Questions about becoming Catholic

[SuperSluth]

14 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

A few pages back, you said you didn't want to be medicated.

I am confused.

Anyway, a great discussion all around on the Catholic Church and its policies - I always appreciate learning new stuff on FJ.

I think 99 Bottles said she was breast feeding, which can be scary to start meds.  I was in the same spot.  It was a tough pill to swallow (literally).

[dharmapunk]

On 6/16/2018 at 8:01 AM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

My Catholic country is Italy. Here I've heard open preaching of NFP only once by a Neocatecumenal couple at a conference, never by a priest. I think in the US many otherwise mainstream Catholics are pushed towards more socially conservative positions by the reality of the coexistence and comparison with more conservative churches.

I'm from Austria and I must say catholicism here seems to be a lot more relaxed and liberal than in the US. I went to a Catholic school for eight years and we had pretty good sex education. The message was something like "We would like you to wait until marriage, but we know most of you probably won't, so here is how not to get pregnant...." Like I mentioned 70% of the population are Catholics and women still only have an average of 1.8 children. That would be difficult to explain by NFP alone. It does not work THAT well.

[Coconut Flan]

From the US point of view, I have never heard a homily about birth control, NFP, or family planning at our local parish.  The average family size is around 2.  There are no super sized families in the parish and no one cares.  I'm in liberal Southern California though.

[Georgiana]

46 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

From the US point of view, I have never heard a homily about birth control, NFP, or family planning at our local parish.  The average family size is around 2.  There are no super sized families in the parish and no one cares.  I'm in liberal Southern California though.

Growing up, I heard my mother and other very Catholic ladies make critical comments about those few large Catholic families that were in the parish.  NOT because of their family size, but because they relied a lot upon Church support to make it work with all of those kids.  Catholic education isn't cheap, and many families who stopped having kids when they could no longer afford to support them the way they wanted were none too pleased at these families who got 8-9 kids' worth of free tuition (a total subsidy that probably ended up in 6 figures for all 12 grades).  There was a lot of discussion around whether those subsidies might not be better spent on merit based scholarships given to families with fewer children who didn't qualify for the tuition exemption because they (responsibly) chose not to continue having children.  I'd expect that this sentiment will continue to gain traction as the Catholic Church in America continues to move away from the glorification of large families.  

Catholics also place an emphasis on "Stewardship" which is the idea that God entrusts you with a sacred responsibility to discharge your responsibilities to the best of your ability with the gifts He gives you.  Continuing to have children when you are aware you are unable to support them or care for them properly is poor stewardship of your duties to your existing children and may be a serious sin.  It may be considered acceptable to quietly use other forms of contraception to avoid a position where you are unable to care for the children God has already entrusted you with, and many Catholics believe you have a moral obligation to do so.  

There are a lot of conflicting concepts in the Catholic church.  One parish may place more of an emphasis on NFP, while others may place more emphasis on proper stewardship of raising children, which opens the door to family planning.  But the two concepts do come in conflict with one another, as many Catholic doctrines do in the mess of real life, and it's generally down to the local level to determine which one takes precedence.   

[Ali]

1 hour ago, SuperSluth said:

I think 99 Bottles said she was breast feeding, which can be scary to start meds.  I was in the same spot.  It was a tough pill to swallow (literally).

I was put on Zoloft while breastfeeding. There are safe options out there. A doctor would not advise medication if it was not in the best interest for both mom and baby.

[nausicaa]

37 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

From the US point of view, I have never heard a homily about birth control, NFP, or family planning at our local parish.  The average family size is around 2.  There are no super sized families in the parish and no one cares.  I'm in liberal Southern California though.

Grew up Catholic in a purple part of Virginia and same here. Only one family at our church had more than three kids. It was understood everyone used some type of birth control and you just didn't ask about it. Never once heard a homily about family planning, not watching TV/movies, or modesty in dress. It wasn't unheard of for people to be Democrats, and I'd say it was a 70/30 Republican/Democrat split if I had to guess. 

It was expected that girls as well as boys should be taking school seriously and working towards going to college. Most kids went to public school or non-denominational private schools. A lot of the moms worked, and all of them wore pants regularly. Everyone had non-Catholic friends. 

