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Checking in with Jasmine B


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All She Has to Say

I'm so glad that I named this blog "all she has to say..."

Because the truth is... what little I post here is all I have to say.

(snip)

Progress reports? I'm still chugging along with college. I've gone from feeling harried and overwhelmed to feeling very in control. I wouldn't rest in this too much though... my stress comes in cycles. =) Asher is still learning well. I've discovered that he has a head for numbers more than letters, which means he's the exact opposite of me. All of my siblings are getting cuter and cuter every time I glance in their direction -they're growing up so fast. My new year's resolutions have actually been going pretty well. I got carded the other day and thought I wouldn't stop grinning -can't believe I actually have a driver's license in my wallet after five years of procrastination. And I am blissfully ignorant of what the online trolls are saying, which robs me of a modicum of amusement and a boatload of stress. And God has continued to be so good to me. I'm learning more about him with each passing day.

http://allshehastosay.blogspot.com/2011 ... o-say.html

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Why is she homeschooling her siblings?

Because her mother's too sick and her father's always outta town--still don't understand what kind of adoption agency would give children to these people....

Some more idle speculation...why do you think Jasmine got carded? Can't imagine she was buying alcohol or cigarettes--even though she is of age.

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I don't think most of the vision forum types are against all alcohol, just abuse of it. But it could have been many things, even spray paint and sometimes even sharpies.

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Because her mother's too sick and her father's always outta town--still don't understand what kind of adoption agency would give children to these people....

Some more idle speculation...why do you think Jasmine got carded? Can't imagine she was buying alcohol or cigarettes--even though she is of age.

What's wrong with her mom?

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I think I heard that she had Lupus.

Maybe she was buying psuedophed OTC? Summer allergies. :?:

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I think I heard that she had Lupus.

Maybe she was buying psuedophed OTC? Summer allergies. :?:

:( How sad.

Good point about the OTC. It's crazy now. I practically never buy OTC meds, but when I have to, I feel like they're looking at me funny :?

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What's wrong with her mom?

She has lupus, advanced osteoporosis, and arthritis. From VBM Ministries, December 2009 post:

God, in his providence, has also seen fit to trust us with an even heavier burden lately. Three years ago, my wife, Bridget, was diagnosed with Lupus. And as if that wasn’t enough, the next few months brought diagnoses of advanced Osteoporosis, and Arthritis in the lower back (yes, this is extremely unusual for a young woman... especially a young black woman). Meanwhile, the Lord blessed us with three babies and a new church plant over the past three and a half years. God has used Bridget’s illness to cause us to be more aware of our dependence on him than we ever were before. As a result, we have all had to learn to slow down and prioritize. I’ve gained a renewed appreciation for the words no and enough. I’ve also reduced my number of travel days (down from 10 to 8 and moving toward 6 days per month), and learned to live with less sleep. We’ve all learned to pitch in a little more around the home, and to keep an eye on mama to make sure she eats right, exercises, takes her supplements and gets plenty of sleep (yes, Virginia, that means I get up at night with the baby).
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She has lupus, advanced osteoporosis, and arthritis. From VBM Ministries, December 2009 post:

I wonder what kind of medical coverage Bridget is getting from Samaritan Ministries. I mean, does she have to submit an "ask" or whatever they hell they call it anytime she needs to purchase prescriptions?

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You know, I kind of like Jasmine. I don't agree with her views, of course, but she seems way more thoughtful than the average fundie.

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I hate all of their fundieness, but gosh it breaks my heart to hear about someone in such a painful condition.

Agreed. I can't imagine how tough it must be to live with a chronic, painful condition. My heart goes out to anyone in that kind of situation.

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She annoys me because of posts like this:

allshehastosay.blogspot.com/2011/05/five-myths-of-unrequited-love.html

This is the kind of love that gives us the maturity to see beyond our aching to own the person that we love... and to trust that the Lord will do what is best in his life, even if his path is never meant to run parallel to yours. This is the kind of love that allows us to let go of the pangs of unrequited affection and to ache for something far deeper: the steadfast love of Christ. This is the sort of love that we should pray will be the basis for every kind of affection we feel in singleness and in marriage. And this is the only love -the love of others through Christ alone -that can guide our decisions.

