Christian Forum Thread About Spanking Kids

[Mompom]

So sorry everyone. :( Awful.

[Mommy22alyns]

Oh, I absolutely believe siblings often get treated differently. I was an only child but I often saw double standards in the way other parents treated one sibling versus another. I think it is a pretty well known phenomenon that parents lighten up on younger children.

I am more stunned that you got spanked after the age of 18! Is that right or is that a typo? My father threatened up through the age of 15 but never actually followed through after I was 10. My biggest fear in life though was being spanked after puberty.

Isn't that the truth? My sister is 9 years younger and had a MUCH different upbringing than I had. I remember a whole lot of bare-butt belt spankings, and my dad once took a wooden board to my ass. Yeah, nice childhood memories. I'm sorry for everyone else who's dealt with that and more.

[raineymott]

Starting to write a series of posts on my blog dissecting To Train Up a Child. Wish me luck!

[raineymott]

First post: http://tinyurl.com/ttuac-intro

[AnnoDomini]

Later after my mother stopped having 'the energy' to spank, she treated me much differently than some of my siblings. She was extra sensitive to the slightest 'problem' in me. The slightest wrong expression or off tone of voice and she'd get this 'you did a bad thing' look on her face. I finally pointed out to her that she held me to a far, far higher standard than other of her own children and it wasn't right. She agreed.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

My heart just aches for you guys. I don't know what else to say. I was swatted on the butt a few times as a kid, from my dad's loss of temper, but I hardly remember it.

I flat out told my husband we weren't having kids until he agreed that he would never spank. He was spanked fairly regularly as a child and is one of the deniers who didn't see what the big deal was. He came around to my side when he realized I was dead serious. All it really took was for him to see an example of positive parenting (something he had definitely never seen before) for him to get it and be fully on-board. I think for some people they literally have no clue that there are other (read: better) ways to parent, though I don't find that to be an excuse at all.

[Bella99]

This is so very true. My younger sister and I have a very different view of my mom than my older sister does--my mom's 'crazy' really started when big-sis left for college.

I'll also say that I am the only kid that my parents ever spanked w/ an implement. This still amazes me because spankings were relatively rare and I was SUCH a compliant child 99% of the time (Yelling at me WAS punishment.) -- it's just that compliant kids do have a stubborn streak.

(to be fair, I don't fault my parents in that instance. I got bored in school (age 5/6) and took a pair of scissors to the hem of my dress--cut out patterns. Got home, mom asked what happened to my dress. I lied, said I had no idea. I was sent to my room w/o a snack. Dad asked what happened--I was sticking to my story. Sent to room w/o supper. Lied more. Was put w/ nose on tape 'x' in corner and told they KNEW I had cut the dress, I insisted I hadn't. Washed out mouth w/ soap. Took away privileges. washed out mouth again. More time on 'x', swats on butt...still lied. My dad took off his belt and hit me with it 2x and I finally admitted I lied.

I'm not saying that was the 'right' response but I certainly get why my folks did it--they had exhausted EVERYTHING else they could think of and they felt [not necessarily wrongly] that lying was a big-hairy-deal. [a dress would have earned me the loss of privledges/snack/something--it was the lying that got me in trouble]

Only time my dad used a belt; he came up w/ something better [don't remember what] before it became an issue again.)

I think your parents handled this badly. Her Maj did the exact same thing in kindergarten, we gave her a talking to and a time out, made her sit with me while I mended her clothes and that was the end of it. It was obvious what had happened, asking her repeatedly would just have encouraged her to lie about it and the more times the adult asks, the more times the kid has to practice lying. I read a story about how if you get a call from school and already know what happened, don't ask them "How was school today?", let them know that you got the call and listen to their side of it.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm looking forward to raineymott's series dissecting the Pearls!

[dawbs]

I think your parents handled this badly. Her Maj did the exact same thing in kindergarten, we gave her a talking to and a time out, made her sit with me while I mended her clothes and that was the end of it. It was obvious what had happened, asking her repeatedly would just have encouraged her to lie about it and the more times the adult asks, the more times the kid has to practice lying. I read a story about how if you get a call from school and already know what happened, don't ask them "How was school today?", let them know that you got the call and listen to their side of it.

I don't disagree that it's less than ideal...

but I also know that it wasn't a habit w/ my dad, that they generally didn't do that sort of thing.

