No good ending here: Idaho mom dead, other kids missing

[Howl]

12 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

I can hardly wait to watch her arraignment.   I wonder if either defendant will try for a plea deal.

Interesting point!  How does a plea deal work when both defendants are scheduled to be tried together? 

On 4/11/2022 at 1:07 PM, TuringMachine said:

Big news, Lori has been restored to competency. Her arraignment is scheduled for April 19

I am still stunned by the trail of bodies - (and an attempted murder!) left by these two.   

[TuringMachine]

According the Kay and Larry's recent interview, JJ's biological father is planning on attending the trial. I don't think he's made any public appearances or statements before this.

[EmmieJ]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

Interesting point!  How does a plea deal work when both defendants are scheduled to be tried together? 

I am still stunned by the trail of bodies - (and an attempted murder!) left by these two.   

I'm basing my answer solely on what I've heard from Scott Reich (Crime Talk) and Emily D Baker on youtube, and from Law and Order reruns.  The first of multiple defendants facing trial for the same crime(s) who flips on the other(s), will get the best deal.  So I'm thinking if Lori says she will testify against Chad, her plea deal may be that she gets life in prison, perhaps with the possibility of parole after many years (or maybe not), but the death penalty is taken off the table.  This is just pure speculation on my part.

(This is a Canadian case, but if anyone is familiar with the name, Karla Homolka, she was able to weasel out of serious charges by flipping on her husband for the rape and murder of several minors in Ontario in the early 1990's.  She was his willing accomplice although I think the police simply couldn't believe a woman would participate in the horrible crimes, which is why she was able to get that plea deal.  No way do I think Lori or Chad will get any kind of plea deal that results in either of them spending only a short time in prison.)

Edited April 13, 2022 by EmmieJ

[Howl]

Lori Vallow is also facing charges of "one felony count of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder" of Charles Vallow in Maricopa County, AZ.  From a CNN article, "According to the grand jury indictment, Vallow agreed with her brother that “at least one of them or another would engage in conduct  constituting the offense of First Degree Murder.”

Were Lori to get life in prison without parole in Idaho, would AZ follow through or just save themselves the trouble and expense of a trial? 

...aaaaand now I have an ear worm of Johnny Cash singing "Mama Tried:  "I turned 21 in prison doing life without parole." 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Howl

[Bobology]

2 hours ago, Howl said:

...aaaaand now I have an ear worm of Johnny Cash singing "Mama Tried:

Not a bad song at all to get stuck in your head... and now mine, too, so... thanks

[DalmatianCat]

23 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

I'm basing my answer solely on what I've heard from Scott Reich (Crime Talk) and Emily D Baker on youtube, and from Law and Order reruns.  The first of multiple defendants facing trial for the same crime(s) who flips on the other(s), will get the best deal.  So I'm thinking if Lori says she will testify against Chad, her plea deal may be that she gets life in prison, perhaps with the possibility of parole after many years (or maybe not), but the death penalty is taken off the table.  This is just pure speculation on my part.

(This is a Canadian case, but if anyone is familiar with the name, Karla Homolka, she was able to weasel out of serious charges by flipping on her husband for the rape and murder of several minors in Ontario in the early 1990's.  She was his willing accomplice although I think the police simply couldn't believe a woman would participate in the horrible crimes, which is why she was able to get that plea deal.  No way do I think Lori or Chad will get any kind of plea deal that results in either of them spending only a short time in prison.)

I’m really hoping neither of them will be able to convince a jury that it was all Alex Cox’s idea and they were as horrified as everyone else.

[EmmieJ]

2 hours ago, DalmatianCat said:

I’m really hoping neither of them will be able to convince a jury that it was all Alex Cox’s idea and they were as horrified as everyone else.

I think that is unlikely - considering where those poor children were buried.  But I have a feeling that the defense attorneys will most certainly try to pin much or all of the blame on Alex Cox.  

I watched Hidden True Crime's podcast from yesterday, and Lori (can't recall her last name, but they jokingly refer to her as the good Lori, and she's the former prosecutor) said that she does not believe either Chad or Lori will flip on the other.  She's got some inside sources that seem to indicate that Lori still believes Chad is a prophet, that they are soul mates or whatever they call it, and Chad feels the same way.  So there's that tidbit.

