Trump 6- The saga of the lone orange continues

[candygirl200413]

I'm so mad/ of course not surprised how so many people are proud of him saving these 800 jobs (which this tax credit was given due to his VP). Also if Trump says one more time how he's making sure jobs don't leave America, he needs to use his own damn advice and use that logic for his own damn company but I'm tired of getting mad at the same time cause I know it isn't going to happen.

 

Also will he or anyone on his cabinet (again they won't) realize that technology has been taking over these jobs and that it's inevitable?

[GreyhoundFan]

This CNN article about how Agent Orange may be setting Romney up for a massive embarrassment is interesting. Sadly, it's probably true.

Quote

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark, or, in an equally Shakespearean enclave, Trump World.

I have a sinking feeling that Donald Trump's courtship of Mitt Romney is a setup meant to eventually embarrass the one-time Never Trumper on a massive scale.

When it was first floated that the President-elect and his transition team were considering Romney for Secretary of State, it seemed like a far-fetched idea or, at best, a trial balloon meant to gauge Romney's footing amongst Trump Republicans.

 

Quote

The other oddity is that Romney's competition isn't getting nearly the same treatment. When is Rudy Giuliani's photo op? When does David Petraeus get frogs' legs and diver scallops?

The non-cynical answer would be that Trump is seriously considering Romney and wants to signal publicly that he's leaning in his direction while calming the detractors who think they couldn't possibly get along.

But I'm not buying it. The whole thing reeks of a Stephen King prom night setup that ends with Trump dumping a bucket of pig's blood onto Romney's head.

Knowing Trump's obsession with loyalty and his penchant for revenge -- he once tweeted the Alfred Hitchcock quote "Revenge is sweet and not fattening" -- it's totally plausible that this is just an elaborate plan to embarrass Romney for his opposition.

The mean girl image of pig's blood on prom night is so apropos, since Cheeto is like a mean girl.

 

The article also points out the policy differences between the two. Well, since Cheeto doesn't have any actual policies, Romney's policies vs. Drumpf's tweets.

 

[GreyhoundFan]

Bernie wrote an interesting article about how Carrier has shown other corporations how to beat Drumpf.

Quote

Today, about 1,000 Carrier workers and their families should be rejoicing. But the rest of our nation’s workers should be very nervous.

President-elect Donald Trump will reportedly announce a deal with United Technologies, the corporation that owns Carrier, that keeps less than 1,000 of the 2,100 jobs in America that were previously scheduled to be transferred to Mexico. Let’s be clear: It is not good enough to save some of these jobs. Trump made a promise that he would save all of these jobs, and we cannot rest until an ironclad contract is signed to ensure that all of these workers are able to continue working in Indiana without having their pay or benefits slashed.

In exchange for allowing United Technologies to continue to offshore more than 1,000 jobs, Trump will reportedly give the company tax and regulatory favors that the corporation has sought. Just a short few months ago, Trump was pledging to force United Technologies to “pay a damn tax.” He was insisting on very steep tariffs for companies like Carrier that left the United States and wanted to sell their foreign-made products back in the United States. Instead of a damn tax, the company will be rewarded with a damn tax cut. Wow! How’s that for standing up to corporate greed? How’s that for punishing corporations that shut down in the United States and move abroad?

In essence, United Technologies took Trump hostage and won. And that should send a shock wave of fear through all workers across the country.

Trump has endangered the jobs of workers who were previously safe in the United States. Why? Because he has signaled to every corporation in America that they can threaten to offshore jobs in exchange for business-friendly tax benefits and incentives. Even corporations that weren’t thinking of offshoring jobs will most probably be reevaluating their stance this morning. And who would pay for the high cost for tax cuts that go to the richest businessmen in America? The working class of America.  

Let’s be clear. United Technologies is not going broke. Last year, it made a profit of $7.6 billion and received more than $6 billion in defense contracts. It has also received more than $50 million from the Export-Import Bank and very generous tax breaks. In 2014, United Technologies gave its former chief executive Louis Chenevert a golden parachute worth more than $172 million. Last year, the company’s five highest-paid executives made more than $50 million. The firm also spent $12 billion to inflate its stock price instead of using that money to invest in new plants and workers.

Does that sound like a company that deserves more corporate welfare from our government? Trump’s Band-Aid solution is only making the problem of wealth inequality in America even worse.

I said I would work with Trump if he was serious about the promises he made to members of the working class. But after running a campaign pledging to be tough on corporate America, Trump has hypocritically decided to do the exact opposite. He wants to treat corporate irresponsibility with kid gloves. The problem with our rigged economy is not that our policies have been too tough on corporations; it’s that we haven’t been tough enough.