I'm sorry, what? Not that she's wrong or right - she has NEVER HAD A BOYFRIEND. She's advising girls? And the whole "wait for what Christ has in store" thing? Will keep you single, Jasmine. Your belief in sitting around and wishing hopefully while home-schooling and never leaving your front porch - awesome choice!

Can't stand her self-righteous a**. But I don't wish her mother's illness on anyone. I have a good friend with lupus. It bites.

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Autoimmune disorders are miserable, and any chronic disease is miserable, too, especially when it does not disfigure a person. You look fine, you can walk... People run out of sympathy because they aren't always reminded of your limitations and have expectations of what they think is reasonable. Most people have compassion in the short term, but the long term stuff is more difficult. All people with chronic illness have my great sympathy and empathy.

Voddie is bright and talented, and I'm not surprised that Jasmine is either. I don't follow her writings, and I try to stay away, for the most part, from the discussion of the kids in these big name families. I don't think the kids have any viable choice to talk about anything other than the party line as a matter of survival. Some also have only ever seen black and white, and they cant conceive of color in terms of ideas. They appear to have abundant and available choices, but they are not viable or are very limited. What seems free and available to us, they've never dreamed of or are in such fear, options are unthinkable.

The statements quoted here from Jasmine's blog about love and relationships are variations on Voddie's pet doctrine about love really just being more about commitment. One of his soapbox topics concerns a confusion of erotic love with friendship love and with God's benevolent love - though IMO, he cheapens all of them by defining love as based in duty primarily (actually a killer of intimacy, not that it can't grow). There's also a perspective in Calvinism, because of the determinism, that labels autonomy and free choice as evil, and so ensues the name calling in Calvinist history wherein some have called non-Calvinists "libertines" and "antinomian" (against the Law). It's my assumption that Voddie follows Covenant Theology in particular, and there is a stronger tie to the Law and Old Covenant than in other protestant theologies.

So consider that Jasmine is repeating what she's heard, over and over, and she's required as a matter of survival to tow the party line with her father. What's nice about today's society is that you can get an education or trade and get out of the house if you don't like the rules of mom and dad at home. When you're made dependent upon mom and dad, you don't really have a whole lot of clear choices and viable options.

I think that of all these young women, Jasmine will be one who will have the savvy, intelligence and resourcefulness to break free from it all eventually. It may not happen full force and may not happen until she's 45 or so when her hormones shift and she enters a new phase of growth and development that's less focused on people pleasing. Then you realize that your life is not about your parents, has more to do with your children, and about that time fo

Late Edit the next day -- interrupted by computer issues, and we'll see how this goes:

When you realize that your life has less to do with your parents and more to do with your children, and about the time that your children have grown, you realize that your children are growing into their own, you gain a lot of freedom. (Some of that is actually physiologic.)

Perhaps this will be when Jasmine can step out into her own?

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I guess that explains why out of almost every other SAHD Jasmine seems to be the least marriage obsessed? She even said on her old blog that as a black woman her odds of getting married were diminished.

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She annoys me because of posts like this:

allshehastosay.blogspot.com/2011/05/five-myths-of-unrequited-love.html

I'm sorry, what? Not that she's wrong or right - she has NEVER HAD A BOYFRIEND. She's advising girls? And the whole "wait for what Christ has in store" thing? Will keep you single, Jasmine. Your belief in sitting around and wishing hopefully while home-schooling and never leaving your front porch - awesome choice!

Can't stand her self-righteous a**. But I don't wish her mother's illness on anyone. I have a good friend with lupus. It bites.

I do find Jasmine a bit smug, but she is a product of her environment. She is very smart and I like her inquisitive nature. I wish she could cut free a bit, and meet people who are different than her.

