Christian Forum Thread About Spanking Kids

[Katiebug]

I think one of the problems with being an attachment parent is that there is little info on what to do about problem behaviors. I'm not a fan of spanking and I don't even really like time out (except for the go-away-until-you-can-be-more-pleasant type). There's a lot on how to raise babies, but I always feel like I am winging it with older kids. I have AP friends who let their older kids run amok and I am not quite that crunchy.

This is where we struggle with the gentle discipline part of AP. Gentle discipline does not mean NO discipline and we know AP parents with older children who basically let their kids run amok. Our pediatricians give handouts on behavior, discipline, etc. at each well baby and well child visit. They are anti-corporal punishment but emphasize that discipline is about setting limits and encouraging correct behaviors, and that you really can't do much more than redirect and provide a safe environment until your child is a toddler anyways. The handouts that we got at Little Bug's 12 month appointment have given us some really good ideas for how to discipline in an age-appropriate way without spanking.

I hesitate sometimes to identify as an attachment parent because a lot of people assume that means we don't discipline at all. It's OK though - because I'm a WOHM we're not welcome in the local AP group. Sad, but true. We approached them and were told that if I didn't care enough about my child to make any sacrifice to be at home with her, then we couldn't be truly attached parents and they didn't want us tainting their group. :roll: Meanwhile, our nursing toddler is still worn on the constant and is incredibly attached to both of us.

[docmom]

My 9 year old is going through a lying phase and I am totally open to ideas on how to handle it. She has never been harshly punished, but when caught red-handed she will deny, deny, deny. I usually point out that I know the truth and don't really care to hear her version of events. If she insists, then I tell her to take it in another room because I don't want to hear it. I admit to being a little rude about it ("Listen, I saw you in here sneaking cookies and you have crumbs on your mouth, so you can stop protesting already because I am losing respect for you with every single word.") Do they outgrow this? I mean, in the scenario given the worst I would do is take away dessert because she already had her cookies. There is just no reason for it and I hate to think that I am raising a liar. edited because pronouns are important.

My 9 yo is doing this too. I think he gets into a situation he doesn't want to be in and he spins the story until he truly believes it's the truth even although it's completely contrary to all the evidence. Usually having him go away to his room for a little while to calm down and think it through works. I cannot imagine that spanking would in any way change this behavior as, until he calms down and thinks rationally, he is convinced he IS telling the truth. I wouldn't worry too much about this becoming a habit. The good liars aren't caught!

[emmiedahl]

Another poster pointed out the pride issue, and I think this is HUGE in my situation. So thank you, whoever wrote that, was it Austin? The only times she has pulled this are when she has done something she knew better than to do and was caught red-handed. I am going to start being gentler and telling her it's okay to make mistakes, but being a good person means owning up and making amends. I will try to offer a way that she can elect to make up for it immediately. I think that will offer her a way out without lying, without making her feel like a bad person, and also teach her an option besides lying in the long term.

[Koala]

Another poster pointed out the pride issue, and I think this is HUGE in my situation. So thank you, whoever wrote that, was it Austin? The only times she has pulled this are when she has done something she knew better than to do and was caught red-handed. I am going to start being gentler and telling her it's okay to make mistakes, but being a good person means owning up and making amends. I will try to offer a way that she can elect to make up for it immediately. I think that will offer her a way out without lying, without making her feel like a bad person, and also teach her an option besides lying in the long term.

I think that's a great way to handle it.

[AnnoDomini]

My 9 year old is going through a lying phase and I am totally open to ideas on how to handle it. She has never been harshly punished, but when caught red-handed she will deny, deny, deny. I usually point out that I know the truth and don't really care to hear her version of events. If she insists, then I tell her to take it in another room because I don't want to hear it. I admit to being a little rude about it ("Listen, I saw you in here sneaking cookies and you have crumbs on your mouth, so you can stop protesting already because I am losing respect for you with every single word.")

Do they outgrow this? I mean, in the scenario given the worst I would do is take away dessert because she already had her cookies. There is just no reason for it and I hate to think that I am raising a liar.

edited because pronouns are important.