I actually learned about Traditionalist Catholics here. I'd never met one growing up and didn't even know they existed. 

[EmmieJ]

I think the level of Catholocism  depends on where you live in the U.S., and of course, depends on the particular parish you belong to.  It's been very interesting hearing people share about how they grew up Catholic, or how they currently practice their religion, compared to how I was raised and how it was practiced in my home. 

My father's side of the family is what I'd call "very" Catholic, during his generation.  One of his uncles was a wealthy business man.  He told his four children that if they married a non-Catholic, he would cut them out of his will.  Three of the four got married, all to Catholics.  All three of those marriages ended in divorce.  So the younger generation took note (my cousins).  One of them married a Mormon - neither changed their religion.  One married a Catholic.  And a third married a Presbyterian.  All three of those marriages are still going strong. 

However, I find it interesting that out of the eight children my parents had, two of them turned to a more fundamental religion during their college years and have remained firmly entrenched in that more fundamentalist belief system.  One sibling has passed, but she married her college sweetheart that she met after they both converted.  They home schooled their children, but they also exposed them to outside activities and were strong believers in higher education.  All of their children graduated from college, and three out of the four are still unmarried, have careers and function well in the non-secular world. 

The other sibling is the one closest to me in age and also emotionally.  Yet we are so very different in our religious and political beliefs.  She voted for Bush (twice!) because he was a "good Christian" and she also voted for Trump (reluctantly because he was the Republican nominee).  I think she is regretting her vote now and would not vote for him again, but she'll still vote Republican otherwise. 

I guess my meandering point was that there seems to be a pendulum that swings back and forth.  For my grandparents generation, it very much mattered what religion you identified with and most people married someone of the same religion.  Then my parents broke that barrier and married outside of their religion and it was a little bit shocking for the time.  My parents were more open to the changing times and accepted things that would have made some more strict parents possibly disown their child:  one child married a person of color; another child lived with a partner without the sanctity of marriage; another child had a child out of wedlock (that would be me!); and so on.  And with each event, my parents rolled with it and chose love over judgment.  They even gracefully accepted that two of their offspring went fundamentalist on them.  And now with my own son - I had to come to terms with him being an atheist at a very early age - being quite certain there was no god, no heaven or hell, just this life and what we make of it.  And perhaps in part because of my son expressing his thoughts so logically and my own cumulative life experiences, now I'm agnostic.  I'd like there to be some sort of afterlife, but logically I doubt it.

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

Reading this topic kind of reinforces my non religious thinking. My first thought was “who the hell gave the priest the authority to tell you what you can and can’t do at church?” Then I realize “Oh, the god that you are worshipping did. But who cares? Do what you want.” I guess that’s really not the point of religion, is it? 

ETA: In high school I attended an Episcopal service once. I refused communion because I didn’t want to drink out of the same cup as everyone else but I’m certain the priest would have allowed it if I wanted. I had no previous relationship with the episcopal church before but I would have still been allowed communion. Is that typical of the Episcopal church? Just wondering because different church’s approach towards communion is interesting.

The Episcopal Church has been very welcoming in my personal experience. The Pastor at the two Churches we’ve visited were both fine with baptized Christians of any denomination taking Communion during services. They were also more than happy to offer a blessing on those who came to the altar, but indicated they didn’t want to receive Communion (they make it a point to tell people to cross their arms over their chest if they’d like a blessing, but not Communion.)

The Methodist Church my Uncle’s family attends was also very welcoming. But I think if Husband and I ever started attending Church regularly it would be an Episcopal Church. It resembles the Roman Catholic Church in many ways, but we both feel they’re more welcoming and accepting as well* (especially of the LGBTQ+ community, of which my brother is a member.) 

*I’m speaking here of Church hierarchy and not the individual parishioners. I know many Catholics who are wonderfully accepting and welcoming individuals. Husband and I personally haven’t felt that from the Catholic Church hierarchy, though experiences will absolutely vary. 