But boy, do I feel for her mother. Lupus, advanced osteoporosis and arthritis are horrible diseases. I hope Mrs. Baucham is getting all the help she needs.

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I'll say this for her: She stands up for herself. When I quoted her as repeatedly using the term "wage slave" she called me out by screenname and said she never did. I actually spent 20 minutes of my life combing her posts to confirm or deny. Didn't find a "wage slave" on the site. So did she expunge the term from her blog or did I, in my dotage, mis-remember the author?

My point is this: If she stands up to faceless old ladies and other trolls now, later she might stand up to the ideas she's accepted without question heretofore.

Which would be fine with me.

My question du jour is about her older brother(s). I clearly remember that she has at least one who is her contemporary. Where is he? Helping Voddie and Bridget? At home? Away? Doing what? Kudos to Voddie for scaling back his travel schedule to less than a week every month. However, those little boys surely could use extra male leadership and example, no? And Bridget and Jasmine could - I'm just guessing - use some additional support around the ole homestead.

If anybody knows, please, tell. :)

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I don't know how Mrs. B can keep adopting with all of her medical issues. I had to get testimonials from Doctors, work, etc. to adopt, and I am much younger and have only one chronic disease, which I keep under very good control.

Also, I don't understand, other than her fundie royalty status, how she is getting decent care with her "insurance". I have decent coverage, but I find it difficult to get everything I need without paying a ton out of pocket.

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I feel bad for her mother, but why do they keep adopting the babies? Why?

Here is what I understand of Voddie, from his books, from my direct correspondence with him, from people he's used and thrown away, and from former followers. Some of what I write will be redundant for some of you. And hopefully my computer will comply! It's shut off three times this morning.

The short answer is that I believe that Voddie and his wife continue to adopt because they are under pressure to do so. That is complicated to discern and speculate about motive, because Voddie has a very bad habit of saying whatever is politically expedient for him in the moment, depending on the group he addresses. (If he's being questioned about being too strict with Jasmine, he tells people that she was free to go to Boston to study music or something, but she chose to stay home. If he's questioned about being to lenient, he says that they chose College Plus to keep her safe and compliant with the “save your daughters from Dinah's fate†crowd. Send your daughter to college, and she'll get raped and have three abortions...)

He may have become somewhat of a true believer himself in the idea that being pro-life and pro-family means that you MUST have as many children as possible or adopt if necessary. (I understand that illness, age, or infertility is not an excuse, and this is part of why I was rejected in these circles.)

There is pressure to do this in his own church, but there is also pressure amongst the leadership in the FIC also. You have to prove your spiritual worth through compliance with the model. I believe that another factor involves Voddie's desire to remain marketable and to sell his books amongst the circles that view a large family as a mark of God's favor and your faithful Christian living. It does not all come from Phillips, and I must be honest and say that this also comes from Louisville, KY (men like Al Mohler and Russell Moore who I believe is being groomed to take Al's position, and I believe Al has his long-term sights set on Focus on the Family).

In addition, I understand from the above stated sources that Voddie sees himself as the new Moses to Calvinists, the Southern Baptist Convention, the “Black Church,†“Black Calvinists,†and the Family Integrated Church. He has all of the truth that the Universal Church needs to be perfectly right with God, and I understand that he is zealous to purify each one of these sectors by uniting them in the perfect way – a unique way that has been revealed to him in particular. Again, it is hard to say how much of this is genuine and how much of this is just widening his demographic.

In his book about Family Integrated Church or worship or whatever it was, he says himself that he was both a neglectful father and a controlling hot head with a problem with anger. He describes how he had to “completely retrain†Jasmine as a 12 year old, though little was said about Jasmine's brother who is nearer to her age. In order to correct his neglect, he sought out people in the Houston area and learned about the FIC. As a dedicated student and scholar, he then set out to learn all that he could about the FIC and related ideas which lead him to people like Doug Phillips. I know that within Phillips' local following, poor health is no excuse for not adopting, and you MUST have more than five children, at least. People that do not adopt and do not have children are called feminist and are judged as in rebellion against God. In order to maintain favor in these groups (and to keep selling books to them), you must adopt and must have a large family. Whether Phillips brainwashed him or influenced him, whether it is a marketing plan, or whether it is a true belief, I don't know.

