Checking in with Jasmine B

[Turtle]

I googled Voddie Bauchams because I didn't know he was in the Houston area, and it shows that he is the pastor of Grace Family Baptist Church and has the current meeting place as an 7th Day Adventist Church. Seems strange to me that he is a relatively big name pastor but they don't have an actual church building?

[Brainsample]

I googled Voddie Bauchams because I didn't know he was in the Houston area, and it shows that he is the pastor of Grace Family Baptist Church and has the current meeting place as an 7th Day Adventist Church. Seems strange to me that he is a relatively big name pastor but they don't have an actual church building?

After the first big church split, the attendance at the church was low, and it then mushroomed into 400 people inside two years. I only vaguely remember people mentioning the building, but this may account for the multiple church plants that the group did and for their use of another building.

I end up asking more questions about doctrine and the more functional aspects of the doctrines of the FIC, because from my observations, these churches just split and split and split, over and over.

[MamaJunebug]

After the first big church split, the attendance at the church was low, and it then mushroomed into 400 people inside two years. I only vaguely remember people mentioning the building, but this may account for the multiple church plants that the group did and for their use of another building.

I end up asking more questions about doctrine and the more functional aspects of the doctrines of the FIC, because from my observations, these churches just split and split and split, over and over.

Housekeeping: Good to see you, undermuchgrace/brainsample!! I thought your style and subject matter sounded famililar!

Question. When the above churches split, what is the net result on numbers? I know you can't quote with statistical certainty, but would you say that the split-offs attract new members, or even converts from outside Christianity?

Or do they chug along in "split" mode, with whatever number of disaffected families continuing at the same membership level?

Or do some of the 'castoffs' from the split eventually return to real [sic] churches, or wander away from corporate church membership all together?

Just your best guesses from your observations and experience. Thanks!! :)

[notsocommon]

Brain Sample (UMG?)

All this you have said concerns me about some friends that are members of his church. I can't believe the amount of control he has over them. Can I PM you with some info of my situation with the members?

[tehgoobster]

Thank you for your posts, Cindy. You have done a lot of good work shedding light on these groups. :)

[justlurking]

My question du jour is about her older brother(s). I clearly remember that she has at least one who is her contemporary. Where is he? Helping Voddie and Bridget? At home? Away? Doing what? Kudos to Voddie for scaling back his travel schedule to less than a week every month. However, those little boys surely could use extra male leadership and example, no? And Bridget and Jasmine could - I'm just guessing - use some additional support around the ole homestead.

If anybody knows, please, tell. :)

Jasmine is the oldest child. The next oldest is Voddie Baucham III (aka Trey) who's 17 or 18 now and is currently enrolled in some college studying art history (or something like that)---(what's that about useless liberal arts degrees Voddie?). I don't know if he's full or part-time, but I know Voddie brags about "taking over" the education of his son when he turned 13 (so he can "disciple" and teach him MANLY ways). I believe Voddie said that part of this education entails making sure he's with the boy most of the time---so Trey is fortunate enough to travel the country and go abroad whenever his father has speaking engagements---unlike Jasmine who has to go to College Minus and spend all day at home homeschooling (and spanking) kids that she didn't agree to raise.

[Brainsample]

Brain Sample (UMG?)

All this you have said concerns me about some friends that are members of his church. I can't believe the amount of control he has over them. Can I PM you with some info of my situation with the members?

I'd be happy to correspond about it.

What I hear reminds me of the little girl with the little curl in the middle of her forehead. The things about that church that are great are really great. The things that are not are very difficult to figure out, and most people have been intimidated or stripped of confidence or cannot get beyond the mind trip of how genuinely nice Voddie can be that they get stuck. Some people ignore the "something's wrong here" factor, but for those who try to work through it, it gets tough because the good things about that church are very good.

[Brainsample]

Housekeeping: Good to see you, undermuchgrace/brainsample!! I thought your style and subject matter sounded famililar!