[Carm_88]

I've mentioned before that I grew up in a very Catholic family. My Dad is 9th out of 10, the last surviving child, and my Mom is 11th out of 14. Everyone I grew up with, was Catholic, except my cousin's Mom. She's United, but my cousins were raised Catholic. We went to a Catholic school, we practiced our sacraments in school, every day started with the Our Father, every exam period started with Hail Mary (Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us), and so on. 

Were there big families? One. That was about it. No one talked about it, it was no one's business. As long as we were getting all the sacraments that the church required of us, no one cared what else was happening. 

[LaLele]

Another smells and bells type church is Missouri Synod Lutheran.   Lotsa Latin thrown around.   

As a Methodist divorcee who does not have warm fuzzy feeling towards my ex, if anyone asked me to annul the marriage I would flatly refuse.  I entered my marriage with good faith and intent and it failed, but it happened.  It would be beyond a big deal for me to say it never was.     

Also, even if the husband has no emotional tie to not wanting an annulment, since Methodists give communion to anyone who walks in off the street it is probably hard for him to see the monetary and time value involved in annulment.   

[Beermeet]

10 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

Reading this topic kind of reinforces my non religious thinking. My first thought was “who the hell gave the priest the authority to tell you what you can and can’t do at church?” Then I realize “Oh, the god that you are worshipping did. But who cares? Do what you want.” I guess that’s really not the point of religion, is it? 

ETA: In high school I attended an Episcopal service once. I refused communion because I didn’t want to drink out of the same cup as everyone else but I’m certain the priest would have allowed it if I wanted. I had no previous relationship with the episcopal church before but I would have still been allowed communion. Is that typical of the Episcopal church? Just wondering because different church’s approach towards communion is interesting.

I like the Episcopalian church, especially their views on holy communion.   At my grandfather-inlaws funeral service at his Episcopalian church, the priest invited Anyone who has been baptised to come receive the body and blood of Christ. It was the first time my husband and I took it together.  We've been to Catholic services together and he could not partake like that.  My husband,  bless his heart, would never think of mocking a sacrement like that and he was way less traditionally raised than I was.  The fact that the Episcopal church valued us all and deemed us worthy, as long as a baptism was done in any Christian church, meant a lot to me as a Catholic.  Catholics can be separatist like that and I never liked that aspect.  It made me happy that my husband could partake in good standing.  Unlike *my* church where he was made to feel less than.  I also like that the priests can marry.  I've been to 3 services at that church and enjoyed them, despite the fact it was for funerals.  Because, just about all were accepted and included.  The whole mass and set up was pretty much like the Catholic mass.  Less pomp and circumstance.   I do like that part!  #witchystuff

[kpmom]

15 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I like the Episcopalian church, especially their views on holy communion.   At my grandfather-inlaws funeral service at his Episcopalian church, the priest invited Anyone who has been baptised to come receive the body and blood of Christ. It was the first time my husband and I took it together.  We've been to Catholic services together and he could not partake like that.  My husband,  bless his heart, would never think of mocking a sacrement like that and he was way less traditionally raised than I was.  The fact that the Episcopal church valued us all and deemed us worthy, as long as a baptism was done in any Christian church, meant a lot to me as a Catholic.  Catholics can be separatist like that and I never liked that aspect.  It made me happy that my husband could partake in good standing.  Unlike *my* church where he was made to feel less than.  I also like that the priests can marry.  I've been to 3 services at that church and enjoyed them, despite the fact it was for funerals.  Because, just about all were accepted and included.  The whole mass and set up was pretty much like the Catholic mass.  Less pomp and circumstance.   I do like that part!  #witchystuff

I couldn't agree more, Beermeet.  The EC is so inclusive, I love it and am proud to be a member.

The original poster said she wasn't interested in the Episcopal Church, and if that's her decision, that's fine, but it's too bad too.  She wouldn't have all these roadblocks.  I'm not sure there's a way past them in the RCC.

[anniebgood]

I am a cradle Lutheran, but my mom was raised conservative EUB and didn't get baptized until after my brother was born and she was attending my dad's Lutheran church. I remember when my much older 1/2 brother who was married to a Catholic told my dad he wanted to convert, my dad and my mom had a long conversation about it. She told him he should not shun him, but be glad that he wanted to attend church with his family. He turned out to be a much better Catholic than his wife. 
If i were to leave the ELCA I'd go to an Episcopal church. Right now I'm having a personal crisis of faith with regards to my moms death in February. I feel like I'm going to have a full blown panic attack walking through the church I've been a member of since we moved to CA in 1967. 