I do find it interesting that leaders like RC Sproul, Jr. have told people that in order to help the church, they've specifically adopted sons and not daughters. That bothers me a great deal, given the rest of the problems in their belief system. I don't know if that's also true of Voddie or not.

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Brainsample - thank you. Interesting if troubling insights into these leaders & their cults. IIRC, the Scott Browns adopted all of their children & apparently stopped at four. Perhaps that was before they entered the ranks of fundie royalty.

I also wonder about an outfit like Samaritan Ministries being willing to cover Mrs. B's array of illnesses, all of which are serious & debilitating, not to mention requiring ongoing medical treatment or at least monitoring. After all, a mother commenting at Kelly Crawford's blog said that SM refused to cover their autistic child. I'll have to find SM's policy statement & see what they actually say.

Given this model, though, I suppose that we can expect poor Kelly Bradrick to produce at least one more child.

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I'll say this for her: She stands up for herself. When I quoted her as repeatedly using the term "wage slave" she called me out by screenname and said she never did. I actually spent 20 minutes of my life combing her posts to confirm or deny. Didn't find a "wage slave" on the site. So did she expunge the term from her blog or did I, in my dotage, mis-remember the author?

My point is this: If she stands up to faceless old ladies and other trolls now, later she might stand up to the ideas she's accepted without question heretofore.

Which would be fine with me.

My question du jour is about her older brother(s). I clearly remember that she has at least one who is her contemporary. Where is he? Helping Voddie and Bridget? At home? Away? Doing what? Kudos to Voddie for scaling back his travel schedule to less than a week every month. However, those little boys surely could use extra male leadership and example, no? And Bridget and Jasmine could - I'm just guessing - use some additional support around the ole homestead.

If anybody knows, please, tell. :)

Oh, Mama Junebug,

Did this on the word processor first so that I can get it posted. I don't know that I'd put up a smiley face in the telling, however. I think it's more of a sad telling that I broach carefully for these kids' sakes. I believe that they have been pawn's in Voddie's ambitious games, and I find the discussion a bit troubling because it concerns them. Why should they be made examples of their father's ambition -- and I don't want to encourage the process he's already begun. So I find these things rather difficult.

I think that of all of these young women, Jasmine has the best chance of breaking free. I think she's definitely going to beat Jinger to it if she can break the gravity of the vortex of her father's demanding anger and control. (Again, he admits the rage problem in at least one of his books.)

In 2007 when I watched the “Return of the Daughters†video, Jasmine does mention that she's a “double minority,†so it doesn't surprise me that she may have used this kind of language. I have also heard former followers describe Jasmine as most notably “feminist,†and Voddie didn't arrest this tendency at age 12 (as he states in his first FIC book)! Jasmine is described as quite a self-determined, autonomous girl. That said, I think that she's developed much character in recent years from what I've been told. She sounds like the kind of daughter you'd be proud to have and the kind of friend you'd be blessed to have at this point. I'm a fan, not a critic, in my estimation. I am a critic of Voddie, however. He ought to know better and claims that he knows better than everyone.

Though there is little in his books about his son (Jasmine's contemporary), he also had serious problems with what's been described to me as “self-discipline,†to put it nicely. Some believe that Voddie took this son with him when he traveled because he needed a whole lot of “guidance,†and that the FIC concept of discipleship and apprenticeship was just an excuse to keep the kid from getting into too much trouble. I understand that he's not given a whole lot of attention for this reason, and I've heard some say that he's, well, not the poster child for the FIC son. Things may be improved with him, as I've had contact with several people who were run off, left Voddie's church, or stopped following Voddie some time ago. The church has split at least twice, and it seems when there is a disagreement, Voddie disqualifies his fellow elders from ministry in the church which he argues as matters of doctrinal disputes, not as power struggles or as an attempt to keep Voddie accountable.

