Duggar kool-aid years ago. We had lunch with her right after the molestation scandal broke. I brought it up and Mom's friend practically came across the table at me that it was all just a big misunderstanding that was being used to hurt the family/the cause of Christ/etc. (I don't remember all the specifics, just that I got a verbal beatdown for even hinting that anything illegal or immoral actually happened.)

Mom isn't friends with her anymore. That wasn't the inciting factor but I can't say as I'm sorry.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

13 minutes ago, Antimony said:

She can be Complicit without being a totally irreparable person.

I agree with this completely.  And if she makes changes to where she is putting the well being of her children ahead of her husband, cult, and personal need for fame I will applaud that.  People can grow and change and should be given credit for trying to be better.

But until she changes this is who she is.  I'm not going to give her headpats because humans are capable of growth until she shows any inclination to prioritize her children.  People are complex and multi-faceted and no one is all good or all evil....but putting your children first is not complicated.  It's her duty.

[Irishy]

7 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I don't think we can assume that, though.  We have plenty of examples of fundies where women are the driving force or equal partners in the belief system.  Anna was raised in an environment that was conducive to leaving since so many of her siblings did leave. There have been zero signs she is unhappy with the fundie lifestyle. She is a rare fundie who actually could make  money to support herself if she left and spoke out. But all signs point to her wanting the fundie lifestyle. We have to be careful to not take agency away from her because she is a woman. We see this same attitude with Amy in the Jill Rod threads. Women in a fundie environment are just as capable of making awful decisions as men are. 

I agree it’s important not to take agency away. But we must have a gender based analysis of abuse. It is so much harder for women. 
I

[happy atheist]

Oh the sweet, sweet schadenfreude!

[IReallyAmHopewell]

2 hours ago, Jencendiary said:

The Mirror, The Sun, The Daily Hate -- all the sites covering this with quotes from family insiders -- are papers with no journalistic credibility. Disgregard. 

Surprisingly, they have been known to be right though.

[Joe Pukepail]

37 minutes ago, Irishy said:

I’m not sure what your definition of abused is. I think it’s safe to assume that any woman in fundamentalism is a victim of emotional abuse and coercive control.

But I don't think it's necessarily a given that if a family member has money, they're expected to fund the defendant's legal proceedings. It's at least possible that a person could come from a family with assets but still qualify for a public defender because of his own finances. 

In this case? There's no way that Jim Bob and the Duggarborg would ever allow Josh to use a public defender, no matter what the nature of the charges against him. Not in a million years. Or in four thousand years, which we all know is the age of the Earth.

Incidentally, I'm sure there are decent or even excellent public defenders out there, but my experience with them was dismal. To observe the difference in case outcome between a defendant who has a court appointed public defender and one who can pay for his own lawyer is really striking. To paraphrase a quotation that I read somewhere, there's no one in the courtroom who is in more danger than a poor man who is innocent.

[Cornelia13]

Advanced notice of arrest - this happens often. State cases and Federal cases ... the guns blazing, sirens blowing happens in very few instances. In more cases than not, a person knows when they are being investigated. Their lawyer(s) will arrange a time to be taken into custody or turn themselves in. Bail/Bond can't be set until arraignment. Charges will be announced then ...

 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Just now, Joe Pukepail said:

ncidentally, I'm sure there are decent or even excellent public defenders out there, but my experience with them was dismal. To observe the difference in case outcome between a defendant who has a court appointed public defender and one who can pay for his own lawyer is really striking.

THIS. It is true that public defenders have staggering caseloads, but 10 seconds of reading a file in the hall before court is not exactly "preparation." [Family member has been to prison so this is first-hand information] Your results may vary.

9 minutes ago, Irishy said:

We have plenty of examples of fundies where women are the driving force or equal partners in the belief system.

Sadly, women are often attracted to it wanting to be stay-at-home Moms and with the dream of a happy big family, Sad.

[Flossie]

Anyone know how long an arraignment typically lasts?

Are observers allowed to watch?  Would they be allowed to text during the arraignment, or be required to wait until after to access their phone?

[Antimony]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree with this completely.  And if she makes changes to where she is putting the well being of her children ahead of her husband, cult, and personal need for fame I will applaud that.  People can grow and change and should be given credit for trying to be better.

But until she changes this is who she is.  I'm not going to give her headpats because humans are capable of growth until she shows any inclination to prioritize her children.  People are complex and multi-faceted and no one is all good or all evil....but putting your children first is not complicated.  It's her duty.

Okay, for everyone here, "putting your children first" probably means "a divorce, moving to a secular lifestyle, etc." I see why.

If Anna does do that, she has to do the following;
1. Cut off a lot of her family that provides her financial and child support care 
2. Everything about a divorce
3. Uproot their lives completely
4. Face (potentially more) emotional instability herself.
5. Financial instability, unless she starts selling interviews (which might be more damaging to her, her kids, and her already hypothetical burning bridges.)
6. Huge publicity. 

We also don't know what the charges are yet. If they're CP, my opinion will change, but if they're financial crimes, maybe she might find herself relieved -- she could get to keep her support system that she's become totally enmeshed into *and* not have to see her husband. I think she's in a "The Devil You Know" kind of situation and she might think that even this relative stability is better for her kids than the total instability of moving them all out. 

I don't think what she's doing is the right choice for her family either, but I can see how she might be making that decision and still be motivated by her children first. 

Many people here have been very kind about things like, "I'd help her" and the like, and I get that -- I land there too, often. But I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut if Anna knocked on my door and said "Hello please teach me evolution and tell me where to find the nearest therapist." To her, the outside world has a bunch of ulterior untrusted motives. At least the Fundie world is somewhere she knows how to navigate.