We need to re-instill an ethic of corporate patriotism. We need to send a very loud and clear message to corporate America: The era of outsourcing is over. Instead of offshoring jobs, the time has come for you to start bringing good-paying jobs back to America.

If United Technologies or any other company wants to keep outsourcing decent-paying American jobs, those companies must pay an outsourcing tax equal to the amount of money they expect to save by moving factories to Mexico or other low-wage countries.  They should not receive federal contracts or other forms of corporate welfare. They must pay back all of the tax breaks and other corporate welfare they have received from the federal government. And they must not be allowed to reward their executives with stock options, bonuses or golden parachutes for outsourcing jobs to low-wage countries. I will soon be introducing the Outsourcing Prevention Act, which will address exactly that.

If Donald Trump won’t stand up for America’s working class, we must.

Amen.

[RoseWilder]

Trump's legal team filed a petition to stop the Michigan recount: 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/donald-trump-michigan-recount-blocked-232076

Well that's a little suspicious. If he's so sure he won, then what's the big deal in having a recount. 

[Mecca]

5 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

I'm so mad/ of course not surprised how so many people are proud of him saving these 800 jobs (which this tax credit was given due to his VP). Also if Trump says one more time how he's making sure jobs don't leave America, he needs to use his own damn advice and use that logic for his own damn company but I'm tired of getting mad at the same time cause I know it isn't going to happen.

 

Also will he or anyone on his cabinet (again they won't) realize that technology has been taking over these jobs and that it's inevitable?

Here is what gets me. Trump admitted today he really was not going to make good on his promise in regards to Carrier and was prompted to do something once one of his supporters that happened to be a Carrier employee in the Indiana plant reminded Trump of his promise. Trump did not think he said he would save their jobs, but someone showed Trump a clip of him saying he would save their jobs. 

Another thing that bothers me about this situation is Trump saves a few hundred jobs and his supporters and media praise him like he saved the world, but those same people have not given any type of credit to President Obama or his administration for turning the horrible economy he inherited around.  

I fear that corporations are going to use this Carrier situation as leverage to line their own pockets and what they really need to be doing is educating the manufacturing workforce so they can compete for manufacturing jobs. My husband works in engineering in the air con/heating industry and he says the manufacturing in the area is far behind in the States.

[GreyhoundFan]

2 minutes ago, Mecca said:

Here is what gets me. Trump admitted today he really was not gong to make good on his promise in regards to Carrier and was prompted to do something once one of his supporters that happened to be a Carrier employee in the Indiana plant reminded Trump of his promise. Trump did not think he said he would save their jobs, but someone showed Trump a clip of him saying he would save their jobs. 

Another thing that bothers me about this situation is Trump saves a few hundred jobs and his supporters and media praise him like he saved the world, but those same people have not given any type of credit to President Obama or his administration for turning the horrible economy he inherited around.  

I fear that corporations are going to use this Carrier situation as leverage to line their own pockets and what they really need to be doing is educating the manufacturing workforce so they can compete for manufacturing jobs. My husband works in engineering in the air con/heating industry and he says the manufacturing in the area is far behind in he states.

I love the following quote in this article:

Quote

One of the best explanations of the Donald Trump 2016 phenomenon is this, via Salena Zito: "The press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally."

But apparently some supporters took him both seriously and literally. And Trump, rather amazingly, is surprised by this.

During his attempted victory lap in Indiana on Thursday celebrating the fact that Carrier opted to keep jobs in the state thanks to $7 million in incentives, Trump candidly admitted that he didn't even remember having promised to keep Carrier's jobs in the state and insisted that he hadn't actually meant to make that promise.

He said his mention of keeping Carrier's jobs was meant to signify other manufacturing companies that might be tempted to move jobs outside the country — as Carrier long planned to do — in the future, and that he didn't even realize he had said it until he saw on the news that Carrier's workers expected him to make it happen.

"About a week ago, I was watching the nightly news," Trump said, adding an obligatory dig at the media. "But they were doing a story on Carrier. And I say, 'Wow, that's something. I want to see that.'"

Trump recalled a "handsome" employee who was interviewed for the piece who didn't seem worried about the company's plans to move production to Mexico.

"He said something to the effect, 'No we're not leaving, because Donald Trump promised us that we're not leaving,'" Trump said. "And I never thought I made that promise — not with Carrier. I made it for everybody else. I didn't make it really for Carrier. And I said, 'What's he saying?'"