I haven't had a chance to handle anything that badly w/ my kid yet--and I don't think I'll do it in that way. But I"m operating under the assumption I will screw up that badly. And that it'll be OK.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I don't disagree that it's less than ideal...

but I also know that it wasn't a habit w/ my dad, that they generally didn't do that sort of thing.

I haven't had a chance to handle anything that badly w/ my kid yet--and I don't think I'll do it in that way. But I"m operating under the assumption I will screw up that badly. And that it'll be OK.

Not to be a bitch here, but "less than ideal" is quite the understatement. Soaping your mouth, shaming you in the corner, spanking, then resorting to a belt is abusive behavior. It will not be "OK" for you to do that to your child and it's a little scary that you think so.

[Trynn]

Not to be a bitch here, but "less than ideal" is quite the understatement. Soaping your mouth, shaming you in the corner, spanking, then resorting to a belt is abusive behavior. It will not be "OK" for you to do that to your child and it's a little scary that you think so.

I quite agree. I think if I was a parent, I would respond to the denial with "well then what did happen?" And then I would listen as the child tried to make up some story, and then point out the inconsistencies. Then point out how lying is pointless because you end up digging yourself in a hole. That would've been much more effective if all they wanted out of you was the truth.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think spanking is definitely counter-productive when trying to teach a child not to lie. I was threatened with spanking enough that lying seemed like a great strategy. In fact, I felt I had to lie to my parents on a regular basis because if I admitted to them that I had broken something, or gotten in trouble at school, or done something wrong, that could earn me a punishment.

And I think that kind of illustrates a major problem with spanking: it doesn't teach any productive way to solve problems, which is why sweeping problems under the carpet by lying to cover them up is a natural way for a child to respond to spanking. I really like Trynn's solution of showing how lying is ineffective. And I think I would take it a step further, by showing that if you tell the truth, then we can solve the problem. Why did you cut your dress? If you were upset about something, we can deal with that. If you were just bored or thought it would be fun, then we can address that, but I need to know so I can teach you what is correct and incorrect.

[Patsy]

I've been having a little bit of a hard time, recently, just in myself. I had a very subtle subconscious dream about it last night, in which I hid in stranger's yards so people on the street wouldn't see me cry, and eventually phoned my mother and begged her to pick me up. I think zombies started attacking the car at that point, so I guess the whole thing wasn't an expression of my current inner life ;) but when I woke up I had that same reaction - ask Mum for help.

When I have felt desperate, scared and alone, and wanted reprieve, my mama has always been someone safe to turn to. Isn't that what Christians are supposed to think of Jesus as? An unconditional font of safety and love, with inexhaustible psychological comfort, unconcerned with condemnation once the situation has been acknowledged? Aren't parents supposed to be the Godly representatives on Earth for these children, representing God's personality and position in their lives?

I can't tell you how much it pains me that there are people in this world who don't have at least one safe person they can always turn to for security and comfort. The fact that the parents who have been mentioned in this thread would, for the most part, have described their parenting philosophy as something similar to representing God on Earth only makes them that bit more culpable, in my mind.

[dawbs]

eh, there's no way to further engage here for me w/o sounding seriously defensive and argumentative.

I don't plan on using my parent's 'discipline techniques' w/ my kid. At all. But I also know why they used them--just planning on 'being different' without understanding what got my parents to that point wouldn't help. Failure to explore and understand is what leads these cycles to exist. (and I'm quite sure my kid will get me to that point --where I'd want to handle it poorly and it seems logical to, eventually).

When I said I plan on screwing up I say that because I'm human. I'll screw up. I'll find a completely new a different way to screw up. Such is the joy of being human.

There were better ways to handle it and there's no denying that. My dad would find them now. My mom wouldn't defer to my dad on them now. They got less rigid with age and they're not horrible beasts. And my dad knows his own screw ups and owns them. (my mom is kinda crazy so it's harder to know)

I've dealt w/ (by myself and in counseling) my parents and my past. They did what they thought was best--and it wasn't best. My family has already gone a long way to breaking cycles and I plan on breaking them farther.

The judgement about my parenting --for merely acknowledged that my parents handled one event poorly (and, as I noted, it wasn't a pattern of behavior for them) and that I plan on not screwing up that way but acknowledging that I"m human, isn't exactly helpful.