Question. When the above churches split, what is the net result on numbers? I know you can't quote with statistical certainty, but would you say that the split-offs attract new members, or even converts from outside Christianity?

Or do they chug along in "split" mode, with whatever number of disaffected families continuing at the same membership level?

Or do some of the 'castoffs' from the split eventually return to real [sic] churches, or wander away from corporate church membership all together?

Just your best guesses from your observations and experience. Thanks!! :)

The people who tend to contact me are the people who wander away and don't feel safe or comfortable anywhere, and they tend to avoid the split-offs. And if you leave (even without conflict), you're almost shunned, or you get the message that you've behaved wrongly for walking away. If I asked them about numbers and such, they probably couldn't tell me that kind of thing.

Voddie has had conflicts with ministers, as I've mentioned. I know that there is one FIC oriented and adoption minded church that has been involved in one of these splits in a couple of different ways. I think Voddie's original FIC venture involved actually getting together with two other pastor/elder people and splitting that church, though I can't quite tell you the details because I don't keep a scorecard and probably should have. Some of these people are genuinely believers in the FIC, and I've heard that their version is not anything like Phillip's version or Voddie's. (I'm not a big fan because I am obsolete if not considered evil in them.) What those numbers are like, I don't know.

People refer to these divisions as splits, because I think a number of people do leave and follow disgruntled people. And the bodies pile up as time goes on, so there are a growing number of disenfranchised elders and deacons, I guess, that have walked off or been cast off.

Here's another thought, and we never really know the answer to this one: How many of the "church plants" are not just to move more threatening leaders away from Voddie so that they are not competition. Other groups have done very similar things.

[Brainsample]

For those who are not up on old Monty Python episodes, "Brainsample" comes from something like episode 7 in the first season, I think. Sad that I know that.

There are extra terrestrials (who are huge blancmanges) who want to win at Wimbledon, so they start turning everyone in England into Scottsmen, because everyone knows they are the worst at tennis. Mr. and Mrs. Brainsample end up defeating the blancmanges by showing up at Wimbledon and eating them, and I believe Scotland wins.

I thought in an obscure way, this was something like my iconoclastic activities and was the best reference to such that I could come up with from the Flying Circus. I tear down icons, and the Brainsamples ate the blacmanges who deceitfully transformed everyone into something they weren't (Scotsmen) so they could get something for themselves. But Graham Chapman and Eric Idle in drag had the last word and the last mouthful.

Sad. I know.

[Deleted12]

Brainsample,

I know all about the little girl with the little curl. :D

For people who do not know this rhyme:

There was a little girl

Who had a little curl

Right in the middle of her forehead

When she was good she was very, very good...

...and when she was bad she was horrid. :twisted:

(My mom totally used to tease me with this when I was little. In jest, ya know?)

[notsocommon]

Brainsample....

I tried to PM you, but it said you had PM turned off

[apple1]

Question. When the above churches split, what is the net result on numbers? I know you can't quote with statistical certainty, but would you say that the split-offs attract new members, or even converts from outside Christianity?

Or do they chug along in "split" mode, with whatever number of disaffected families continuing at the same membership level?

Or do some of the 'castoffs' from the split eventually return to real [sic] churches, or wander away from corporate church membership all together?

Just your best guesses from your observations and experience. Thanks!! :)

I can't address Baucham's situation; I really know nothing about that.

As for church splits, in general:

I have seen a few of them, and some "non"-splits where the disaffected or marginalized or whatever just walk away. Some go to other similar churches. A few go to other churches that are different. And the experience turns some away from church altogether. And of this last group, some remain believers in the sense of personal spirituality and some become agnostic or atheistic.

That's my experience.

[Brainsample]

I guess I did turn it off. It wouldn't let me PM Burris when I first signed up, so I got mad.

I still didn't get in touch with her.