My heart goes out to you. Children lying when caught in the act are very difficult, and it must ofcourse be very trying. I do strongly encourage you to not ever use words or phrases like 'I don't care' or refuse to listen, even to blatant lies. It's not my place to tell you how to parent, which is why I simply encourage you, and share why I wouldn't do it.

If I told my children I 'didn't care', did not allow them to speak, or communicated that I would not listen to them, even for things that I felt were sure lies, I think my child would learn that I would ever listen to them, that she couldn't trust me to hear her. And so often the things we 'know' are just things we're sure of--two different things. And sometimes the most sure we are, the most confident we are that we 'know' because we saw it, sometimes we are wrong. And I'd be horrified if I treated my child like I didn't care, that she couldn't talk to me, if I later found out that the situation was not what I thought it was.

Let me share a nerdy example: Harry 'knew' what Snape did to Dumbledore, but the real story was pretty much the opposite of what he thought he 'knew'--even though he had witnessed the act.

It's so important for children to know they can come to us and we will listen, that we will always care about them, that we will always listen to their point of view. I cannot stress how hugely important this is in our relationship with our children. If we use words like 'I don't care' even if that's not what we mean, it can be very damaging. If we refuse to listen to their 'story' even when we 'know' what really happened, we are still sending the message that we will not listen to their point of view, that we only care about what we think, that we make up our minds and refuse to hear anything that contradicts our preconceived ideas. (Even if our preconceived ideas happen to be right.)

[Austin]

I haven't been there yet, but there's actually a really good chapter in NutureShock.

At least I thought it was good.

OMG, NurtureShock is the bomb. I read it too late to have it positively affect my parenting too much (my kids were already grown/nearly grown), but geesh, I could have used that research-based knowledge ten or fifteen years earlier and would have been a more effective parent. The more you know the better you do, so I would highly recommend NurtureShock. It corrects the incorrect ways that parents have been thinking about things for decades.

[Austin]

My heart goes out to you. Children lying when caught in the act are very difficult, and it must ofcourse be very trying. I do strongly encourage you to not ever use words or phrases like 'I don't care' or refuse to listen, even to blatant lies. It's not my place to tell you how to parent, which is why I simply encourage you, and share why I wouldn't do it.

If I told my children I 'didn't care', did not allow them to speak, or communicated that I would not listen to them, even for things that I felt were sure lies, I think my child would learn that I would ever listen to them, that she couldn't trust me to hear her. And so often the things we 'know' are just things we're sure of--two different things. And sometimes the most sure we are, the most confident we are that we 'know' because we saw it, sometimes we are wrong. And I'd be horrified if I treated my child like I didn't care, that she couldn't talk to me, if I later found out that the situation was not what I thought it was.

Let me share a nerdy example: Harry 'knew' what Snape did to Dumbledore, but the real story was pretty much the opposite of what he thought he 'knew'--even though he had witnessed the act.

It's so important for children to know they can come to us and we will listen, that we will always care about them, that we will always listen to their point of view. I cannot stress how hugely important this is in our relationship with our children. If we use words like 'I don't care' even if that's not what we mean, it can be very damaging. If we refuse to listen to their 'story' even when we 'know' what really happened, we are still sending the message that we will not listen to their point of view, that we only care about what we think, that we make up our minds and refuse to hear anything that contradicts our preconceived ideas. (Even if our preconceived ideas happen to be right.)

I think you may be misunderstanding what Emmiedahl meant, but she can answer for herself. But telling a child who is in the middle of an intractable (seeming) lying situation that you are interested in the truth and that's all at that point, and if they can't come clean, they need to have some time to themselves is NOT saying "I don't care". It does no good to allow the child to follow you around repeating the lie over and over again, and they need to know that lying is disrespectful. I don't need to tolerate disrespect from my children, and so that's where the separation thing comes in (going to their room or whatever), if necessary. It is not about not letting the child speak. At all. If Emmiedahl's situation with her daughter is at all like my K and lots of other kids who go through this phase, we give them plenty of chance to speak. We practically beg them to speak and tell us what's going on in their heads and what they are so worried about.