[Beermeet]

13 minutes ago, anniebgood said:

I am a cradle Lutheran, but my mom was raised conservative EUB and didn't get baptized until after my brother was born and she was attending my dad's Lutheran church. I remember when my much older 1/2 brother who was married to a Catholic told my dad he wanted to convert, my dad and my mom had a long conversation about it. She told him he should not shun him, but be glad that he wanted to attend church with his family. He turned out to be a much better Catholic than his wife. 
If i were to leave the ELCA I'd go to an Episcopal church. Right now I'm having a personal crisis of faith with regards to my moms death in February. I feel like I'm going to have a full blown panic attack walking through the church I've been a member of since we moved to CA in 1967. 

I'm so sorry to hear about your mom.  Yeah, I know what you mean about it feeling weird and panicky going to a place of former comfort after a super close loved one has passed on.  Big bear hug to you from me.  It will be emotional but you will probably feel better than what's in your head.

[anniebgood]

Just now, Beermeet said:

I'm so sorry to hear about your mom.  Yeah, I know what you mean about it feeling weird and panicky going to a place of former comfort after a super close lived one has passed on.  Big bear hug to you from me.  It will be emotional but you will probably feel better than what's in your head.

Thanks, I was in a deep deep depression over her passing and it made my agoraphobia really bad. I'm finally coming around, but Sunday mornings are hard. Having an atheist husband who makes nasty remarks about my and other's religions hasn't helped either. I asked him if he knew how bad it hurts and he says he doesn't care because religion is almost as evil as Trump. 

[Beermeet]

2 minutes ago, anniebgood said:

Thanks, I was in a deep deep depression over her passing and it made my agoraphobia really bad. I'm finally coming around, but Sunday mornings are hard. Having an atheist husband who makes nasty remarks about my and other's religions hasn't helped either. I asked him if he knew how bad it hurts and he says he doesn't care because religion is almost as evil as Trump. 

I'm sorry. It's a lot to handle.  My paternal nana was more like a mother to me.  When I lost her, I got lost too, for a while.  My dad didn't seem to give a shit that my old grandpa and I ( you know, just his father, her husband, his daughter and the one who was there for her throught all the cancer stuff, no big deal * eye roll*)  did not want her creamated or at least a wake.  Nope, he wanted no money spent so he could take it.  But, you know what?  It helped me to be true to myself, even if I can't change things,  I will do my thing and be a good person who would never do that to another.  It's all we have at the end of the day.  I will do right.  I know our situations are different but, similar, I think.  I hope your husband can chill and not minimize how you feel.  Organized religion is one thing ( and, I can agree on the 45 comparison to some degree) and personal faith and tradition is quite another.  One more bear hug!

[kpmom]

23 minutes ago, anniebgood said:

Thanks, I was in a deep deep depression over her passing and it made my agoraphobia really bad. I'm finally coming around, but Sunday mornings are hard. Having an atheist husband who makes nasty remarks about my and other's religions hasn't helped either. I asked him if he knew how bad it hurts and he says he doesn't care because religion is almost as evil as Trump. 

Sending love to you, anniebgood, and very sorry your husband is reacting the way he is.  I hope he sees how unhelpful he's being, regardless of his personal views on religion.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

8 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

From the US point of view, I have never heard a homily about birth control, NFP, or family planning at our local parish.  The average family size is around 2.  There are no super sized families in the parish and no one cares.  I'm in liberal Southern California though.

That's how it was when I was going to mass as a kid in the Midwest, but in recent years when I go with family I hear more of the culture-war stuff. I think a lot of parishes have taken a sharp rightward turn in the past decade or so. I know a number of relatives who have left the church over it, including an uncle who was the last person on earth I would have expected that from-- we all used to roll our eyes at him because he was one of those more-catholic-than-the-pope types who goes to mass every single day. He resigned his membership after his priest declared that Democratic voters shouldn't take communion!