So some of what I've been told is dated. Some more recent people who contacted me last year after a split knew little or nothing of the son. I don't think that they openly identify him. That could mean that he's not very mature, or it could mean nothing at all. Maybe there's a sibling rivalry factor in play as well creating competition for attention, too? Jasmine may be the “hero†child, and her brother may be the “black sheep,†read right from the dysfunctional family script. The predisposing factors are all there – you have Voddie who has an admitted anger problem, he talks about family neglect, and now, his wife has a significantly debilitating illness. If there were no pre-existing problems which I find hard to believe because of all of the narcissism that seems to be at play, Mom Baucham's illness will add to the mix and intensify any problems that are there. The great focus placed on Jasmine as a worker in the family and in terms of publicity puts a greater burden on her, I think, when she sits down later to consider her life. (And some people never get to this in life, but I think that Jasmine will eventually find it unavoidable because she seems to have become such a fine person from what I'm told about her. And note that my interests concern Voddie and not her, just because I believe she's got limited choices at present.)

Also please note that the last big church split happened about a year ago which, to the very best of my understanding, left Voddie as the sole elder and pastor of the church. Each time there is a war for power, a number of people leave his church, confused and disillusioned. They are generally too ashamed to talk to one another and are confused because Voddie's other doctrines are so solid Biblically, and he is apparently a fantastic expository teacher. “How can he know so much about one matter and be so off in others?†People find this quite disturbing on top of all of the additional social pressure in the church. It's apparently quite a confusing place to attend and leave because Voddie is so persuasive and talented. That that same guy is Jasmine's dad. How do you reckon that at 21? I think that you follow the party line until you can get free from the heavy control, and then you run. Even then, you take much of the pressure with you.

Jasmine seems to be doing well, despite all of the setbacks she faces. I think that without the ambition factor in play for the family, they are probably decent people. I sincerely hope that they all do well in life, especially the son that we hear so little about, especially if there was some neglect as Voddie states. I wish health and wellness to all of them, especially Voddie's wife. But I am also told that Voddie's ambition is his great downfall and a flaw that has brought harm to others. I always am confounded by power motives, because my set of problems and flaws is different.

Again, I do all to stay out of the business of the children of these leaders for the most part, but I wanted to respond to this because of the many people who struggle with great difficulty regarding Voddie after being a member of his church or a follower. I still get a great deal of mail from very confused people who have either followed him as a speaker, a pastor, or as an author. People have been blackmailed into liking him, too. I hope that by posting some of this that people will find it through searches and such and will gain a bit more understanding concerning Voddie as it has been shared with me by all sorts of people who either feel too afraid or too uncomfortable to come forward. He's got a very deceptive package of spiritual abuse that very educated people and dutiful Christians have trouble identifying, and they tend to really struggle after they walk away from all things Voddie.

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Oh, Mama Junebug,

Did this on the word processor first so that I can get it posted. I don't know that I'd put up a smiley face in the telling, however. I think it's more of a sad telling that I broach carefully for these kids' sakes. I believe that they have been pawn's in Voddie's ambitious games, and I find the discussion a bit troubling because it concerns them. Why should they be made examples of their father's ambition -- and I don't want to encourage the process he's already begun. So I find these things rather difficult.

I think that of all of these young women, Jasmine has the best chance of breaking free. I think she's definitely going to beat Jinger to it if she can break the gravity of the vortex of her father's demanding anger and control. (Again, he admits the rage problem in at least one of his books.)

In 2007 when I watched the “Return of the Daughters†video, Jasmine does mention that she's a “double minority,†so it doesn't surprise me that she may have used this kind of language. I have also heard former followers describe Jasmine as most notably “feminist,†and Voddie didn't arrest this tendency at age 12 (as he states in his first FIC book)! Jasmine is described as quite a self-determined, autonomous girl. That said, I think that she's developed much character in recent years from what I've been told. She sounds like the kind of daughter you'd be proud to have and the kind of friend you'd be blessed to have at this point. I'm a fan, not a critic, in my estimation. I am a critic of Voddie, however. He ought to know better and claims that he knows better than everyone.