I think that you have also missed another point which is that precisely because we have over many years made sure our children "know they can come to us and we will listen, that we will always care about them, that we will always listen to their point of view", the lying befuddles us because they already know this, they have experienced it many times in the past (our unconditional love, acceptance, and forgiveness) and it's hard to understand why they're suddenly lying about stupid things.

[AnnoDomini]

I see your point, and appreciate your respectful response.

[EmmieJ]

it's okay to make mistakes, but being a good person means owning up and making amends

This is one of the main reasons why I would be so unhappy when my son would lie about something. The underlying fear that he was not only growing up without a good conscience; but the thought of him as an adult, always making excuses and never accepting his mistakes and then moving on to do better. It really helped to step back and re-examine the times when the lying happened (and when it didn't), and see it from a different perspective.

I hope this doesn't sound too crazy, but I often use Cesar Millan's advice when dealing with my son. I try to remain calm yet assertive. I try to avoid disciplining in anger. And I make sure my kid gets a lot of exercise and fresh air, because a tired child is usually not getting into trouble due to excess energy.

[emmiedahl]

Well, I think maybe AnnoDomini was brought up in a very different way than I raise my kids and thus would be concerned that I am not listening to my daughter. I do talk to her on a daily basis; we talk about everything. This lying situation is kind of the extreme end of parenting for me, because it is the biggest problem I have encountered in 16 years of raising children. She did get a reaction that is extreme for me, and it was not a parenting moment that I am particularly proud of. I do think that we should listen to our children and solicit their opinions, but when she is obviously lying, I cut her off. It's not very nice and that's why I am glad that I came up with another way of dealing with it with the help of more experienced parents here.

My general approach is to figure out what is causing the problem and then work with that knowledge. That usually requires talking, definitely.

[Austin]

I stand by my opinion that I would not have stood by and listened indefinitely if the child was obviously lying. I would encourage that child to tell the truth, to remind them that they have nothing to fear from telling the truth, and be as supportive as possible - of them telling the truth.

K would stick by his lie, and would become frustrated if I would not believe him. At a certain point, I thought it was totally appropriate to have him separate himself and think about things for a bit. One doesn't need to be rude, but I certainly made my expectation clear, as in, "You need to go to your room and think about this, because you and I both know what's going on here, and lying is disrespectful to me". Yes, respect is a two-way street, and both parent and child need to demonstrate it toward the other, but lying is completely unacceptable, can become habitual, and I chose not to treat it lightly. On the hierarchy of "sins" in our household, it ranked up there as probably the worst. We always told them, "If we know the truth, we will help you through anything. If you lie to us, you hogtie us and take us for fools, and we will not be able to help you like we would want to".

Thankfully, this was a phase or "stage", which is not uncommon, and he got over it.

[AnnoDomini]

Snape 'obviously' murdered Dumbledore in cold blood, too. Yet the truth was so far removed from what was 'obvious'.

When I was young, my family was staying several states away from my home, with a pastor and his wife and son. One day, the pastor asked me if I'd seen his son. I hadn't, so I said no. The pastor then turned around, pointed to his son who was playing off in the distant field behind him where I could have seen him but didn't, and told me I was lying, and lectured me for it.

I was telling the truth, and I have never forgotten that lecture for something I didn't do. He 'knew' I was lying too. He knew what he saw. He was still wrong. I was still telling the truth. I did not deserve that lecture. To this day I am extremely sensitive when accused of lying when I have not done so. Truth is a big part of who I am.

[SunnyAndrsn]

As a foster parent, spanking as an option was taken off the table. It forced more creativity, and although there were times when I wondered if spanking would have resulted in results sooner, we'll never know. My son was too old to be spanked when we adopted him, and in any case didn't feel that it ever would have been an option. Frankly, he would have seen it as a challenge. I did slap him across the face once, it was completely out of anger and frustration. He was about 13 years old at the time. We had a discussion about this recently (he's now 20) and he laughed at the idea that I slapped him. He doesn't even remember it. He's a lot bigger than I am, and a lot stronger--thus the laughter.

