"RadicalFemininity," a treasure trove of fundie cliches

[L1o2u3]

A few pictures from the wedding. Abigail looks like she has gained some weight. I think she will announce a pregnancy within the next few weeks. 

I think Hannah's dress might be a used one where they added a few things (like the blue details). 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I agree. Her face is fuller. She will announce a pregnancy soon. 

[Soulhuntress]

The words Cultural Appropriation seem appropriate.  The dancing just is painful.    Hava Nagila and the Chicken Dance should NEVER EVER Be combined.  

 

[Soulhuntress]

This is a Hora in a Jewish wedding.  Note that the more traditional weddings have gender separated receptions and women dance separately from men.  Note the lack of chicken dancing.  Who knew a history major was useful!   

[L1o2u3]

Hannah and James did the chair dance thingy too. 

There are a few pictures from the wedding https://www.facebook.com/holly.henson.9/media_set?set=a.10214237308036055.1073741865.1515783525&type=3&pnref=story but they're not that good. I  guess/hope that they also had another photographer ^^ Looks like they had falafel, kebab, pita bread and hummus (among other things). Maybe also couscous. Not exactly festive food  (at least in my opinion, here in GER this is something you can get on almost every corner in the cities. I wonder if kebab is also very popular in the US for a quick snack?), but as long as they have enough tsaziki or some other kind of garlic yoghurt sauce, I am happy  

Hannah looks very pretty though (in my opinion) and very princessy. I still want to see the top of the dress in a better picture, but I like it (and I still suspect that it was a used dress with a few alterations). It doesn't look very modern or chic, but it's okay. 

 

[Lurky]

It's like they're having a fancy dress party or something, cosplaying being Jewish.  I'm getting second hand embarrassment looking at the pics,

I don't understand - why don't they just convert to Judaism? Oh wait, I bet they think actual Jewish people are doing it wrong!

[L1o2u3]

@Lurky I wonder how they feel doing it. If it is really meaningful to them or if it feels more like an exciting costume party. I personally wouldn't want to be Messianic (despite the fact that I do not share their interpretation of Scripture) because I don't understand the tradition and I wouldn't feel at home. Even if that is how Jesus himself lived. (And I love Christmas way too much to give it up  ). 

[SusanAtTheLastBattle]

As usual, they are cosplaying "Jewish in the time of Jesus" using a mix of random Jewish traditions from after Jesus' time, and random biblically-inspired things that Jews would never do.  

Non-Jesusy Jewish things:

The hora (circle dance with chair dance, looks like they're only doing the chair part?) comes from modern Eastern Europe.

"Chuppah" means covering, and the important part of the tradition is that you are covered by a piece of cloth during the wedding ceremony. The covering is usually held up by some kind of poles or frame. These nudniks just decorated a frame with ribbon like it's some kind of garden trellis. (The idea of chuppah being some kind of wedding covering may back to the Bible, but putting it on a frame seems to be at least early modern, according to Wikipedia).

Non-Jewishy biblical things:

No one blows a shofar (ram's horn) at a wedding. ??? why?

I am not positive, but I am guessing that the blue stripes on her wedding dress are meant to imitate the blue stripes on a tallit (prayer shawl) like the one the groom is wearing. I know other messianic Jews we follow here incorporate the symbolism of the tallit, including its fringes, onto women's clothing. So that's just my hunch as to what's going on with her dress. Jews interpret the biblical verses about wearing fringes and wearing blue stripes as justification for the tallit (which traditionally only men wear, liberal groups have women wear them too). No Jews put fringes or stripes on regular clothing.

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 hours ago, Lurky said:

It's like they're having a fancy dress party or something, cosplaying being Jewish.  I'm getting second hand embarrassment looking at the pics,

I don't understand - why don't they just convert to Judaism? Oh wait, I bet they think actual Jewish people are doing it wrong!

Exactly! They are picking all the things they like associated with Jews but don't actually want to be Jews. I can't handle the cringing I'm doing right now. My face is starting to hurt. 

[Georgiana]

12 hours ago, Lurky said:

It's like they're having a fancy dress party or something, cosplaying being Jewish.  I'm getting second hand embarrassment looking at the pics,

I don't understand - why don't they just convert to Judaism? Oh wait, I bet they think actual Jewish people are doing it wrong!

