Dillards 81: Volunteering for God

[AtlanticTug]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

And education. Both make a huge difference.

Secular education is everything.

The main issue in thee entire Middle East is the lack of secular education (aside from Israel and even there, plenty of kids do not have access to it). It opens minds and opens doors and so long as you have kids memorizing scripture (hey there Blessa) instead of learning math and science and critical thinking, you'll have massive % of populations totally dumb, uninformed, bigoted and limited by their life experience. In the past this may have even been tolerable since one's reach in life, unless they were extraordinarily wealthy, was limited to their immediate surroundings, generally speaking. But in today's global society, it's a total nightmare that we are facing.

I do have hope that the Dillard boys will go to school. My guess is that as Derick graduates from law school, they'll add #3 to their clan and then either stop or have #4 in very short order so that they have 2 sets of kids who can be "friends." Jill will not be able to cope with having 2 rowdy boys around + a newborn, public school is free and Derick himself wouldn't have an issue with it. I predict we'll see Israel enrolled in gr. 1 in September 2021.

[socalrules]

So Jill has cut her hair, has a nose ring and wears jeans. Does she now believe all religions have value and you don’t have to be a super conservative Christian to make it to heaven or wherever one’s religion might teach? Does she believe Catholics  no longer need to be converted? Does she believe in gay rights, that gays aren’t going to hell and have the right to love anyone they darn well please? My guess would be her core beliefs have not changed. She has only changed aesthetically which is really no change at all. All the fundies we have followed are suddenly wearing pants, showing more collarbone and looking very non-fundy. Yet, their core beliefs haven’t changed, and they would still look down on each of us for not confirming to their view of how we should live our lives. Let me know when one has show growth other than how they look on the outside.

I know we say clothing or hair changes are baby steps but I would like to see real feelings for the right of others that does not involved being anti-abortion of saving the unborn or something they believe needs to Align to their belief system. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by socalrules

[FluffySnowball]

10 hours ago, raspberrymint said:

I'm just forever unimpressed with the Dillards because they remind me more of the family I fled than anyone else on here, with a smidge of extra fundie light to control the two kids in my immediate family, to control me more than my sister.  My relationship and now marriage to a trans person is why I cut off contact in calculated steps.  My parents don't know I'm married, won't know their grandchildren.  The Dillard boys would still have to go through much the same things my sister and I did, if they are anything like us.  They're not girls, presumably, so that might lessen it a little or make it much worse if they're not straight guys because there still is more of a stigma against gay guys than lesbians when we're talking about this type of Southern Baptist culture that the youth internalize.  And if a kid is more like my wife than me?  They get locked in basements, made homeless, left for dead or outright killed.  No different than if the parents were fundamentalists after all.

@raspberrymint yours is such an important assessment. THANK YOU! 

[candygirl200413]

@socalrules Thank you for this!! Whie she looks great with shorter hair and a lot younger, that doesn't mean anything in terms of her belief system. It's also interesting because I've seen in different places praising her hair style but some were still judging Jinger. In the end she's still under control of her "headship".

[apandaaries]

2 hours ago, AtlanticTug said:

Secular education is everything.

The main issue in thee entire Middle East is the lack of secular education (aside from Israel and even there, plenty of kids do not have access to it). It opens minds and opens doors and so long as you have kids memorizing scripture (hey there Blessa) instead of learning math and science and critical thinking, you'll have massive % of populations totally dumb, uninformed, bigoted and limited by their life experience. In the past this may have even been tolerable since one's reach in life, unless they were extraordinarily wealthy, was limited to their immediate surroundings, generally speaking. But in today's global society, it's a total nightmare that we are facing.

 

There’s a better photo montage of Afghanistan pre-religious rule, but I cannot currently locate it. Apologies. Please accept in its place this article which shows the demonstrable differences between embracing education and deploring progress. We can see pix of women in medical school, along with much more traditional pix. It’s so easy to slide back into the past. Remember that meme: “Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people.” 
It’s far too easy to slide back into what is familiar, based on false remembrances. https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/07/afghanistan-in-the-1950s-and-60s/100544/

[AliceInFundyland]

Today and only today I'm going to choose to be happy for the woman with no disclaimers.

She looks sincere, "oh my God, look at me I'm a fucking stunning woman and I know it."

As opposed to, "look at me I'm crazy, instaChristian mommy Jill Dillard Duggar."

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by AliceInFundyland
Removed the tinge of disclaimers

[Galbin]

I found it interesting how defensive Derick was when Jill said the hair could also be used by those with alopecia. He had to immediately jump in to state that he was only giving one example. It's at the 06:04 mark in the video.