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, anniebgood said:

Right now I'm having a personal crisis of faith with regards to my moms death in February.

Sending good thoughts to you. My mother died in February also.

[Beermeet]

11 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I don't know about the Episcopal church, but in a Baptist church usually we pass around the tiny cups of grape juice and little bits of cracker (ours are homemade like shortbread, very yummy), and anyone can take one. You're only supposed to take one if you are baptized, but no one's going to go grill a visitor about that. Sometimes at special services we are sitting at tables and one person will pour and we will all serve each other, but usually you know the person you are sitting with so it's not been an issue that I'm aware of. We also only do communion about once a quarter, and on special days like Good Friday (sitting at tables) and Christmas Eve (where the church staff and their families pass the communion stuff).

I like that.  It conveys the belief that the Holy Spirit is in fact in us and we are equal if at least baptised Christian.   It's the intent.  Like you are trusted with it as a group of people getting their praise and worship on.  The idea of a higher power goes so far back in human history, ancient history.  It's always there.  I never thought it was about the mindset of "this way is the only true and right way".  That's about power.  

[EmainMacha]

8 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

He resigned his membership after his priest declared that Democratic voters shouldn't take communion!

What the hell?! I've been reading all these accounts and wow. There are plenty of churches in UK and Ireland where the priest is a dick of course. But denying communion based on voting preferences? That is beyond the pale.

[PennySycamore]

@EmainMacha and @NachosFlandersStyle,  the priest at one of the big Catholic churches here in Greenville SC told the congregation that either when Kerry or Obama was running for President.  He also said something stupid about 
"where were the poor people in Greenville?"  I thought "Just look out the door to the west, you fucking asshole!"  The rescue mission is literally down the block and the neighborhood around St Mary's is one of the poorest in the city.   I canvassed for Obama in that neighborhood and saw the poverty. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I hoped that the OP would tell us what aspects of Catholicism are so appealing for her. Maybe she will.

Meanwhile @Georgiana 's post about St Francis song makes me think. I don't particularly like that song, too many guilt trips of my adolescence are connected to it, but her feelings echoed some of my own. I grew up Catholic in a very Catholic family and community and while now I consider myself agnostic (with an atheistic streak if that makes sense), I wouldn't get rid of the Catholic part of my identity and of my culture.

I often write here that the intrusions of the RCC in my country's political and cultural debates make me sometimes uncomfortable, at other times outright ragey. But I rarely mention that I am grateful to some aspects of Catholicism for many good aspects that characterise my country's cultural environment. The influence of Catholicism in these cases isn't direct but mediated by a cultural debate that has been essentially lay for centuries.

I think the best description of my feelings and my thoughts are a couple of Fabrizio De André's songs. The first one is The Fisherman and the second one Tito's Will. I copied here the English translation, in the linked site you can find the original lyrics 

Spoiler

The Fishernman

In the shadows of the last sunlight
a fisherman dozed off,
and he had a deeply furrowed brow
almost like a kind of smile.

To the beach came an assassin,
two eyes as big as a child’s,
two eyes enormous with fear -
they were mirrors of some adventure.

He begged the old man gimme some bread
I’ve little time and too much hunger, and
demanded of the old man gimme some wine
I’m thirsty, and I’m an assassin.

The old man opened his eyes a peak to the day
and didn’t even look around,
but he poured the wine and broke some bread
for whoever said he was thirsty and hungry.

There was a warmth in the moment, then
the assassin turned anew towards the wind
and turned again towards the sun,
behind him was a fisherman.

Yes, behind him was a fisherman,
and the memory is already painful,
is already the regret of an April that
played out in the shadows of some back yard.

Two gendarmes came on horseback,
they came armed in their saddles,
they asked the old man if anywhere nearby
there might have passed an assassin.

But in the shadows of the last sunlight
a fisherman dozed off,
and he had a deeply furrowed brow
almost like a kind of smile.
And he had a deeply furrowed brow
almost like a kind of smile. 

 Tito, according to the apocrypha, is the good thief that is crucified with Jesus. The song is the soliloquy of the dying Tito. I love it, I love the meaning, I love the poetry.

