Epstein Barr

[BernRul]

Just now, Dreadcrumbs said:

Okay, fair enough.

They're all trash. It's not a contest.

I never said it was. But acting like Epstein was the Big Bad makes it easier for the people who paid him to slink back into the shadows. And then the cycle continues. 

[SilverBeach]

8 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

That would have saved us all a lot of time.

Maybe, maybe not. The wheels of justice grind very slowly. 

[BernRul]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

Look, I dislike Epstein as much as you. I don't know what his main thing was, just that he abused children which, no matter what else he did, makes him horrible in my book. I hope everyone who abused children supplied by himm does time. No need to argue, we are on the same side of this. And when the supplier is gone, a lot of people lose their connection. Hopefully, this will happen in Epstein's case, but whenever vast sums of money are involved, there is always a new supplier to take over. 

Since the people who supplied him where the president and former president, they certainly won't lose their connection. I'm not trying to aruge, I'm just hoping that we as a society don't lose sight of the big picture. One of the greatest evils in the world is how rich and powerful people can get away with crimes, and that's the cycle I want to break. Epstein's death will likely make that harder, so I'm not celebrating. 

[SilverBeach]

5 minutes ago, BernRul said:

I'm just hoping that we as a society don't lose sight of the big picture. One of the greatest evils in the world is how rich and powerful people can get away with crimes, and that's the cycle I want to break.

I'm 64 and black. I know first hand how the law in unevenly enforced. Sadly, I am not exepecting the rich and powerful in the US to ever be on the same level as everybody else. Donald Trump, enough said. He's the one I would like to see made an example of. 

1 hour ago, BernRul said:

But I don't trust the police to do the right thing

HAHAHA! Like I said, I'm 64 and black. We certainly agree on this. But we can hope, sometimes that's all we have.

Edited August 11, 2019 by SilverBeach

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

14 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

Personally though, I'm pissed off that he's dead. I wanted him to sing like a canary on the stand! That would have saved us all a lot of time.

I would have liked for every woman who was victimized by Epstein to have a chance to speak, like all the women and girls who got a chance to speak in the courtroom with Larry Nassar. For them to have a voice, while he had to stay silent.

[samurai_sarah]

Just now, SilverBeach said:

Maybe, maybe not. The wheels of justice grind very slowly. 

I don't deny that. But if he had sung, the leads to others might have been more direct and concrete. Might! Having said that, he might as well have lied...

Don't get me wrong. There isn't a wet eye in my house for his death, I just think he knew an awful lot that would have been easier to get out of him, instead of having to launch a huge investigation. My concern about his death is purely practical. I can honestly say that I hope that even the worms in his grave turn away in disgust.

[SilverBeach]

Just now, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I would have liked for every woman who was victimized by Epstein to have a chance to speak, like all the women and girls who got a chance to speak in the courtroom with Larry Nassar. For them to have a voice, while he had to stay silent.

They can still speak. Many of R. Kelly's victims have spoken, as have Bill Cosby's. Those who want to speak out  will do a service by keeping the issue of child sexual trafficking in the forefront of public consciousness. I don't think those women had any impact on Nassar, nor would they have had any on Epstein. These bastards lost their humanity a long time ago, if they ever had any. 

[samurai_sarah]

4 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I would have liked for every woman who was victimized by Epstein to have a chance to speak, like all the women and girls who got a chance to speak in the courtroom with Larry Nassar. For them to have a voice, while he had to stay silent.

I agree. I hadn't quite thought that through. You're right. If they wanted to, they should have got their chance.

[SilverBeach]

3 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

I just think he knew an awful lot that would have been easier to get out of him, instead of having to launch a huge investigation.

Maybe, maybe not. He's not the only one who knows these awful things, he didn't work in a vacuum. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by SilverBeach

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

5 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I don't think those women had any impact on Nassar, nor would they have had any on Epstein.

Probably not. But had an impact on me, and probably other people in general. I hope you're right that the survivors can still be heard.

[SilverBeach]

3 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Probably not. But had an impact on me, and probably other people in general. I hope you're right that the survivors can still be heard.

Someone mentioned them talking while Nassar just sat there. I was addressing that comment. I watched all six hours of the "Surviving R. Kelly"  Lifetime series because I wanted to hear those women, as hard as it was for me to watch.  I hope the impact was as great on others as it was on me. No one can stop the Epstein survivors from speaking out if they want to. 