Off topic, but anyone else here following Todd Todt's trial for the murder of his wife and 3 children?  He's claiming that he and his wife both believed the apocolypse was going to happen at the end of December 2019 and so they made a pact that they would kill their 3 children and then each other so they could be together forever in the afterlife.  Coincidentally, this happened right when the Feds were closing in on Todd for insurance fraud in his physical therapy business.

[Howl]

24 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

Off topic, but anyone else here following Todd Todt's trial for the murder of his wife and 3 children? 

So he got through with the wife and three kids and then couldn't quite bring himself to do in himself?  

There have been multiple instances of people murdering children related to a pending apocalypse or for some other distorted religious belief layered on top of mental illness. I'm not sure where Chad and Lori fall.  Neither had seemed to exhibit any symptoms of psychosis or profound mental illness leading up to all of the murders. 

Andrea Yates (who had a long history of severe mental illness and was suffering from post-partum psychosis) drowned her five children in a bathtub after her husband went to work.  Rusty, the husband, was a fundamentalist Christian involved with an itinerant fire and brimstone preacher who I personally think was a profoundly negative influence on Andrea and whose beliefs (bad mothers lead to bad children who will burn in hell) may have led Andrea to kill her children.  Andrea is still in a mental institution in Kerrville, TX after being judged not guilty by reason of insanity after spending a number of years in prison. 

A 2nd and recent murder was carried out by Matthew Coleman, a father who murdered his two kids recently.  QAnon's Deadly Price: Church-loving surf instructor Matthew Taylor Coleman fell into online conspiracy theories, then allegedly admitted to killing his kids to save the world. How did no one see it coming?

[EmmieJ]

Just now, Howl said:

Andrea is still in a mental institution in Kerrville, TX after being judged not guilty by reason of insanity after spending a number of years in prison. 

And somewhere recently, I read or heard that every time Andrea Yates comes up for possible release from the mental institution, she declines to even have a hearing.  What she did was horrifying but I feel sorry for her because (if I recall correctly), her doctors advised her at some point against having more children because of her severe post-partum depression, but because of her husband's toxic religious beliefs (and she believing it would be wrong to go against him and their church), she continued to have children.

And yes @Howl, after he murdered the children and his wife (although he claims that she stabbed herself - but I'm not buying that), he just couldn't manage to off himself.  He also killed the family dog.  I hope he gets life in prison without parole.

[Howl]

Andrea Yates was caught in a horrible bind.  Her mental illness exacerbated by toxic religious beliefs led her to murder her children.  She felt compelled to do what she did to save them from eternal torment, but she knew what she did was not right in the eyes of the larger world.

In Texas, not guilty by reason of insanity can only be invoked at trial if the person committing the crime did not know what they did was wrong.  

Edited April 14, 2022 by Howl

[Howl]

This and that going on with Lori.

EastIdahoNew.com has a dedicated link with all things Daybell, including Lori's new booking photo (she's back in regular jail) and info on how to watch her arraignment tomorrow (April 19) :   Daybell Investigation 

The charges

• First-degree murder in the death of Tylee Ryan
• First-degree murder in the death of JJ Vallow
• First-degree murder in the death of her current husband Chad Daybell’s first wife, Tammy Daybell
• Conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and grand theft by deception in the death of Tylee Ryan
• Conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and grand theft by deception in the death of JJ Vallow
• Conspiracy to commit first-degree murder in the death of Tammy Daybell
• Grand theft related to Social Security survivor benefits over $1,000 allocated for the care of minors Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow that were appropriated after the children were missing and ultimately found deceased.

[TuringMachine]

5 hours ago, Howl said:

This and that going on with Lori.