[raineymott]

To Train Up a Child chapter 1, part 1 http://tinyurl.com/ttuac-chap1-pt1

[CanadianHippie]

Isn't that the truth? My sister is 9 years younger and had a MUCH different upbringing than I had. I remember a whole lot of bare-butt belt spankings, and my dad once took a wooden board to my ass. Yeah, nice childhood memories. I'm sorry for everyone else who's dealt with that and more.

I am going to have to disagree to an extent. I'm the youngest and my sister got away with way more shit than I did, and not nearly the punishments I got. My sister never got anything worse than a talking to, I got everything from groundings to getting spanked once. Plus if my sister slacked off it fell on me to make it up. I think it probably has more to do with the parents idea of the child than birth order.

[emmiedahl]

My 9 year old is going through a lying phase and I am totally open to ideas on how to handle it. She has never been harshly punished, but when caught red-handed she will deny, deny, deny. I usually point out that I know the truth and don't really care to hear her version of events. If she insists, then I tell her to take it in another room because I don't want to hear it. I admit to being a little rude about it ("Listen, I saw you in here sneaking cookies and you have crumbs on your mouth, so you can stop protesting already because I am losing respect for you with every single word.")

Do they outgrow this? I mean, in the scenario given the worst I would do is take away dessert because she already had her cookies. There is just no reason for it and I hate to think that I am raising a liar.

edited because pronouns are important.

[EmmieJ]

Re lies children tell, even when they are flat-out busted:

I don't know how common it is, but this may well be somewhat common behavior. This has happened with my son as well. It's usually a small infraction of some kind - and I know and he knows he did it, but he will deny it emphatically. This can drive me slightly crazy, but I've had to learn to fight the bigger battles and try not to let this get under my skin. I usually say something along the lines of "I know you did it, and I'm sorry you won't be honest about it, but I'm done discussing it. Please don't let it happen again." He'll have to have the last word/final protest, but I usually just walk away at that point.

Conversely, he is very honest the rest of the time. Once, he walked with a friend to the nearby convenience store, without getting my permission first. When he got home, he almost immediately confessed. If he hadn't said anything, I probably never would have discovered it. I was upset, but we discussed why he should have asked me first, why it's important I always know where he is, and then I asked him what his punishment should be. He decided that he should lose one week's allowance and be grounded through the week-end. I agreed that was fair and that's what we did.

My point is that you are probably not raising a liar. I bet overall your child is pretty honest with you. If it becomes a bigger problem, you might try a reward/loss of privilege scenario. When she is honest about something, she gets a small reward (allowed to stay up 10 minutes past bedtime, you agree to buy her favorite cereal next time at the store, something relatively minor), but when she does not tell the truth and is busted, she has to go to bed ten minutes earlier than usual, gets 50 cents deducted from her weekly allowance per occurrence, etc.

[Austin]

My 9 year old is going through a lying phase and I am totally open to ideas on how to handle it. She has never been harshly punished, but when caught red-handed she will deny, deny, deny. I usually point out that I know the truth and don't really care to hear her version of events. If she insists, then I tell her to take it in another room because I don't want to hear it. I admit to being a little rude about it ("Listen, I saw you in here sneaking cookies and you have crumbs on your mouth, so you can stop protesting already because I am losing respect for you with every single word.")

Do they outgrow this? I mean, in the scenario given the worst I would do is take away dessert because she already had her cookies. There is just no reason for it and I hate to think that I am raising a liar.

edited because pronouns are important.

My experience is that they outgrow it. One of our sons went through a similar phase. He would deny-deny-deny, too, despite incontrovertible evidence and it was frustrating. I used your same technique and would say, "As long as you're lying to me, I don't need to be seeing or hearing you". I don't think you're being rude at all, really (I mean, just based on the words). I think it's good for them to know that trust is based on honesty and if the child isn't honest, nobody will trust them.

I doubt that you are raising a liar. It's a pretty common phase. The really committed liars I know are people who were raised in very authoritarian ways who were terrified of their parents growing up. They had to lie to just get by, and in those situations, it sometimes becomes habitual. It doesn't sound like your daughter is afraid of you, so I would just keep stressing the importance of honesty. We always told (and still do) our kids that any mistake or misdeed we could work through, but lying about it would make it impossible for us to trust them or help them or advise them to resolve the issue.