I've let thoughts of reprehensible criminals like Epstein, Cosby, Kelly, Nassar, and my mother's husband (I will never call that man stepfather) take up too much space in my head. So, I bid you all farewell, have a lovely evening (it's six pm. here) or whatever it is wherever you are. I'm off to look at kitty pictures. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by SilverBeach

[hoipolloi]

Not surprisingly, the union representing the employees who were on duty at the time of Epstein's apparent suicide says that such an incident was inevitable, given the serious shortfall in staffing throughout Federal prisons:

Quote

 

Serene Gregg, president of the American Federation of Government Employees Local 3148, said the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan is functioning with less than 70 percent of the needed correctional officers, forcing many to work mandatory overtime and 60- or 70-hour workweeks.

She said one of the individuals assigned to watch Epstein’s unit did not normally work as a correctional officer but, like others in roles such as counselors and teachers, was able to do so. She declined to say which one or specify the person’s regular role.

“If it wasn’t Mr. Epstein, it would have been somebody else, because of the conditions at that institution,” Gregg said. “It wasn’t a matter of how it happened or it happening, but it was only a matter of time for it to happen. It was inevitable. Our staff is severely overworked.”

 

Being a prison guard is not a great job - I think we can all agree on that much. People who do this work should be well-trained and at least decently if not well compensated. 

I'd much prefer that government employees do that work rather than the various private companies who've taken over a lot of incarceration systems throughout the US. Short-staffing, of course, makes EVERYTHING much worse for both prison employees and prisoners, whether it's a public or private facility. [NB - I am obviously leaving aside the issues of who is incarcerated and why and whether or not prison is the right place for them. These are overwhelmingly important points but of secondary relevance to the Epstein case.]

The questions still remain as to who authorized taking Epstein off suicide watch and why. It wasn't the guards on duty.

Edited August 11, 2019 by hoipolloi
Clarity

[47of74]

Far as I’m fucking concerned he did not commit suicide. He was murdered. And I communicated that to my rep in Congress. And my expectation that she won’t allow Nancy to weasel out of that position either.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

10 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

Except we're not all victims here. Epstein's victims are the victims.

Except that if the current POTUS, a former POTUS, former governors, foreign prime ministers and other men in charge of public offices were Epstein's accomplices in the abuse of underage girls then yes we are all victims, not of the abuse itself, but of a system that keeps the rich and powerful in power in spite of having committed horrible crimes. 

When justice is not served in cases such as this, then we are all victims of this miscarriage of justice. You could have been one of those girls who won't have justice because her abusers are too powerful. You are the citizen who gets to have a rapist POTUS because this system keeps the powerful men in charge in spite of crimes.

I don't rejoice for his death. Not because I care about his miserable life, but because he had to spill the beans before dying. I want to know if POTUS is an underage girls rapist. I want to know if the allegedly involved foreigner prime minister was our prime minister. We all are owed the truth. We all are victims of a system that prevents us from getting it.

ETA I see the points were already eloquently made by others. Sorry, my bad, I should have read the whole thread before replying.

Edited August 12, 2019 by laPapessaGiovanna

[fraurosena]

A couple of thoughts:

9 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I am obviously leaving aside the issues of who is incarcerated and why and whether or not prison is the right place for them. These are overwhelmingly important points but of secondary relevance to the Epstein case.

1. I will go there. Because I don't think the first part -- who is incarcerated and why -- is of secondary relevance to the Epstein case. In this particular case, the who, namely the one person who could give up so many high and mighty people, is of primary import. The why, namely the rape of children and young and vulnerable women, is also extremely relevant in this case. High and mighty people were/are desperate to keep their horrific criminal activities out of the limelight. This being the case here, it's so obvious that Epstein needed exceptional protection of his person, and it's of the utmost concern that it was not provided for. Why it wasn't, is the primary question here.

2. Do I care that this sick fuck died? No, not on a personal level. He was an evil bastard and the world is a better place for being rid of his presence. But I sure as hell care that he died because it means certain high and mighty people got rid of a problem, and will probably get away with it. Those people are just as sick and evil as he was. I pray to Rufus that Epstein's death isn't used as an excuse (not a valid one, mind you) by Barr's DOJ to close the case.

3. I don't think he was murdered outright, in the sense that somebody else did the deed. He probably did hang himself. But the chances that he was coerced to do so are highly probable. (Agatha Christies 'And then there were none'* comes to mind). It's been reported that Epstein seemed desperate not to be in his cell as much as possible. He spent whole days in the 'lawyers room' with his attorney's. If true, was this really only because he hated being incarcerated, or was there some other reason? I'm not saying there was, but the question should be asked and answered.