Trump went on: "And they played my statement. I said, 'Carrier will never leave.' But that was a euphemism. I was talking about Carrier, like all other companies from here on in. Because they made the decision a year and a half ago. But he believed that that was — and I could understand it."

...

The article goes on with more speculation about the other "promises" Agent Orange made during his verbal bouts of diarrhea on the campaign trail.  I guess everything is a euphemism to him.

[Mecca]

I don't want it to appear that I don't care about the people working for Carrier and the people keeping their jobs should not be happy, but I am looking at the bigger picture here with the precedent that Trump has set forth.

Frankly, this all looks more like a PR stunt on both ends. Trump looks like a good guy and Carrier comes off looking like they care about SOME of their employees. How is this type of negotiation attainable going forward economically if other corporations demand the same treatment? And while everyone is busy giving Trump credit, they are failing to realize one of the things Trump had to give up in the negotiations with Carrier was his promise to tax corporations that left the U.S. Who is the ultimate winner here? Sounds like Carrier. They get more money, tax incentives, deregulations, free publicity and forced Trump into toning down his talk of taxing them when they do leave to Mexico with those other 1,400 jobs Trump and Indiana did not bother to fight for. How exactly is this a slam dunk for Trump? 

[Childless]

4 hours ago, Mecca said:

I don't want it to appear that I don't care about the people working for Carrier and the people keeping their jobs should not be happy, but I am looking at the bigger picture here with the precedent that Trump has set forth.

Frankly, this all looks more like a PR stunt on both ends. Trump looks like a good guy and Carrier comes off looking like they care about SOME of their employees. How is this type of negotiation attainable going forward economically if other corporations demand the same treatment? And while everyone is busy giving Trump credit, they are failing to realize one of the things Trump had to give up in the negotiations with Carrier was his promise to tax corporations that left the U.S. Who is the ultimate winner here? Sounds like Carrier. They get more money, tax incentives, deregulations, free publicity and forced Trump into toning down his talk of taxing them when they do leave to Mexico with those other 1,400 jobs Trump and Indiana did not bother to fight for. How exactly is this a slam dunk for Trump? 

It's not, but his supporters either aren't bright enough to figure that out or simply don't care.  Sad to say, but I think it's more likely the former.

The thing is, it's not offshoring that is the issue.  The U.S. is the second largest manufacturer in the world.  The problem is that technology is progressing and our population is not.  There are thousands of manufacturing jobs the U.S. that go unfilled because of a lack of skilled workers.  If you aren't willing to go back to school and get the education and training necessary to compete in an ever changing world, you're going to be left behind.  No one, not even Donald Trump, can make it 1980 again.  That's what the government should be doing.  They should be helping to re-educate the populace.  The days of being able to support yourself or your family on a high school diploma are gone and they are never coming back.  That's just the way it is.  Those who can adapt will be successful and those who don't will suffer.  No amount of bitching and whining will change that fact.

[Howl]

9 hours ago, Mecca said:

I fear that corporations are going to use this Carrier situation as leverage to line their own pockets and what they really need to be doing is educating the manufacturing workforce so they can compete for manufacturing jobs. My husband works in engineering in the air con/heating industry and he says the manufacturing in the area is far behind in the States.

One of the MSM newa shows interviewed two Carrier workers whose jobs would be saved.  One guy (white, mid 30s) basically said, I have a job, my kids will have Christmas presents, and didn't want to look any further past that.  The other guy, an older black man who is also a pastor, said he was grateful, but was deeply concerned about all the other issues related to the deal.  This was a man who very clearly understood that you don't get something for nothing and was concerned on a deeper ethical level about what might have been given up to have Carrier stay. 

[GreyhoundFan]

5 hours ago, Childless said:

It's not, but his supporters either aren't bright enough to figure that out or simply don't care.  Sad to say, but I think it's more likely the former.

The thing is, it's not offshoring that is the issue.  The U.S. is the second largest manufacturer in the world.  The problem is that technology is progressing and our population is not.  There are thousands of manufacturing jobs the U.S. that go unfilled because of a lack of skilled workers.  If you aren't willing to go back to school and get the education and training necessary to compete in an ever changing world, you're going to be left behind.  No one, not even Donald Trump, can make it 1980 again.  That's what the government should be doing.  They should be helping to re-educate the populace.  The days of being able to support yourself or your family on a high school diploma are gone and they are never coming back.  That's just the way it is.  Those who can adapt will be successful and those who don't will suffer.  No amount of bitching and whining will change that fact.