So I live super near this Orthodox-ish Messianic Jewish Community.  For the most part, they are nice people.  GREAT neighbors.  Because they aren't allowed to drive on the Sabbath, they all have to live within walking distance of the temple, which means many have moved into my neighborhood.  And honestly, it's been WONDERFUL for the neighborhood.

But

I also looked them up online (as I would look up any religious group moving into my neighborhood).  Turns out they are INCREDIBLY predatory towards and have a contentious relationship with the local Jewish communities. It's beyond cultural appropriation.  It's like they feel that THEY (the Messianics) are the "real Jews", and that they have been sent by God to "save" other Jewish communities.  They use their incredible knowledge of Jewish religion, culture, scripture, Hebrew language, etc. to infiltrate actual Jewish communities, deceive them into believing that they also are Jewish, and then trying to convert them.  Wolves in sheep's clothing.   

I'm not sure if this is just the community near me or if this is how all Messianic communities behave.  But it is seriously very disturbing.  Some of the accounts online I read from Rabbis and elders who were deceived by them were rather heartbreaking.  They went out of their way to be nice and welcoming, gave these folks the benefit of the doubt with regards to a few red flags, and then...

I honestly can't believe this is the first time it's come up on FJ  I always think about FJ when I see them.  

[Lurky]

@Georgiana That's super-creepy.  Gave me the shudders. 

@SusanAtTheLastBattle I'd assumed the blue touches were referencing the tallit.  It's like they're trying to pile in as many references as possible.  I'm amazed she doesn't have the star of David embroidered all over her dress.  The mix'n'match approach is so weird to me.

[ViolaSebastian]

20 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

I also looked them up online (as I would look up any religious group moving into my neighborhood).  Turns out they are INCREDIBLY predatory towards and have a contentious relationship with the local Jewish communities. It's beyond cultural appropriation.  It's like they feel that THEY (the Messianics) are the "real Jews", and that they have been sent by God to "save" other Jewish communities.  They use their incredible knowledge of Jewish religion, culture, scripture, Hebrew language, etc. to infiltrate actual Jewish communities, deceive them into believing that they also are Jewish, and then trying to convert them.  Wolves in sheep's clothing.     

I cannot even imagine going to into ANY community I wasn't born into and having the gall to tell the people there that they're 'doin' it wrong.' I mean, the balls you would have to have to even consider it would have to be enormous. Let alone a faith community with such an incredible tragedy within some member's memory--and at the very least, those members' children. The phrase 'don't teach your grandmother how to suck eggs' comes to mind. 

ETA: Have we talked about how Abigail's new last name is LaGoy? Because *snort*

[Anonymousguest]

@SusanAtTheLastBattle you said "no one blows a shofar (ram's horn) at a wedding. ??? why?" 

I didn't watch their video so I'm not sure what you are saying here. That they didn't have anyone blow the Shofar? Or that typically there is no Shofar at a Jewish wedding? 

 

 

@ViolaSebastian I know, LaGoy, I love it. I meant to comment on it earlier. Or maybe I did I can't remember. It's perfect for a fake Jewish couple. 

[Rachel333]

19 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I cannot even imagine going to into ANY community I wasn't born into and having the gall to tell the people there that they're 'doin' it wrong.' I mean, the balls you would have to have to even consider it would have to be enormous. Let alone a faith community with such an incredible tragedy within some member's memory--and at the very least, those members' children. The phrase 'don't teach your grandmother how to suck eggs' comes to mind. 

The thing that makes this a little bit more difficult is that many times they WERE born into that community, and they also have ancestors who were persecuted horribly for being Jewish. And since "Jewish" isn't solely a religious description, you can't say they aren't really Jewish. (Though I do think it is entirely fair to say that the religion they practice isn't really Judaism.)

I've worked at a Messianic conference twice now and what surprised me was how many of them--probably the majority of the ones I met--do have Jewish roots. They came to Messianic Judaism through Judaism, not because they were Christians first. This was a big contrast from the (admittedly few) Messianic people I knew back when I lived in Arkansas, who were all non-Jewish Christians before they got into Messianic Judaism, much like the people we're talking about on this thread.

I actually really don't have a problem with people who want to combine the Jewish traditions of their heritage with the belief they've adopted that Jesus is the Messiah. What I do very much have a problem with is the ones who use very deceptive tactics to get other people to adopt the same beliefs.