Spoiler

Tito's Will

Tito:
“You shall have no other gods before me.
It often made me think:
different peoples hailing from the East
said that essentially it’s all the same.

They believed in another one, different from you,
and they've done me no harm.
They believed in another one, different from you,
and they've done me no harm.

Don’t take the name of God,
don’t take it in vain.
With a knife planted in my hip
I shouted my pain and his name:

but perhaps he was tired, perhaps too busy,
and he didn’t hear my sorrow.
But maybe he was tired, maybe too far away,
indeed I did take it in vain.

Honor the father, honor the mother,
and honor also their rod,
kiss the hand that broke your nose
because you asked for a morsel:

when my father’s heart stopped
I felt no sorrow.
When my father’s heart stopped
I felt no sorrow.

Remember the Sabbath, keep it holy.
Easy for us thieves
to enter the temples that regurgitate psalms
of slaves and of their masters,

without ending up tied to the altars,
slaughtered like animals.
Without end, tied to the altars,
slaughtered like animals.

The fifth says you shall not steal,
and maybe I obeyed it,
emptying in silence the already bulging pockets
of those who had stolen:

But I, lawless, stole in my name;
those others, in the name of God.
But I, lawless, stole in my name;
those others, in the name of God.

Don’t commit acts that aren't pure,
that is, don’t scatter your semen.
Impregnate a woman every time you love her
and thus you will be a man of faith:

then the desire vanishes and the child remains,
and hunger kills so many of them.
I, perhaps, confused pleasure and love:
but I didn’t create sorrow.

The seventh says not to kill
if you want to be worthy of Heaven.
Look at it today, this law of God,
three times nailed to the wood:

look at the end of that Nazarethan,
and a thief dies no less.
Look at the end of that Nazarethan,
and a thief dies no less.

Don’t bear false witness
and help them to kill a man.
They know it by heart, the divine right,
and always forget the pardon:

I perjured on God and on my honor,
and no, I don’t feel any sorrow.
I perjured on God and on my honor,
and no, I don’t feel any sorrow.

Don’t covet the possessions of others
and don’t covet the wife.
Tell it to those, ask it of the few,
who have a woman and something:

in the beds of others, already warm with love,
I felt no sorrow.
Yesterday's envy isn't done yet:
this evening I’ll envy your life.

But now that evening comes and darkness
removes the sorrow from my eyes
and the sun slips down beyond the dunes
to violate other nights:

I, in seeing this man who is dying,
Mother, I feel sorrow.
In the piety that doesn’t yield to resentment,
Mother, I learned love.” 

De André concept of Jesus is summed up in this other song: His Name Was Jesus

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

Coming from far, far away
to convert beasts and humans,
you can’t say it was for naught,
because he took the earth by its hand.
Dressed in sand and in white,
some said he was a saint,
for others he had less virtue -
he went by the name of Jesus.

I don’t intend to sing of the glory
nor to invoke the grace and forgiveness
of one who I think was not other than a man,
like God passed into history.
Yet inhuman, it is still forever, the love
of one whose last gasps are without ill will,
pardoning with his final voice
those who kill him in the arms of a cross.

And for those who had hated him,
in Gethsemane he wept farewell,
as for those who adored him as a God
and who said to him, "Praise be to you always,"
and for whoever brought to him as a gift at the end
a tear or a braid of thorns,
accepting at the final farewell
the prayer, the insult and the sputum.

And he died like everyone dies,
like everyone, changing color.
You can’t say it did much good,
because the evil from the land wasn't removed.
He had perhaps a few too many virtues,
he had a face and a name: Jesus.
Of Maria they say he was the son,
on the cross he turned white as a lily.

I think that he underlined many of the critics FJers often move to a certain kind of Christianity.

[upkacrane]

On 6/23/2018 at 8:12 PM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I hoped that the OP would tell us what aspects of Catholicism are so appealing for her. Maybe she will.