[Bella99]

My 9 year old is going through a lying phase and I am totally open to ideas on how to handle it. She has never been harshly punished, but when caught red-handed she will deny, deny, deny. I usually point out that I know the truth and don't really care to hear her version of events. If she insists, then I tell her to take it in another room because I don't want to hear it. I admit to being a little rude about it ("Listen, I saw you in here sneaking cookies and you have crumbs on your mouth, so you can stop protesting already because I am losing respect for you with every single word.")

Do they outgrow this? I mean, in the scenario given the worst I would do is take away dessert because she already had her cookies. There is just no reason for it and I hate to think that I am raising a liar.

edited because pronouns are important.

I do think (hope) that they grow out of it. Refusing to listen while she keeps trying to spin her tale is a good idea. Something that made sense to me was if you are already sure of the crime, calmly hand out the penalty and don't ask her what happened. At least then she has fewer opportunities to lie about her misdeed. And a punishment if you catch her directly in a lie, hopefully one that relates to the subject matter of said fib. (Good luck, I think sometimes they lie just so that they know something you don't.)

[emmiedahl]

Thanks for the advice. :) I feel better knowing that other people have this problem. Grace actually is pretty honest in general, which is why I am a little weirded out that she started this. I am going to try and stay calmer, because when she starts protesting I get furious. I have always felt like I could trust my children because they aren't afraid of me and have no reason to lie, and this destroys that illusion completely.

She'll probably outgrow it. She has outgrown every other "phase" she went through. She is just a challenging child, so I am always surprised by how bad the phases can be.

[Austin]

Thanks for the advice. :) I feel better knowing that other people have this problem. Grace actually is pretty honest in general, which is why I am a little weirded out that she started this. I am going to try and stay calmer, because when she starts protesting I get furious. I have always felt like I could trust my children because they aren't afraid of me and have no reason to lie, and this destroys that illusion completely.

She'll probably outgrow it. She has outgrown every other "phase" she went through. She is just a challenging child, so I am always surprised by how bad the phases can be.

I had those same feelings when K went through this, thinking we had innoculated against lying b/c our kids knew they could talk to us and we would not be reactionary or angry. The element we didn't understand, at least with K, is that kids have pride, too. As things would unravel for K in a lying situation, it would become clear that he was just trying to save face. He had done something he knew he should not have done, went down the deny road, and didn't know how to turn back around.

[dawbs]

My 9 year old is going through a lying phase and I am totally open to ideas on how to handle it. She has never been harshly punished, but when caught red-handed she will deny, deny, deny. I usually point out that I know the truth and don't really care to hear her version of events. If she insists, then I tell her to take it in another room because I don't want to hear it. I admit to being a little rude about it ("Listen, I saw you in here sneaking cookies and you have crumbs on your mouth, so you can stop protesting already because I am losing respect for you with every single word.")

Do they outgrow this? I mean, in the scenario given the worst I would do is take away dessert because she already had her cookies. There is just no reason for it and I hate to think that I am raising a liar.

edited because pronouns are important.

I haven't been there yet, but there's actually a really good chapter in NutureShock.

At least I thought it was good.

[emmiedahl]

That looks like a great book! I will check it out, I'm sure our library has it. I tend to avoid parenting books because they rarely mesh with my thinking on children, but this sounds more up my alley.

I think one of the problems with being an attachment parent is that there is little info on what to do about problem behaviors. I'm not a fan of spanking and I don't even really like time out (except for the go-away-until-you-can-be-more-pleasant type). There's a lot on how to raise babies, but I always feel like I am winging it with older kids. I have AP friends who let their older kids run amok and I am not quite that crunchy.

[jenny_islander]

That looks like a great book! I will check it out, I'm sure our library has it. I tend to avoid parenting books because they rarely mesh with my thinking on children, but this sounds more up my alley.

I think one of the problems with being an attachment parent is that there is little info on what to do about problem behaviors. I'm not a fan of spanking and I don't even really like time out (except for the go-away-until-you-can-be-more-pleasant type). There's a lot on how to raise babies, but I always feel like I am winging it with older kids. I have AP friends who let their older kids run amok and I am not quite that crunchy.

Check out the Gentle Christian Mothers. Although they are conservative Christians and you have to answer religious questions to join, they let all kinds of people in--I'm Lutheran/Episcopalian myself and although I disagree with them on some things, I've never felt unwelcome there. Some of the threads about child rearing are open to browsing by non-members.