(Although--and this is something I struggle with when it comes to religious proselytism in general--as annoying as missionaries are, if you truly believe that your religion saves people, especially if the alternative is being tortured for eternity, shouldn't you be trying to do everything possible to convert others? If I saw a bunch of people marching unknowingly to their death I wouldn't just stand by and do my own thing, I would do everything I could to stop them. And yet, even the most devout missionaries don't actually live that way. I feel like there's somewhat of a disconnect in which even most of the truest believers don't completely treat their beliefs the same way they do something they can actually see and experience. I suppose it's similar to how you can know that horrible things are happening to people in other parts of the world but it feels different from actually seeing it happen in front of you.)

[SusanAtTheLastBattle]

54 minutes ago, Anonymousguest said:

@SusanAtTheLastBattle you said "no one blows a shofar (ram's horn) at a wedding. ??? why?" 

I didn't watch their video so I'm not sure what you are saying here. That they didn't have anyone blow the Shofar? Or that typically there is no Shofar at a Jewish wedding? 

The Holly Henson pictures linked above show someone blowing a shofar. It's not a custom associated with Jewish weddings. Traditionally the shofar is blown on special days in the calendar (each new moon, during the month before the High Holidays, on Rosh Hashanah, and then at the end of Yom Kippur) which goes back to the Bible. But it's not used at life cycle events.

@Rachel333 I agree that people have a right to relate to their own background and tradition in whatever way. It's not appropriation then, exactly, just really non-mainstream choices. But yeah, the deception really gets me.

[L1o2u3]

They are back from the honeymoon in Israel and of course since Hannah's been married for eteeeeernity now, she's an expert on marriage. Here's your typical "marriage is so awesome and so worth it" post. From that perspective, the dress looks rather weird and ill-fitting. The front looked better. And isn't it nice that her sister (probably Abigail) helps her with the laundry because doing the laundry for two people is just so much work when you're home all day  

 

@Lurky A propos. Star of David. I don't know if Hannah's betrothal ring has been postet here yet... Isn't it... beautiful... 

 

 Hannah's brother Tommy also has an Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hebrewhillbilly/ . Right now he's in Israel. 

[dripcurl]

The bangs 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I'm just imagining a gigantic Star of David onthefront if their house. Gotta let everyone know how incredibly Jewish this convert is! 

[L1o2u3]

He should get a tattoo on his forehead. Are they allowed to have tattoos? Probably not. 

[L1o2u3]

I found the original dress. I knew it was her mom's! They added some fabric to hide the cleavage, the blue ribbon because ISRAEL and the sleeves aren't see-through anymore and then stitched it together so that it is a little more loose, in my opinion. Too bad she didn't wear the hat, too ^^ Without the modesty and ISRAEL!! alterations, it looks okay for an 80ies wedding dress. 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Do you guys ever think these extremely enthusiastic converts want to go back after a decade but are too embarrassed? So they just keep it up for show? 

[dripcurl]

17 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Do you guys ever think these extremely enthusiastic converts want to go back after a decade but are too embarrassed? So they just keep it up for show? 

I read through a lot of their blog, but not a ton of this thread... could someone humor me and say what they are exactly converts for? Are they just distastefully over-done Messianics or are they Judaism converts? There is no mention of grace, salvation, Jesus, the Holy Spirit from what I have read on RF, but they do use the New Testament.

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 minutes ago, dripcurl said:

I read through a lot of their blog, but not a ton of this thread... could someone humor me and say what they are exactly converts for? Are they just distastefully over-done Messianics or are they Judaism converts? There is no mention of grace, salvation, Jesus, the Holy Spirit from what I have read on RF, but they do use the New Testament.

I always thought they were Messianic converts. I think the parents converted when the oldest ones were very young. I believe they were very mainstream and living in town when they converted. They left the city for farm life and that had to be around 20 years ago. They do seem more extreme than most Messianic Jews. That's why it seems to me there can't be that many guys for these girls to choose from. 

[seraaa]

@SusanAtTheLastBattle I am not Jewish, but if I were I'd feel amused to exasperated to annoyed that they were doing this.

Like, you think we're not getting into Heaven but you're going to cosplay and culturally appropriate all our traditions - which probably have their own meanings - even though you have no connection to any of it? what?

ETA: Having read more posts, I see it's a bit more complicated than that, so I'll reserve my judgy comments

[JermajestyDuggar]

42 minutes ago, seraaa said:

ETA: Having read more posts, I see it's a bit more complicated than that, so I'll reserve my judgy comments

Come sit by me. We can be judgy together.