EastIdahoNew.com has a dedicated link with all things Daybell, including Lori's new booking photo (she's back in regular jail) and info on how to watch her arraignment tomorrow (April 19) :   Daybell Investigation 

The charges

• First-degree murder in the death of Tylee Ryan
• First-degree murder in the death of JJ Vallow
• First-degree murder in the death of her current husband Chad Daybell’s first wife, Tammy Daybell
• Conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and grand theft by deception in the death of Tylee Ryan
• Conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and grand theft by deception in the death of JJ Vallow
• Conspiracy to commit first-degree murder in the death of Tammy Daybell
• Grand theft related to Social Security survivor benefits over $1,000 allocated for the care of minors Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow that were appropriated after the children were missing and ultimately found deceased.

They only charged Chad with Tammy's murder not Lori, though both were charged with conspiracy. Unless that charge was added later and I missed it, I think East Idaho News made an error here.

[Howl]

40 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

They only charged Chad with Tammy's murder not Lori, though both were charged with conspiracy. Unless that charge was added later and I missed it, I think East Idaho News made an error here.

Charges will be noted at tomorrow's arraignment and Lori has to plead guilty or not guilty to each one. 

Lori's been in a mental health facility since last June.  I wonder if, now that she's restored to competency and IF there is more evidence, she is also being charged for 1st degree murder in Tammy's death.  We'll know by the end of tomorrow. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Howl

[Howl]

Lori has been arraigned; her lawyer asked the judge to give a summary of the charges without enumerating each statute she's being charged under. 

Video of the arraignment: Lori Vallow Daybell does not enter a plea during arraignment   (Lori's lawyer entered pleas of not guilty on her behalf)

I did not hear the judge say she was being charged with first degree murder in Tammy Daybell's death, however, EastIdahoNews.com again listed a first degree murder charge for Tammy Daybell in today's update, and KUTV in Salt Lake lists it as one of the charges as well. 

Another TV station (Channel 12 in Rexburgh) noted these charges: "She's charged with two counts of first-degree murder in the death of her children; one county of conspiracy to commit murder in the death of Tammy Daybell; one count of grand theft; and two other conspiracy counts."

Even if she is charged only with conspiracy to commit first degree murder, I thought I understood the judge to say that charge can carry death penalty or life without parole. 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Howl

[TuringMachine]

5 hours ago, Howl said:

Even if she is charged only with conspiracy to commit first degree murder, I thought I understood the judge to say that charge can carry death penalty or life without parole. 

 

That's my understanding too.

[Howl]

The only remaining mystery is how Tammy was murdered.  Maybe the autopsy didn't show anything conclusive and Chad's charge of murder was based on phone records/texts with Alex? 

 

[Howl]

Prosecutors have 60 days to file death penalty notice in Lori Vallow Daybell case as trial date is set

"Daybell did not waive her right to a speedy trial during her arraignment Tuesday afternoon, meaning the trial must legally occur within six months."

Lori has a new trial date beginning Oct 11 and ending in mid December (two months, good grief!) BUT her trial is currently conjoined with Chad's (set to begin in Jan. 2023) and the judge had declined earlier to sever the cases. 

"A grand jury in Arizona has also indicted Lori for conspiracy to commit murder in the death of her fourth husband, Charles Vallow. A Maricopa County Attorney’s Office spokeswoman told EastIdahoNews.com in June that Lori’s Idaho case will run its course before she faces the charge in Arizona."

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Howl

[EmmieJ]

I watch Hidden True Crime with Lauren Mathias and Lori Hollis (who is a former criminal defense atty).  On their Friday night podcast, Hollis said she believes that the judge will not sever the cases, so that Chad's trial date will be moved up so he is tried along side of Lori.  She still doubts that either one will flip on the other, at least not for now.

She also explained how Idaho criminal law works re the death penalty.   If the prosecution does not seek the death penalty,  and they are found guilty of murder in the 1st degree, they could get life in prison BUT would be eligible for parole in 10 years.  If the prosecution keeps the death penalty on the table and they are found guilty, then the same jury comes back to decide on the penalty, which could be either life in prison WITHOUT the possibility of parole or the death penalty. 

So the only path to actual life in prison is to keep 5he death penalty as an option. 