Hit the email button, or the profile, or the link to my blog which has an email thingy. It's easier for me to keep track of stuff via email-- I think that's what I was thinking...

[Brainsample]

I should be PM enabled now if that's a preference. ??

[Advocate]

@ notsocommon - please PM me - I can probably help you.

[Brainsample]

The best thing you can do with anyone in a group is to befriend them, winsomely suspend your own feelings about it when talking to them, and try to ask them questions about what they don't like. Create a safe place for them to talk about their doubts without having to deal with you getting defensive. Ask questions about the doubts that they have. (At church, they're not allowed to express criticism, and not permitted to express it freely, anyway.) Learn as much as you can about how things work and what appeals to them about the place. Just listen and don't react. Hide your expressions or protests. Just listening helps the person feel safe to think about their own doubts when they are alone, too. They need encouragement to get away from the groupthink so that their own doubts can surface. If you just let them talk and feel safe, this gives them an outlet that they can trust.

Then capitalize upon the stuff that doesn't make sense. For instance, I understand that they don't really forbid ladies Bible studies, but if they taught one, there would be a problem teaching it, even if Voddie did because the head of home could not be there to discern for the wife. There is potential for conflict, because what if one husband believed a different doctrine or interpretation of Scripture than what was taught at the Bible Study. That would be inducing the wife to sin against the husband by not submitting her opinion to his particular doctrine. It would be as bad as a woman going out to work or whore herself for the corporate world.

Voddie apparently openly teaches that unless all of the men agree on the doctrine which is pretty narrowly interpreted, an FIC won't work and can't work. So if you disagree on eschatology or divorce/remarriage or a very peripheral/intramural doctrine, you're going to fail, so don't try.

Here's the rub. I prayed at the altar to receive Jesus when I was five years old. I was a Dispensationalist and very Pentecostal and very Zionist because that's what my mother believed and how she trained me. I went to the Assemblies of God. I've transitioned through all sorts of other denominations which I think is reflective of my spiritual growth, and my doctrine has changed many times, but my faith in who God is and His identity has only strengthened and has remained unchanged. (But I see who man is very differently than I did in the beginning.) After careful thought and examination of the verses and other doctrines, I came to reject some doctrines and accept others. I've held different views on some subjects and have come back to my original beliefs. Others, I would not touch with a ten foot pole.

Ask questions naturally and think about the loopholes in what they tell you about how the place functions. Don't make a list of questions. Just let them come up spontaneously -- and doing that involves listening to and learning about what they tell you about the system and how it works functionally. Be curious and attuned to the discord between what the doctrine says/intends and what actually takes place when applied in real life.

Could or is a change in a held belief a sign and the fruit of spiritual growth as a Christian, as we are more conformed into Christ's image every day? If the old junk is dropping away, is that not sometimes going to include abandoning some doctrine?

If a set doctrine on all matters is absolutely critical to maintaining an FIC, what do people do when they realize that they've accepted a doctrine that they're now convicted is wrong? Do they have to abandon their beliefs or their church ties (and friends)? How long do you think a person should stay in an FIC if their doctrine's become more refined and differ from the FIC? What's the proper way to handle this? (Voddie seems to disqualify leadership for this. Would that make you disqualified from attending the church where you've invested your self and your own hard work and money?)

If Jesus said we should be one and should be coming together as a body of believers, and FICs can only work if all doctrines are static (even intramurals), and you can't even risk small study groups with women or probably children, how does the FIC promote unity? Is the FIC system similar to the IFB "Doctrine of Separation" in that sense? If the FIC system cannot or does not functionally support or enhance unity because of doctrine on the most basic level (personal communication between members of the same church due to potential exchange of ideas about doctrine/application that differ between families in the church), how can the FIC really be helping Christians come together in love and as a whole body. Jesus said at the Last Supper that he was giving them a new commandment -- to love one another, and His own would be known by that love. If doctrine can't hold believers together in a church, and believers have to leave because of the necessity for a pretty tight doctrinal code that affects how church members interact with one another, does that support love? Do the church splits and the driving off of elders support love? Doesn't love work tolerance as opposed to intolerance? ETC...