[Natalie22]

11 hours ago, socalrules said:

So Jill has cut her hair, has a nose ring and wears jeans. Does she now believe all religions have value and you don’t have to be a super conservative Christian to make it to heaven or wherever one’s religion might teach? Does she believe Catholics  no longer need to be converted? Does she believe in gay rights, that gays aren’t going to hell and have the right to love anyone they darn well please? My guess would be her core beliefs have not changed. She has only changed aesthetically which is really no change at all. All the fundies we have followed are suddenly wearing pants, showing more collarbone and looking very non-fundy. Yet, their core beliefs haven’t changed, and they would still look down on each of us for not confirming to their view of how we should live our lives. Let me know when one has show growth other than how they look on the outside.

I know we say clothing or hair changes are baby steps but I would like to see real feelings for the right of others that does not involved being anti-abortion of saving the unborn or something they believe needs to Align to their belief system. 

I don't think she's changed those views, but I don't understand how that's any different from your average conservative or baptist Christian, especially in the United States.  What is the divide between fundamentalist and conservative Christian?  While it might not be the biggest change, it does show that she is not taking each verse of the bible literally.  She doesn't feel the need to read the passage about hair being a woman's crowning glory to mean she must never cut her hair. There are a number of fundamentalist groups that believe any change to your body, like a piercing, is breaking the sanctity of your body.  That's a major thing to change.  So yes, she has terrible views.  But a good chunk of the American population believe similar things.  Are they all fundamentalists?

[lumpentheologie]

@feministxtian, I’m a bit late to the party on this, but you look stunning! Glad you were able to do something nice for yourself. Wishing you all the best. ?

[breakfree]

2 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

I don't think she's changed those views, but I don't understand how that's any different from your average conservative or baptist Christian, especially in the United States.  What is the divide between fundamentalist and conservative Christian?  While it might not be the biggest change, it does show that she is not taking each verse of the bible literally.  She doesn't feel the need to read the passage about hair being a woman's crowning glory to mean she must never cut her hair. There are a number of fundamentalist groups that believe any change to your body, like a piercing, is breaking the sanctity of your body.  That's a major thing to change.  So yes, she has terrible views.  But a good chunk of the American population believe similar things.  Are they all fundamentalists?

I was going to say something like this. Conservative Christians are generally quieter about their views and more outwardly accepting  but share the majority of the beliefs that were mentioned. I actually think we have solid evidence that the Dillards, under Dwrecks direction, are at a minimum moving away from fundamentalism. While he and she obviously share many of the hateful and bigoted views of the rest of her family, like others I think it's a HUGE deal that they're limiting their family size, pro education, and seem at least sometimes to be attending a large mainstream church. Derek also seems broadly able to think about things and entertain other points of view, even if he returns to his hateful cocoon in the end. This is something.

There's no doubt that the beliefs of conservative Christians are harmful, even very harmful. But the damage done by fundamentalism is unique and, particularly for the children stuck in it, on a different scale.

Currently, of all the grandchildren, Jill's kids are the ones who seem to have a fighting chance. They are already being exposed to more mainstream thoughts and ideas (Halloween! A full time working grandmother! A church with people who believe normal if hateful things!) than Jill could ever have hoped for as a kid, and than their cousins seem able to hope for now.

This doesn't mean their beliefs aren't still awful and hurtful. They are, and even more because they have a large platform to spew them. But they are moving in a good direction and their kids are benefiting. I don't think this is nothing.

[Iamtheway]

So now my hair is longer than a Duggar’s. I think it’s definitly time for a trim!

[Syriana]

Jill provides much to snark about but, whatever her reasons for the hair cut, the new style suits her and she looks really good.

[raspberrymint]

On 12/22/2019 at 3:32 AM, breakfree said:

There's no doubt that the beliefs of conservative Christians are harmful, even very harmful. But the damage done by fundamentalism is unique and, particularly for the children stuck in it, on a different scale.

I had working grandparents and one sibling.  I lacked access to my identification paperwork.  I wasn't "allowed" to marry anyone of any gender.  This mess bleeds in with each other.  Losing your family for being with a man or a woman is losing your family.  Christian bigots are all dangerous.  It's not a better or worse victim scale.  

As for secular education, those boys won't stay in secular education if they aren't cis and straight.  They'll be yanked out and more isolated than their cousins immediately.

[Alisamer]

On December 22, 2019 at 4:32 AM, breakfree said:

This doesn't mean their beliefs aren't still awful and hurtful. They are, and even more because they have a large platform to spew them. But they are moving in a good direction and their kids are benefiting. I don't think this is nothing.

I agree. Steps are steps, and she has to start somewhere. If it starts with the easy outward stuff (pants, nose ring, haircut) that's not surprising, but succeeding at the small things make the bigger things easier for her down the road. Limiting family size is a huge thing in Duggar land, considering that popping out mass numbers of babies is what got their family notoriety and a comfortable lifestyle in the first place. Sending the kids to school would be another massive step. She's actively doing things her parents clearly don't agree with, and seems content (maybe even happy) about it. She's growing, and learning, and appears to be THINKING.