[Howl]

Interesting and explains why they assigned a death-penalty-qualified attorney to the case early on. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Howl

[Howl]

CNN: Idaho to seek death penalty for Lori Vallow, charged with murdering her 2 children

Quote

The state will seek the death penalty if Vallow is convicted of any of the counts of first-degree murder and/or any of the counts of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder

 

[Howl]

Lori Daybell’s mental health is ‘extremely complex and fragile,’ attorneys say in trial scheduling court filings

[Howl]

Lori Vallow Daybell and Chad Daybell will be tried together in January, judge rules

[Howl]

Legal maneuvering about this and that: 

July 7, 2022 Judge denies request of Chad Daybell’s attorney to remove two prosecutors from case

July 14, 2022 Defense asks grand jury to clarify charging language in Daybell indictment

July 19, 2022 Prosecutors in Daybell case request DNA testing on hair, shovel, pickax and other evidence

[Howl]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:35 AM, Howl said:

The only remaining mystery is how Tammy was murdered.  Maybe the autopsy didn't show anything conclusive and Chad's charge of murder was based on phone records/texts with Alex? 

I watched a 48 Hours episode last night with the 5 Daybell kids. All or mostly a rerun? They still 100% support Chad and do not believe he could have had any involvement with the death of JJ, Tylee or the death of their mom and that he was framed by Lori. 

One thing that did catch my attention.  Initial reports when Tammy passed were that Tammy had been in excellent health and was training to run in a 5K.  

However, in the interview, one of the kids said she'd been in declining health right before her death with fatigue and shortness of breath.  If Tammy, a healthy 49-year-old woman, had been in "declining health" just previous to her death, wouldn't she have seen a doctor?  The county coroner listed cardiac event and pulmonary edema as cause of death. What was that based on? 

A refresher on the bizarre incident posted on Facebook by Tammy Daybell 10 days before her death: 

“Something really weird just happened, and I want you to know so you can watch out,” Daybell wrote. “I had gotten home and parked in our front driveway. As I was getting stuff out of the back seat, a guy wearing a ski mask was suddenly standing by the back of my car with a paintball gun. He shot at me several times, although I don’t think it was loaded. I yelled for Chad and he ran off around the back of my house.”

It's now known that the guy in the ski mask was Alex.  He seemed to appear out of nowhere and "...he ran off around the back of my house." 

On last night's show, there are aerial views of the house and surrounding land. There are only a few trees, the rest is completely flat and open. There is the house, with one large outbuilding and maybe a shed. No place to hide a car.  Chad had to have brought Alex to the house to murder Tammy as she was unloading groceries.  So presumably, Alex had been inside the Daybell home prior to Tammy's death 10 days later. 

The Daybell kids (this is not new info) noted that they were told their mother died of "asphyxiation".  Was Alex in the house that night, smothered or choked Tammy Daybell to death, left and Chad staged the "oh my god my wife is DEAD" scene witnessed by his son? 

And this:  [Alex] Cox died of natural causes on December 11, 2019 -- one day before the exhumation of Tammy Daybell’s body. 

ETA: The kids (or at least Emma) accede that Chad was having an emotional affair with Lori before Tammy passed, but do not believe he had sex with Lori before that time, so technically was still faithful to his wife. 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Howl

[Cam]

I watched the 48 Hours show on this case last night, too. Chad’s kids are rather strange. The one daughter who did most of the talking was really odd. Emotionless. I’ve watched so many shows like this and usually when someone is speaking of their mother’s sudden death, they get choked up and tearful. This death was less than three years ago. This daughter simply rationalized the death away by claiming her mother had been short of breath and sleeping a lot. Like sudden death happens all the time when someone exhibits those symptoms. Why was there no wanting to understand further details of her death by requesting an autopsy? 
 

Chad’s kids seem to take their father’s second marriage TWO WEEKS after their mother died as no big deal! By any standards, even when a death had no mystery surrounding it, most widows and widowers do not jump into a second marriage that fast. What in god’s name was their hurry? Chad had five kids with his first wife and he basically shit on her memory.
 

Chad’s kids are hugely in denial. There is simply too much death and destruction surrounding Chad and Lori Vallow. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Cam