Your goal should not necessarily be to engage them and prove them wrong at all costs. Your goal INITIALLY is to create a safe place for this person to express doubt. Just let the doubt float to the top of their thoughts, and it will come when they feel a place of trust developing. Ask questions, but try to be non-confrontational. You are primarily getting the person to listen to their own thoughts of doubt as opposed to some kind of apologia debate thing. Express your opinions gently, and hold your tongue if the person gets defensive. Self-defense tells you that they feel threatened, and that's not what you should want to do. Your primary mission should be stimulation of their own thinking (because they've had to set that aside to be a part of the group). You're not going to help them if you just indoctrinate them or push them toward your opinions.

You may not get anywhere, and the person may avoid you because of the discussions, but hang tight. They will come and find you when they're ready to talk -- usually. And there will be some pet doctrines that they may never want to question. You just have to let them go on their own journey.

[notsocommon]

@ notsocommon - please PM me - I can probably help you.

.....and you are??

[Brainsample]

.....and you are??

Lets hope it's not Voddie! :mrgreen:

(I hope the icon is not associated with Mr. Yuck who is also green. I like the grin better on the green grinning icon. And green is hip these days. ;)

[notsocommon]

My thoughts, exactly...or someone from the 'church.'

Like I am gonna PM someone whos very first post is to ME in THIS thread. Not stupid.

I am a St Patrick's Day baby, so green is cool with me! ;)

[Brainsample]

@ notsocommon - please PM me - I can probably help you.

Crickets still chirping...

[notsocommon]

[Advocate]

No, of course I'm not Voddie! :lol:

Let's just say I have some 'inside' information about the church where Voddie is an elder, as I am one of those that USED to be there. You might call me a refugee from that place.

Notsocommon's comment about someone they knew at that church got my interest - I know more about that place than I care to. :shhh:

[Advocate]

.....and you are??

After a few months of 'lurking', I have decided to become more active around here. I have come out of this 'movement', and have a lot of information I'm willing to start [carefully] sharing. I still have family and 'friends' in the movement, so I have to be careful, but I have grown so very tired of a lot of their stupid a$% games.

[Advocate]

"Also please note that the last big church split happened about a year ago which, to the very best of my understanding, left Voddie as the sole elder and pastor of the church. Each time there is a war for power, a number of people leave his church, confused and disillusioned. They are generally too ashamed to talk to one another and are confused because Voddie's other doctrines are so solid Biblically, and he is apparently a fantastic expository teacher. “How can he know so much about one matter and be so off in others?†People find this quite disturbing on top of all of the additional social pressure in the church. It's apparently quite a confusing place to attend and leave because Voddie is so persuasive and talented. "

You are correct in most of this, except for the current church leadership. The original church in Spring has 3 elders, VB being one of those (and the only 1 left from the original beginning of the church). There is a church up north in Conroe that was 'planted', and it has 2 elders.

Yes, VB is an amazing speaker, but you are right about the wake of destruction and broken relationships left in his path.

[FuManchu]

I quite like Jasmine Baucham; it's a shame that Voddie's time in Oxford (and I won't yet say at Oxford, because I don't fully understand what course he was doing there, especially as he only uses it for anecdotes about how he outwitted his godless tutors) didn't make him more ambitious for her education.

I also feel sorry for her, because brainwashing aside, she has real and urgent reasons not to break out of her family's mould. If one of the Duggars did, no problem - there are plenty more where they came from! If one of the Phillips did, no problem - Doug and Beall are important enough that they get members of their congregation to do most of their work anyway. But Jasmine comes from a family with multiple young children, a travelling father, and a very ill mother; if she doesn't spend her youth homeschooling her brothers and doing the chores, it just won't happen at all, so asserting her independence is much trickier.