My sister and I were also recently discussing this, and she and my brother were spanked a lot more than I ever was. My mother had horrible PMS and about once a month she had a very, very short fuse. She spanked with wooden spoons, and these rightly couldn't be called spankings, as my siblings would run and hid from her. When I was about 5 and my brother was about 12, he broke and hid all of the wooden spoons. Mom sort of got the point--the spankings stopped for the most part.

I don't remember specific spankings myself, other than one, and it was very traumatic with her in a complete rage and swinging a belt. I don't ever recall any of us having bruises, and my sibling say that they didn't have bruises/marks either. She'd threaten "wait to your father gets home", but she was the one with the temper and spanked in anger/rage. My dad never laid a hand on us. He couldn't handle our tears :-)

I love my mother, and in retrospect, my siblings and I think that her problems were related to her PMS. It was like clockwork that she'd have these rage/temper problems. If she were alive today, I wonder if she'd justify her hitting the way so many of the Christian parents the OP quoted do? Or would she acknowledge her problem? She became ill when I was about 12/13, and died of a horrible disease when I was 27.

99% of my childhood memories are good. I hate thinking about the 1% that sucked, especially when it involves my mom, who I loved dearly and miss every day.

Back on track to the discussion...I'm really glad I never had the option to spank as a parent. I fear I would have lost my temper like my mom did.

[SunnyAndrsn]

PS...we liked the Love and Logic books

[thetabmeister]

..........

[emmiedahl]

I get this all the time: "Well, I know kids who aren't spanked and their parents let them do whatever they want! It's mayhem!" Sure, there are bad parents who do not spank. That does not make all parents who don't spank 'bad'. Consider: can you be a bad husband without hitting your wife? Does the lack of hitting make you a great husband by default? How about this: can you be a good husband *and* hit your wife? Why not? Do those reasons apply to children? Yes, many of them do.

As for the boy who cried because he didn't get his spanking: I call bullshit. And if this *is* true, which seems highly unlikely, then that child is being abused because he thinks that being smacked=being loved.

[CynicMom]

Some random advice I heard from a child psychologist to deal with lying was this: "Never ask your child a question that you already know the answer to. If you enter a room to see a cookie missing and your child surrounded by crumbs asking them if they ate the cookie is BEGGING them to lie."

[Austin]

I recently got into an argument on Facebook with some postsers in a Christian women's FB group. I wanted to post some of the responses I got from the pro-spanking advocates to see what FJ'ers thought. I hope this is the right thread to do so.

Some thoughts posted to me after my pro-spanking Facebook friends learned of my no-spank position:

(in response to my explaining why I do things differently)

Bunch of random yada yada and then I post:

Then I got this doozy:

I asked :

And I would love to post their answers but, surprise, I didn't get a single one.

Instead, I got:

and

and

I found all of it disturbing. But the post that took the cake for being the most disturbing, and possibly an indicator of how messed up people who manipulate and control really are was this:

I'd welcome any thoughts about this, particularly the last quote. I personally think that a child can only have been trained to associate physical pain and assault with love in order to NOT feel loved in the absence of such. I know this is a touchy subject. :|

Well, I'll go on the record and say I judge people who spank their kids. For a million reasons, but the bottom line is that there are just better ways, period. One thing I cannot stand is willful ignorance. You could give these women a million reasons why spanking is not the best we can do, and they will still put their fingers in their ears and chant "la-la-la-la-la". I think the way of thinking that is shown by these women is a prime example of Emerson's "foolish consistency".