Though there is little in his books about his son (Jasmine's contemporary), he also had serious problems with what's been described to me as “self-discipline,†to put it nicely. Some believe that Voddie took this son with him when he traveled because he needed a whole lot of “guidance,†and that the FIC concept of discipleship and apprenticeship was just an excuse to keep the kid from getting into too much trouble. I understand that he's not given a whole lot of attention for this reason, and I've heard some say that he's, well, not the poster child for the FIC son. Things may be improved with him, as I've had contact with several people who were run off, left Voddie's church, or stopped following Voddie some time ago. The church has split at least twice, and it seems when there is a disagreement, Voddie disqualifies his fellow elders from ministry in the church which he argues as matters of doctrinal disputes, not as power struggles or as an attempt to keep Voddie accountable.

So some of what I've been told is dated. Some more recent people who contacted me last year after a split knew little or nothing of the son. I don't think that they openly identify him. That could mean that he's not very mature, or it could mean nothing at all. Maybe there's a sibling rivalry factor in play as well creating competition for attention, too? Jasmine may be the “hero†child, and her brother may be the “black sheep,†read right from the dysfunctional family script. The predisposing factors are all there – you have Voddie who has an admitted anger problem, he talks about family neglect, and now, his wife has a significantly debilitating illness. If there were no pre-existing problems which I find hard to believe because of all of the narcissism that seems to be at play, Mom Baucham's illness will add to the mix and intensify any problems that are there. The great focus placed on Jasmine as a worker in the family and in terms of publicity puts a greater burden on her, I think, when she sits down later to consider her life. (And some people never get to this in life, but I think that Jasmine will eventually find it unavoidable because she seems to have become such a fine person from what I'm told about her. And note that my interests concern Voddie and not her, just because I believe she's got limited choices at present.)

Also please note that the last big church split happened about a year ago which, to the very best of my understanding, left Voddie as the sole elder and pastor of the church. Each time there is a war for power, a number of people leave his church, confused and disillusioned. They are generally too ashamed to talk to one another and are confused because Voddie's other doctrines are so solid Biblically, and he is apparently a fantastic expository teacher. “How can he know so much about one matter and be so off in others?†People find this quite disturbing on top of all of the additional social pressure in the church. It's apparently quite a confusing place to attend and leave because Voddie is so persuasive and talented. That that same guy is Jasmine's dad. How do you reckon that at 21? I think that you follow the party line until you can get free from the heavy control, and then you run. Even then, you take much of the pressure with you.

Jasmine seems to be doing well, despite all of the setbacks she faces. I think that without the ambition factor in play for the family, they are probably decent people. I sincerely hope that they all do well in life, especially the son that we hear so little about, especially if there was some neglect as Voddie states. I wish health and wellness to all of them, especially Voddie's wife. But I am also told that Voddie's ambition is his great downfall and a flaw that has brought harm to others. I always am confounded by power motives, because my set of problems and flaws is different.

Again, I do all to stay out of the business of the children of these leaders for the most part, but I wanted to respond to this because of the many people who struggle with great difficulty regarding Voddie after being a member of his church or a follower. I still get a great deal of mail from very confused people who have either followed him as a speaker, a pastor, or as an author. People have been blackmailed into liking him, too. I hope that by posting some of this that people will find it through searches and such and will gain a bit more understanding concerning Voddie as it has been shared with me by all sorts of people who either feel too afraid or too uncomfortable to come forward. He's got a very deceptive package of spiritual abuse that very educated people and dutiful Christians have trouble identifying, and they tend to really struggle after they walk away from all things Voddie.

brainsample ... wow. Going to take a bit to think this through. Thank you for the insight...