4. There are pictures on social media, purportedly of Epstein's dead body in the hospital with NYPD officers next to it. People have been comparing that image of Epstein with other photo's of him, and pointing out they don't match. The theory being spread around is that Epstein isn't dead but has been spirited away and the body was a replacement. Although this might be a good movie plot twist, I don't think this actually happened (not ruling it out, just think it's not that probable). Epstein dead is a better outcome for the other rapists. Dead men don't speak, after all.

 

*For those of you unfamiliar with that novel:

Spoiler

One of the characters is coerced to suicide by hanging when they find a noose and a chair beneath it in their room.

 

[fraurosena]

The little doubt I had concerning foul play has had a big chunk bitten out of it. There's not much left now.

 

[Howl]

14 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I'd much prefer that government employees do that work rather than the various private companies who've taken over a lot of incarceration systems throughout the US.

This, exactly this.  Letting contracts to private, for-profit entities is a disaster, doesn't save money and results in poorer service because profits are going to the contractor and not employees.  

Private entities simply cannot stand seeing money that could be lining their pockets go to (usually dedicated) government employees. 

 

51 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

The little doubt I had concerning foul play has had a big chunk bitten out of it. There's not much left now.

Plus, Rod Rosentein has an op-ed in the NYT today decrying the media for amplifying conspiracy theories after the president retweeted a Clinton conspiracy theory relative to Epstein.  No, really, he did this. 

Whatever slack you may have given Rosenstein before, you can now put him firmly in the category of Trump ball washers.  It honestly brings up a question of who has kompromat on Rosenstein.   BT (before Trump) he was considered a dedicated government guy with impeccable ethics.  Now? Not so much. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Howl

[SilverBeach]

7 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I don't rejoice for his death. Not because I care about his miserable life, but because he had to spill the beans before dying.

Of course I too would have wanted him to give up whatever information he had that would lead to the prosecution of others before he committed "suicide".  Since that didn't happen, I'm just glad he's gone. No possibility of him ever hurting another person.

My ex-husband was a  US federal correctional officer for 25 years. No contractors in the federal prison system, they are all federal employees.

Maybe I'm just jaded, but the rich and powerful will always be able to buy their way out of trouble. I'm happy that Cosby, Weinstein, and now R. Kelly went down, that's progress. Politicians are even more dangerous than entertainers though. 

There needs to be a federal task force investigating child sexual trafficking for as long as it takes to pursue every lead in the Epstein case. Won't happen since the orange menace was one of his clients, at least not while he remains in office.

It's a scary, shitty world sometimes.

Edited August 12, 2019 by SilverBeach

[fraurosena]

More on the no video claims:

“Something doesn’t smell right — and it’s not his dead body”

Quote

There’s no surveillance video of the incident in which Jeffrey Epstein apparently hanged himself in a federal lockup in Lower Manhattan, law enforcement officials told The Post on Sunday.

Although there are cameras in the 9 South wing where the convicted pedophile was being held at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, they are trained on the areas outside the cells and not inside, according to sources familiar with the setup there.

Pols who attended Sunday’s annual Dominican Day Parade in Manhattan demanded answers to the many questions surrounding Epstein’s Saturday morning death, which is being investigated by the FBI and the Justice Department.

“Something doesn’t smell right — and it’s not his dead body,” Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams said.

Adams noted the July 23 incident in which the multimillionaire financier was found nearly unconscious in his cell with marks on his neck, as well as the blockbuster court papers that were released on Friday and contained the names of other men — including former Maine Sen. George Mitchell and ex-New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson — who allegedly slept with an Epstein teenage “sex slave.”

“Something is really troubling about that and I think it needs to be investigated extremely and very thoroughly to make sure there wasn’t any foul play,” Adams said.

New York Attorney General Letitia James, who said she’s toured the MCC, said she found it “very difficult to understand how something like this could have happened.”

“My understanding is that he should have been on suicide watch and the people on suicide watch are placed in a type of jumpsuit that wouldn’t allow them to hurt themselves or others,” she said.

Federal prison officials violated normal procedures by leaving Epstein, 66, alone without a cellmate and not checking on him every 30 minutes the night before he was found, according to a report Sunday.

In addition, both of the guards overseeing the unit were working overtime, with one on his fifth straight day of extra hours and the other forced to remain on duty, the New York Times said.

Bob Hood, a former chief of internal affairs for the Bureau of Prisons, told the Times that it was “beyond me” why Epstein was taken off a 24-hour suicide watch following the July 23 incident, especially given the steady stream of humiliating news reports about him.

“A man is dead. The Bureau of Prisons dropped the ball. Period,” Hood said.

 

[samurai_sarah]

xxx

31 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

(snip)

“A man is dead. The Bureau of Prisons dropped the ball. Period,” Hood said.