I was thinking about the 1998 movie, "Primary Colors". There is a scene where Jack Stanton is appearing before a group of shipbuilders in a small town. He said (I'm paraphrasing because my memory is shot) that no politician could bring back the manufacturing jobs because muscle jobs go where muscle labor is cheap, and that's not here. To succeed, you (the audience) would have to exercise a different set of muscles, the ones in their head. That is so true.

A family member of mine used to work in a factory, making furniture for children. The workforce kept getting cut because of the automation that was continuously brought in to optimize the building process. The folks who couldn't or wouldn't get the certification to run the machinery were the first to go. My family member struggled because the CNC (computerized manufacturing machine) was difficult to learn, especially for someone who had never used a PC.

I agree with @Mecca, I don't want to appear that I'm not happy for the 1K people who retained their jobs (for now). I worry about the long-term implications of this "deal".

 

There was an interesting article about how Drumpf is going to have to deal with North Korea sooner rather than later.

Quote

When Donald Trump first strides into the Oval Office as president, his perfect day is likely to be ruined by a file marked “North Korea.” Trump’s (first? only?) term in office may include either a messy confrontation with an unpredictable and highly combustible regime, or a rogue nation gaining the power to destroy large portions of Los Angeles with nuclear weapons. Or both.

Consider the viewpoint of North Korea’s leader Kim Jong Un — which is not easy since the exercise, properly done, should include platform shoes, Dennis Rodman and a “pleasure squad” of teen virgins. Kim looks at South Korea and sees political chaos, as its president is overwhelmed by a corruption scandal. He looks at the United States and sees massive uncertainty, created by an untested leader who has promised to reconsider security arrangements with South Korea and Japan and may begin an attention-diverting trade war with China.

America’s new president will look at North Korea and see a sworn enemy from a bloody war that has never officially ended, sprinting toward the capability to mount nuclear weapons on long-range missiles. The regime is not in need of new technologies or facilities; it is adapting capabilities that it already possesses. Between 2009 and 2016, North Korea conducted 64 missile tests and nuclear detonations. By some estimates, it may have the ability to strike the West Coast in four years. Or less.

...

Would the American people be ready for the effective resumption of the Korean War? Would South Korea be willing to risk the shelling of its capital to enforce an American nuclear red line?

Strategic realities and hard choices, not business-book negotiating skills,will determine the outcome of the Korea crisis. This is reality television — minus the television.

Kim Jong Un isn't going to be cowed by Agent Orange's bluster.

[47of74]

5 hours ago, Childless said:

It's not, but his supporters either aren't bright enough to figure that out or simply don't care.  Sad to say, but I think it's more likely the former.

The thing is, it's not offshoring that is the issue.  The U.S. is the second largest manufacturer in the world.  The problem is that technology is progressing and our population is not.  There are thousands of manufacturing jobs the U.S. that go unfilled because of a lack of skilled workers.  If you aren't willing to go back to school and get the education and training necessary to compete in an ever changing world, you're going to be left behind.  No one, not even Donald Trump, can make it 1980 again.  That's what the government should be doing.  They should be helping to re-educate the populace.  The days of being able to support yourself or your family on a high school diploma are gone and they are never coming back.  That's just the way it is.  Those who can adapt will be successful and those who don't will suffer.  No amount of bitching and whining will change that fact.

Well it seems to me the second someone gets education for these high tech jobs they figure out away to send jobs overseas.  The second they figured out how to send all the IT jobs to India and China that's pretty much what happened.  And even when the jobs have to stay in the country then they run in a bunch of H1-Bs for whatever bullshit reason they can invent, even when there are Americans who can do the jobs. 

[Childless]

1 hour ago, 47of74 said:

Well it seems to me the second someone gets education for these high tech jobs they figure out away to send jobs overseas.  The second they figured out how to send all the IT jobs to India and China that's pretty much what happened.  And even when the jobs have to stay in the country then they run in a bunch of H1-Bs for whatever bullshit reason they can invent, even when there are Americans who can do the jobs. 

The company has to pay for those visas.  If they could find adequate Americans to do the jobs, they would.  I work in a technical field.  We spent months (all of those struggling to keep up with demand while a person down) looking for someone to fill an open position.  None of the Americans interviewed had the skills we needed.  One person here on an H1-B did and so he was hired.  Could we have eventually found an American to fill that position?  Probably.  But how long was the company expected to go on struggling and loosing customers due to excessively long lead times just to try and find an American to fill the position?  It's obvious there is a lack of skilled technical workers in this country or it would have been easier for us to find one.  So, again, I say the government needs to work on training and educating the populace for the needed positions in the manufacturing industry.  There would be less need for H1-B holders if there were Americans willing and able to do the jobs.