Our policy was not to spank and my children are now 21 and 18 (twins). While they could be rowdy at home, as boys can be, I never had big problems with defiance or disobedience. And I'm not bragging b/c I would not assume it was just b/c of the way we raised them, but they behaved like gold in public and we were never embarrassed by their conduct in public places. Part of the reason for that is we talked to our kids and we made our expectations very clear and provided a clear path as to how those expectations could be met. Natural consequences (- ex. if you don't do your homework, your grade will suffer) are the best teachers. ;)

They are not perfect and like all people, they have their quirks and flaws. But they are good people with compassionate hearts and people outside our family frequently comment on how our boys have "turned out", so to speak. I really don't know if this is because of me and my husband or in spite of us - lol, but I'll take it. :D

There is a continuum of parenting styles which boiled down, is authoritarian-authoritative-permissive. Research has consistently shown that children raised by authoritative parents do the best. These are parents with consistent and reasonable expectations who talk with their children as if they are actually people. This was our approach, although I'm sure we executed it in a very flawed way. They knew we were in charge and this was non-negotiable, but that their opinion mattered, too.

Authoritarian parents often produce angry, rigid children and I'm sure you're familiar with those results. Permissive speaks for itself and kids run the home. There is a happy medium, so to speak, and lots of good advice available on how to strike that balance.

But you really, really do not have to hit a child in order to raise a decent human being. So please take heart in the face of all of this sort of criticism and dire warnings.

[apple1]

Some random advice I heard from a child psychologist to deal with lying was this: "Never ask your child a question that you already know the answer to. If you enter a room to see a cookie missing and your child surrounded by crumbs asking them if they ate the cookie is BEGGING them to lie."

So glad you posted this. I hadn't heard this before from any so-called "expert", but this was exactly my philosophy in raising my (now-adult) kids.

To do otherwise seemed to me to be backing the child into a corner with no viable options.

BTW- This approach worked for me.

[AlexIsAwake]

I found all of it disturbing. But the post that took the cake for being the most disturbing, and possibly an indicator of how messed up people who manipulate and control really are was this:

I'd welcome any thoughts about this, particularly the last quote. I personally think that a child can only have been trained to associate physical pain and assault with love in order to NOT feel loved in the absence of such. I know this is a touchy subject. :|

I agree with other posters who have said that for this kid to equal a spanking with love, he has been abused. And I would add brainwashed. In fact, I think his example just goes to show how, even if a child is not physically abused in any other way, spanking in and of itself is abusive.

Tabmeister, one of my best friends and I are both anti-spanking (and believe it or not, we actually first came to this conclusions after watching Supernanny for years and seeing how there ARE other ways to discipline children that don't require hitting them). Every now and then, my friend will post some type of anti-spanking article on her FB. It never fails to get people all riled up. The latest post is a video which talks about statistics showing children who are spanked are more aggressive and less well adjusted. Here is the YouTube link for anyone who is interested.

Because of the backlash to this video from her Christian friends who spank, she also dug up a very good article which goes through all of the main verses Christians take from the Bible and use them to defend spanking. The verses are deconstructed and it seems to be safe to conclude that the Bible does NOT definitively mandate (or even condone) spanking kids. Here is the link to that article. Tabmeister, I thought that this in particular might be something of interest for you to share with the ladies in the FB discussion.

"A study of 'The Rod' Scriptures"

http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positivedi ... r/id4.html

[Hane]

Something I once read, in response to comments about "moderate" use of spanking: "At some point, a kid is going to turn to you and say, 'That didn't hurt.' And then what do you do--pound him into next week? You're setting the kid up to be even more rebellious, and yourself up for failure."

[thetabmeister]

..........

[AlexIsAwake]

Anyway, I appreciate the links and the moral support here for non-abusive parenting and discipline, and I will continue to speak the truth even though so many are afraid to hear it.

Never stop. :)

Ever heard the saying "truth is treason in the empire of lies?" It seems very fitting here.

[emmiedahl]

Someone referenced SuperNanny. I'm sure I am going to get blasted for this by someone, but I think she is a bitch. She gets in their faces and yells. I can't stand the whole timeout/timer thing--you are basically spanking them with isolation and rejection. Plus, there is some total power-tripping going on: I am the ADULT and you will do what I say just because I say so! She deals with some pretty extreme cases of misbehavior, so maybe this is warranted. But I hate to think that someone is watching the show and then dealing with typical childhood behavior that way.

[AnnoDomini]

If you disagree with the concept of time-out, what punishment/teaching tool other than talking-only would you recommend?