No, Mr Hood that is not the end of it. If, say, a hypothetical kid I babysit gets into a minor accident, I can't just say "I dropped the ball" and expect to walk away from it. Having a duty of care, I am guilty of gross negligence. No one is just going to let me walk away. So, no, no "period"!

[Dandruff]

I'm not surprised this happened early during a weekend.  Weekday talk shows won't get to it until today.  I suspect this is going to evolve into a drawn out, and eventually kind of boring, "investigation" into the pitfalls of short staffing and where cameras should face in prisons, while the real issues get swept.

[Howl]

The French are now looking for Epstein victims. Epstein was at his Paris apartment just before flying to the US, where he was arrested.  So, hoping there is a trove of information in the Paris apartment and that the French search it carefully. 

 

1 hour ago, Dandruff said:

I'm not surprised this happened early during a weekend.  Weekday talk shows won't get to it until today. 

Good point. Hadn't even considered the timing 'til now, @Dandruff. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Howl

[hoipolloi]

9 hours ago, fraurosena said:

Why it wasn't, is the primary question here.

Agreed -- as I've asked, WHO authorized taking him off suicide watch and WHY?

Although the WHO may turn out to be a Federal prisons administrator of some kind, it would be good to know just how (or even whether) this was properly authorized since there are regulations to be followed. 

Epstein is no loss to humanity. I feel entirely for his victims who now cannot have the vitally important confrontation with him in court such as Larry Nasser's victims were afforded. 

OTOH, I truly hope that the SDNY and other entities are following through on their promise to go after unnamed co-conspirators. I also hope that Epstein's death means there is more access to his various properties in and outside the US, such as the French investigation.

 

[fraurosena]

5 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Although the WHO may turn out to be a Federal prisons administrator of some kind

I agree, but that might just be the the scapegoat, the fall guy (or gal), who was coerced behind the scenes to do it. As you say, it's also imperative to dig up the why.

[fraurosena]

It seems the blame is being put on his attorneys, not a prison official. That still doesn't explain why prison protocols weren't followed, and why he was alone with minimal supervision.

There Were ‘Serious Irregularities’ at Federal Jail Where Jeffrey Epstein Died, Barr Says

Quote

Investigators probing the apparent suicide of Jeffrey Epstein have found “serious irregularities” at the federal jail in New York where the disgraced financier was being held on sex-trafficking charges, Attorney General William Barr said Monday.

Mr. Epstein, 66, died Saturday in the Manhattan detention facility. He had been put in the suicide-watch unit July 23 after he was found in his cell unconscious and with marks on his neck. But he was taken off suicide watch late last month at the request of his attorneys, people familiar with the matter said. In the hours before his death, jail officials apparently failed to follow several protocols, leaving him alone and with minimal supervision.

“I was appalled and frankly angry to learn of the [jail’s] failure to adequately secure this prisoner,” Mr. Barr said, speaking at a conference for police officers in New Orleans. “We are now learning of serious irregularities at this facility that are deeply concerning and demand a thorough investigation.”

After Mr. Epstein was removed from suicide watch, he was downgraded to “special observation status,” which mandated that guards check on him every 30 minutes and also required him to have a cellmate, a person familiar with his detention said. But in the hours before Mr. Epstein’s death, his cellmate was gone, possibly out for a court appearance or another appointment, and not quickly replaced as required. And Mr. Epstein wasn’t receiving the regular check, this person said.

“We will get to the bottom of what happened, and there will be accountability,” Mr. Barr said.

Mr. Barr also promised the Justice Department would continue its investigation into people who allegedly helped Mr. Epstein recruit young women for sex trafficking.

“Any co-conspirators should not rest easy,” Mr. Barr said. “The victims deserve justice, and they will get it.”

Just over a month ago, Mr. Epstein was arrested on two federal charges related to sex trafficking of minors, for which he faced a maximum sentence of 45 years in prison. He pleaded not guilty.

Federal prosecutors in Manhattan said over the weekend that they were continuing their sex-trafficking investigation, and a growing cache of evidence could lead to other targets.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Justice Department’s inspector general have also devoted additional resources and manpower to investigating his death. The New York City medical examiner performed an autopsy Sunday but said she needed more information before making a determination.

The days before Mr. Epstein’s death brought new allegations of sexual exploitation and financial improprieties. A longtime client accused him of stealing more than $46 million, and newly unsealed civil court filings painted a picture of depravity and abuse.

Prosecutors accused Mr. Epstein of orchestrating a yearslong sex-trafficking operation in which he and his associates lured dozens of girls—some as young as 14 years old—to his homes in New York and Florida. He recruited them to perform massages in the nude that steadily progressed to masturbation and sex acts, prosecutors said.