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Brainsample - thank you. Interesting if troubling insights into these leaders & their cults. IIRC, the Scott Browns adopted all of their children & apparently stopped at four. Perhaps that was before they entered the ranks of fundie royalty.

I also wonder about an outfit like Samaritan Ministries being willing to cover Mrs. B's array of illnesses, all of which are serious & debilitating, not to mention requiring ongoing medical treatment or at least monitoring. After all, a mother commenting at Kelly Crawford's blog said that SM refused to cover their autistic child. I'll have to find SM's policy statement & see what they actually say.

Given this model, though, I suppose that we can expect poor Kelly Bradrick to produce at least one more child.

Thanks -- part of it is like getting my use out of the painful hours I've spent corresponding with troubled people who have come out of the Voddie model.

It seems that it is human nature and the path of least resistance in all controlling and power-motivated groups to reduce down to two classes. There always seems to be the ruling class and the common, lowly man. It is found in Communism just as it is found in churches. There are two sets of standards that come with power and money comes with power and power with money. (I think that sex falls in there, too, even if it is just a matter of obsession with gender as sublimation.)

In my own cultic church, they poured resources into the model examples of what made the group look good and what the group preferred. They had their pets, and my husband and I called this primary core group "the inner circle." Others who were just as true hearted and good could be denied the benefits that were lavished upon by the favored examples, all because of something like being 30 pounds overweight or having too many children. (The acceptable number grew as we attended there -- from two or three to an average of seven or eight children, and social pressure was applied to enhance conformity. But they were a little late to fully embrace the quiverfull thing, though they loved Gothard.) People like Kelly will get their needs covered, and lesser known or unknown people will be denied. Membership has it's privileges.

There are always two sets of standards -- and I think that this is problematic with Voddie in particular. He does not live by the same set of rules as everyone else, and he used his power to make sure of it from what I understand. He's accountable to few if any, and everyone else is accountable to him. I think that accounts for much of Jasmine's savvy, too, because she enjoyed these privileges. She's very different from any other SAHD -- even different from the Botkin girls because Voddie has a much wider appeal and he's not as creepy as Geoffrey, Lord Robotkin. She also had that 12 year period of being "totally out of control" or whatever it is that Voddie wrote of her in his book.

Consider that spiritually abusive groups are consumed with image consciousness, so Samaritan Ministries will likely cover Kelly's needs because she is royalty.

The other consideration in terms of Robert Lifton is what he describes as the Sacred Science and Doctrine over Person, or even Dispensing of Existence. The group dogma, the leaders, and the discernment of leaders can never be questioned in high demand groups. They can never be wrong, therefore they are not subject to the same rules and standards as the rank and file member of a group. If you ask questions or point out inconsistencies, you're punished, and compliance is rewarded with positive reinforcement. Kelly and women like Voddie's wife will get every consideration as a result. (Voddie may also have insurance through the SBC seminary or pastoral system, too.)

Scott Brown did adopt children (Kelly is one of them if I'm not mistaken). Brown is also more tightly affiliated with just one group -- the FIC Phillips bunch. Voddie is more of an outsider, and Karen Campbell once called him a "Johnny Come Lately" to the homeschooling movement in general and then tried to be a big player. Some see that as a bit of a slap in the face. Also consider that Brown is about 15 years older than Voddie or maybe more. Voddie's closer to 40 and Brown is closer to 60. So there is more pressure on Voddie to measure up to the standards that they set, because he's not exactly Vision Forum inner circle like Brown and because of his age. Voddie has less freedom if he wants to enjoy popularity in this sector of the FIC market.

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I just noticed in one of the tomes I wrote, I added a something and didn't change the verb, creating a really ignorant sounding subject verb agreement error:

I always am confounded by power motives, because my set of problems and flaws is different.

I went back to edit, and it reposted the whole long comment as a new one and didn't change it in the subsequent comments I changed. I just deleted the new correction.

Figures! Well, maybe it will give the Bauchams a much needed laugh which I do not begrudge them.

Cheers,

Cindy (undermuchgrace before our rapture)

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