Meanwhile @Georgiana 's post about St Francis song makes me think. I don't particularly like that song, too many guilt trips of my adolescence are connected to it, but her feelings echoed some of my own. I grew up Catholic in a very Catholic family and community and while now I consider myself agnostic (with an atheistic streak if that makes sense), I wouldn't get rid of the Catholic part of my identity and of my culture.

I often write here that the intrusions of the RCC in my country's political and cultural debates make me sometimes uncomfortable, at other times outright ragey. But I rarely mention that I am grateful to some aspects of Catholicism for many good aspects that characterise my country's cultural environment. The influence of Catholicism in these cases isn't direct but mediated by a cultural debate that has been essentially lay for centuries.

I think the best description of my feelings and my thoughts are a couple of Fabrizio De André's songs. The first one is The Fisherman and the second one Tito's Will. I copied here the English translation, in the linked site you can find the original lyrics 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Fishernman

In the shadows of the last sunlight
a fisherman dozed off,
and he had a deeply furrowed brow
almost like a kind of smile.

To the beach came an assassin,
two eyes as big as a child’s,
two eyes enormous with fear -
they were mirrors of some adventure.

He begged the old man gimme some bread
I’ve little time and too much hunger, and
demanded of the old man gimme some wine
I’m thirsty, and I’m an assassin.

The old man opened his eyes a peak to the day
and didn’t even look around,
but he poured the wine and broke some bread
for whoever said he was thirsty and hungry.

There was a warmth in the moment, then
the assassin turned anew towards the wind
and turned again towards the sun,
behind him was a fisherman.

Yes, behind him was a fisherman,
and the memory is already painful,
is already the regret of an April that
played out in the shadows of some back yard.

Two gendarmes came on horseback,
they came armed in their saddles,
they asked the old man if anywhere nearby
there might have passed an assassin.

But in the shadows of the last sunlight
a fisherman dozed off,
and he had a deeply furrowed brow
almost like a kind of smile.
And he had a deeply furrowed brow
almost like a kind of smile. 

 Tito, according to the apocrypha, is the good thief that is crucified with Jesus. The song is the soliloquy of the dying Tito. I love it, I love the meaning, I love the poetry.

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Tito's Will

Tito:
“You shall have no other gods before me.
It often made me think:
different peoples hailing from the East
said that essentially it’s all the same.

They believed in another one, different from you,
and they've done me no harm.
They believed in another one, different from you,
and they've done me no harm.

Don’t take the name of God,
don’t take it in vain.
With a knife planted in my hip
I shouted my pain and his name:

but perhaps he was tired, perhaps too busy,
and he didn’t hear my sorrow.
But maybe he was tired, maybe too far away,
indeed I did take it in vain.

Honor the father, honor the mother,
and honor also their rod,
kiss the hand that broke your nose
because you asked for a morsel:

when my father’s heart stopped
I felt no sorrow.
When my father’s heart stopped
I felt no sorrow.

Remember the Sabbath, keep it holy.
Easy for us thieves
to enter the temples that regurgitate psalms
of slaves and of their masters,

without ending up tied to the altars,
slaughtered like animals.
Without end, tied to the altars,
slaughtered like animals.

The fifth says you shall not steal,
and maybe I obeyed it,
emptying in silence the already bulging pockets
of those who had stolen:

But I, lawless, stole in my name;
those others, in the name of God.
But I, lawless, stole in my name;
those others, in the name of God.

Don’t commit acts that aren't pure,
that is, don’t scatter your semen.
Impregnate a woman every time you love her
and thus you will be a man of faith:

then the desire vanishes and the child remains,
and hunger kills so many of them.
I, perhaps, confused pleasure and love:
but I didn’t create sorrow.

The seventh says not to kill
if you want to be worthy of Heaven.
Look at it today, this law of God,
three times nailed to the wood:

look at the end of that Nazarethan,
and a thief dies no less.
Look at the end of that Nazarethan,
and a thief dies no less.

Don’t bear false witness
and help them to kill a man.
They know it by heart, the divine right,
and always forget the pardon:

I perjured on God and on my honor,
and no, I don’t feel any sorrow.
I perjured on God and on my honor,
and no, I don’t feel any sorrow.