I'm willing and able to acknowledge that she is improving, while still realizing that many of her beliefs are still awful. I just think it's unreasonable to expect her to suddenly out of nowhere switch her beliefs a complete 180. All-or-nothing is a very fundamentalist way of viewing things, either direction. 

She's learning to walk, in a sense. Maybe someday she'll run, maybe not. There's still a lot to criticize, but I see no reason personally not to acknowledge what progress she is making, even if it's small. 

[Maggie Mae]

More than hairstyles, I think the fact that Jill is interacting with non-(Duggar) family members is a sign of breaking away and learning to think about who she is and what her religion teaches. She might never go public as an atheist or denounce her former beliefs, but she seems to be showing some signs of a brain. Unfortunately, she does live in an area where most of her beliefs aren't going to be challenged. She might give up the frumper/QF life, but I don't see her dropping mainstream southern Christianity. 

[raspberrymint]

4 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I'm willing and able to acknowledge that she is improving, while still realizing that many of her beliefs are still awful. I just think it's unreasonable to expect her to suddenly out of nowhere switch her beliefs a complete 180. All-or-nothing is a very fundamentalist way of viewing things, either direction. 

It isn't fundamentalist to say bigotry is bigotry, hate is hate.

LGBT people and our allies who were raised Southern Baptist / fundie and who escaped are not fundamentalists and did not reach their conclusions immediately or out of nowhere, even if it can seem that way.  Compassion and human decency aren't usually learned characteristics. 

Admittedly, I have an automatic disliking towards people like Jill (or like Jill has been portrayed as, I don't know the real Jill) who are easily influenced and act like they have to learn compassion.  I know I'm biased.  Some people rub me wrong.  Some people don't.  

Being a good person should still come naturally.

Edited December 23, 2019 by raspberrymint
Everything after the first sentence

[AussieKrissy]

I wonder how much flack Jill will cop for driving with the boys unrestrained. (Even just around the block) ffs Jill catch a clue don’t post that shit. You are just asking for trouble.... 

my daughter was unrestrained just once driving from check in to our camp site, yes she loved it, yes she felt like a big girl. Was it legal? No! Was she safe. Barring any high speed crashes in a small camp ground, yes. Did I take photos and post on social media, no! 
because I was smart enough to know about judgey mcjudeysons 

[BadMurphy]

Yeah she’s just asking for trouble with that one.  I’m sure she’s driving like 5 miles an hour but this will start a field day, people get dragged through the coals for having car seat straps that aren’t perfectly snug. 

[bella8050]

In Touch, Radar, People, where you at?
 

Jill proving she's still a Duggar at heart. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

On 12/21/2019 at 1:55 PM, socalrules said:

 Does she now believe all religions have value and you don’t have to be a super conservative Christian to make it to heaven or wherever one’s religion might teach? . 

Honestly, "all religions have value" seems like a pretty high bar of tolerance for Christians. It's in the bible that Jesus is the only way to salvation, no? (Just looked it up, it's John 16:4.) I know several centrist/centre-left Christians who do, at the end of the day, think Christianity is the only way to having a good afterlife. (Maybe they think other religions have moral value or something, I guess I never thought to ask.)

Most of my friends who grew up thinking "hey, all religions should have value!" have become agnostics or atheists.

Just consulted with my boyfriend who grew up Anglican, and he says he probably tuned it all out but he wasn't under the impression that people who weren't exposed to Christianity were necessarily damned. However, google tells us differently. So my guess is his local Anglican church mostly avoided the topic because it's awkward.

Your milage may vary.

[portraitpixie]

Can't believe there isn't more chatter about this

it is wildly unsafe! Why would she post this? 

I had a neighbor whose grandson died this way doing the exact same thing.  A dog ran out, she stopped quick, and he was ejected from the sunroof and died.  He was around 7-8 years old.  They are 2 &4!

 

[Glasgowghirl]

Jill some things should not be posted on Social media, it's dangerous and doing it is bad enough but to post it online can open herself up to a lot of abuse and maybe even get herself in trouble if someone else reports it. Parade floats are designed to safe for people on them, hanging out a sun roof is not safe. 

[artdecades]

Jesus Christ how stupid can a person be. 

[Maggie Mae]

They went to a parade? So I guess they are doing Santa now. Christmas movies, cookie decorating with non family members, parades! 

[Arkfundy]

I ventured over to Reddit yesterday and there’s a thread about this photo. Apparently people have contacted local authorities over it.

Over the years the family as a whole seems to have changed their views on Christmas. They used to just have the “Happy Birthday, Jesus” banner and exchange names and go thrift store shopping for the name they received. 
They all seem to have Christmas trees, including the “big house”...and something tells me that while names might be exchanged the value of the gift is much higher.