[47of74]

5 minutes ago, Childless said:

The company has to pay for those visas.  If they could find adequate Americans to do the jobs, they would.  I work in a technical field.  We spent months (all of those struggling to keep up with demand while a person down) looking for someone to fill an open position.  None of the Americans interviewed had the skills we needed.  One person here on an H1-B did and so he was hired.  Could we have eventually found an American to fill that position?  Probably.  But how long was the company expected to go on struggling and loosing customers due to excessively long lead times just to try and find an American to fill the position?  It's obvious there is a lack of skilled technical workers in this country or it would have been easier for us to find one.  So, again, I say the government needs to work on training and educating the populace for the needed positions in the manufacturing industry.  There would be less need for H1-B holders if there were Americans willing and able to do the jobs.

Then how would you explain this?

mercurynews.com/2016/09/06/emmons-when-walt-disney-co-replaces-americans-with-h1b-workers-its-a-small-world-for-sure/

Quote

Technology workers at the Walt Disney Co. recently learned the true meaning of “it’s a small world after all.” The firm laid off 250 employees and replaced them with foreign contractors brought to the United States on high-skilled work visas.

Disney’s not alone. Dozens of companies are exploiting loopholes in the visa program to displace qualified Americans with cheaper workers from the other side of the globe. A small world, indeed.

Lawmakers created the H-1B “high-skilled” visa program in the 1990s. They wanted to let firms recruit highly specialized foreigners if no qualified Americans could be found. But corporations have perverted the program, importing lower-paid guest workers for jobs that Americans are already performing.

Consider the utility Southern California Edison, which laid off 400 IT workers and forced them to train their H-1B holding replacements. SCE’s newly-acquired foreign contractors earn about 40 percent less than the Americans they displaced.

 

[Childless]

3 minutes ago, 47of74 said:

Then how would you explain this?

mercurynews.com/2016/09/06/emmons-when-walt-disney-co-replaces-americans-with-h1b-workers-its-a-small-world-for-sure/

 

I guess Americans should accept a 40% reduction in salary if they want those positions.  Americans are die hard capitalists.  This is a consequence of capitalism.  You want free markets, you have to take the good with the bad.  Personally, I'm partial to a more socialist society (ala Europe), but a majority of Americans eshue such economic philosophy.  Therefore, they must accept the consequences of the ideals they champion.

I still think there's a lack of skilled American workers.  We currently have seven openings in my department that we can't seem to fill at all (even with H1-B visa holders).  This country is seriously lacking in STEM professionals.  You want a job, those are the degrees you need to go after.

[47of74]

Just now, Childless said:

I guess Americans should accept a 40% reduction in salary if they want those positions.  Americans are die hard capitalists.  This is a consequence of capitalism.  You want free markets, you have to take the good with the bad.  Personally, I'm partial to a more socialist society (ala Europe), but a majority of Americans eshue such economic philosophy.  Therefore, they must accept the consequences of the ideals they champion.

I still think there's a lack of skilled American workers.  We currently have seven openings in my department that we can't seem to fill at all (even with H1-B visa holders).  This country is seriously lacking in STEM professionals.  You want a job, those are the degrees you need to go after.

And of course Agent Orange will probably forget about his promises to tighten up the H1-B abuses. 

[Childless]

1 minute ago, 47of74 said:

And of course Agent Orange will probably forget about his promises to tighten up the H1-B abuses. 

Of course.  I don't think he planned to keep any of his promises.  Hell, he doesn't even remember making most of them (as evidenced by the need to be reminded of his promise to Carrier workers via a video playback).  Truthfully, he never planned on actually being president.  I think he was as shocked as the rest of us on election night.

[47of74]

Just now, Childless said:

Of course.  I don't think he planned to keep any of his promises.  Hell, he doesn't even remember making most of them (as evidenced by the need to be reminded of his promise to Carrier workers via a video playback).  Truthfully, he never planned on actually being president.  I think he was as shocked as the rest of us on election night.

And I get the feeling the entire population of the planet Earth will spend the next century paying for Fuckface Von Clownstick getting into office.  If we're not all wiped out in a nuclear holocaust that he starts when someone insults him.  Hell he might even turn such weapons against his own people. 

[samurai_sarah]

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