Don’t covet the possessions of others
and don’t covet the wife.
Tell it to those, ask it of the few,
who have a woman and something:

in the beds of others, already warm with love,
I felt no sorrow.
Yesterday's envy isn't done yet:
this evening I’ll envy your life.

But now that evening comes and darkness
removes the sorrow from my eyes
and the sun slips down beyond the dunes
to violate other nights:

I, in seeing this man who is dying,
Mother, I feel sorrow.
In the piety that doesn’t yield to resentment,
Mother, I learned love.” 

De André concept of Jesus is summed up in this other song: His Name Was Jesus

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Coming from far, far away
to convert beasts and humans,
you can’t say it was for naught,
because he took the earth by its hand.
Dressed in sand and in white,
some said he was a saint,
for others he had less virtue -
he went by the name of Jesus.

I don’t intend to sing of the glory
nor to invoke the grace and forgiveness
of one who I think was not other than a man,
like God passed into history.
Yet inhuman, it is still forever, the love
of one whose last gasps are without ill will,
pardoning with his final voice
those who kill him in the arms of a cross.

And for those who had hated him,
in Gethsemane he wept farewell,
as for those who adored him as a God
and who said to him, "Praise be to you always,"
and for whoever brought to him as a gift at the end
a tear or a braid of thorns,
accepting at the final farewell
the prayer, the insult and the sputum.

And he died like everyone dies,
like everyone, changing color.
You can’t say it did much good,
because the evil from the land wasn't removed.
He had perhaps a few too many virtues,
he had a face and a name: Jesus.
Of Maria they say he was the son,
on the cross he turned white as a lily.

I think that he underlined many of the critics FJers often move to a certain kind of Christianity.

LOVE LOVE LOVE Fabrizio de André! And these two songs are among my absolute favourites for the exact same reasons you mention. Off to listen to the full album "La Buona Novella"

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On 6/18/2018 at 12:48 PM, EmmieJ said:

I think the level of Catholocism  depends on where you live in the U.S., and of course, depends on the particular parish you belong to.  It's been very interesting hearing people share about how they grew up Catholic, or how they currently practice their religion, compared to how I was raised and how it was practiced in my home. 

My father's side of the family is what I'd call "very" Catholic, during his generation.  One of his uncles was a wealthy business man.  He told his four children that if they married a non-Catholic, he would cut them out of his will.  Three of the four got married, all to Catholics.  All three of those marriages ended in divorce.  So the younger generation took note (my cousins).  One of them married a Mormon - neither changed their religion.  One married a Catholic.  And a third married a Presbyterian.  All three of those marriages are still going strong.

My maternal Grandma's first marriage was to a Catholic.  That lasted just a couple years before falling apart.  She said she wouldn't move out to California and the guy then left her and her young daughter to run out there.  She met Grandpa a few years later and that marriage lasted over 37 years until his death in 1980.  So I always figured that my mom had no room to complain if I married someone who was a non Catholic. 

On 6/18/2018 at 8:16 PM, NachosFlandersStyle said:

That's how it was when I was going to mass as a kid in the Midwest, but in recent years when I go with family I hear more of the culture-war stuff. I think a lot of parishes have taken a sharp rightward turn in the past decade or so. I know a number of relatives who have left the church over it, including an uncle who was the last person on earth I would have expected that from-- we all used to roll our eyes at him because he was one of those more-catholic-than-the-pope types who goes to mass every single day. He resigned his membership after his priest declared that Democratic voters shouldn't take communion!

Yeah I was probably the last person on Earth some people in my family expected to leave the church.  I wasn't more Catholic than the Pope back in my Catholic days but I was fairly well in to it back then.  Serving Mass, being on the parish council, etc etc.  Our parish wasn't a hard reich wing church and I would not have stayed in the church as long as I did if they had.  I used to say that if it hadn't been for them the church and I would have been splitsville a long time ago.  I wish I hadn't stayed as long as I did because of the emotional baggage the church caused me.  It was so goddamn liberating to leave the Roman church and not have to clamp my jaw shut any time a reich to life type spouted off.  I've been a member of the local Episcopal Church for over six years now and it's one of the best things I've done.

 

Oh, any my default answer now to anyone asking about joining the Roman church.....don't.