Q for ex-fundies: How much "better" did you know?

[MamaJunebug]

I think this has been discussed before, but the discussion on the new baby born to 18-year-old Taylor and 23(24?)-year-old Blair Tsantles included this comment from Creaky Steel and it got me wondering.

Quoth Creaky Steel:

I have a 17 yo son. He's not much into girls, yet. (uber-jock) I'm pretty sure his genitalia has not reached it's full potential (he's been too busy growing size 13 feet). He can't even grow a beard yet.

I understand that some young men are fully developed way before that. One of his friends, a year younger, can grow a mustache in 3 days. But he's still growing.

I just can't imagine having sex and building a life together, as an adult woman, with a person who is still growing, no matter how "mature" he is.

But she can't know any better, can she?

I know there are few males posting here, but I ask both men and women: Did you have any idea that there were positive options for life, while you were in a cultish situation?

I mean, I thought of Blair. By the time she married at 22/23, she'd traveled at least around the USA, if only to San Antonio for VF film fests and such. Surely she visited towns nearby her parents' huge lakeside home.

Did she only notice the skanky girls slinking around the streets with cigarettes hangin' out their mouths and dirty babies on their hips?

Or did she ever observe bright, sensible, self-confident girls her age, none of them in long skirts but perhaps wearing non-blingy cross necklaces or athletic jackets that bore the logo of a Christian school?

So since she's busy with two babies a baby now, I can't reasonably ask her, but I ask you: Did you know any better? If so, when? And if you didn't know any better, why do you think that was?

I know some may think these questions loaded or sanctimonious, and I apologize because I surely don't mean them to be. I just wonder if and how you saw any options "out there."

Kthx(inadvance)bai!

[Extricated]

I saw options but they were all considered worldly compromises. Why would I stoop to that level when God had called me to higher things? Those Christians just hadn't learned enough yet.

(I've stooped now and never been happier!)

[snarkykitty]

I see their wedding site, but do you have a link to their blog?

[MamaJunebug]

I see their wedding site, but do you have a link to their blog?

The Taylor Tsantles'? AFAIK there isn't one.

However if you go back at NCFIC.org to about '08 or '09, you'll find a long series of posts on the RV road trip a couple dozen of them took, in which TT was Brown's right-hand-man as well as the driver of the large RV for most of the trip.

Truth. A kid of 16 or so driving a Uriah all over the continent. Is that even legal? But I digress. You'll get some insights into the reverence with which Scott holds Taylor, as well as the fact that Taylor and Blair were thrown together on the trip over a 2-week period or so.

[Black Aliss]

I'm not sure whether I didn't know that there were other options or if I just didn't believe I deserved them. All I knew is that I'd rather die than live the life that had been laid out for me.

[Bookworm]

I knew about the other options, but I had a distorted view of them. For example, my first job when I was 18 had a girl who conformed to my expectations of public schoolers - horrible relationship with her parents, living with various friends, on drugs and cigarettes, swore a lot etc. She was still a lot nicer as a person than I expected, though. My second job a year later one of my coworkers was the first non-religious (though I think she sort of believed in God) person my age that I had gotten to know well at all. I was extremely surprised (and probably did not hide it well :oops:) when she told me about her dating practices and how picky she was before going out with someone. I honestly thought most girls were pretty loose and had sex all the time. Now I look back at what I thought about the outside world and I am so ticked off that my parents brought me up believing so many bizarre things. I think one way they kept believing those things themselves was that a lot of the non-homeschooling friends our family had was families that my parents were trying to counsel through major issues. So, duh, we got a very either-or view of things.

I think my parents kind of thought they were better than most of the "normal people" out there and thus made no effort to develop friendships with people who were not either likeminded or needing help. I am rather bitter about that, sorry, since I am still trying to learn a lot of social things I wish I had grown up absorbing.

[maybeizfundie]

During our 5 years in the cult, I was completely and utterly brainwashed. Although, their beliefs weren't typical of the fundies normally snarked on here. They had an odd mix of very conservative social views (male/female roles, extreme modesty, no divorce, no birth control, though that last one was in theory and birth control was used as a punishment for people in trouble, being "unworthy" to have more children) and radically leftist politics and activism. Bizarre. Also, the restrictions varied on the whims of the leadership.

We were aware of people doing things differently. We went to public highschool, even. We hung around with anti-death-penalty activists and other people of a liberal bent (who must have been very confused by us). But we were convinced that we had the Right Way, and everybody else, including all other Christians, were fakers. When we were kicked out, it took years for me to adjust to living in the Evil Outside World.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

During our 5 years in the cult, I was completely and utterly brainwashed. Although, their beliefs weren't typical of the fundies normally snarked on here. They had an odd mix of very conservative social views (male/female roles, extreme modesty, no divorce, no birth control, though that last one was in theory and birth control was used as a punishment for people in trouble, being "unworthy" to have more children) and radically leftist politics and activism. Bizarre. Also, the restrictions varied on the whims of the leadership.

We were aware of people doing things differently. We went to public highschool, even. We hung around with anti-death-penalty activists and other people of a liberal bent (who must have been very confused by us). But we were convinced that we had the Right Way, and everybody else, including all other Christians, were fakers. When we were kicked out, it took years for me to adjust to living in the Evil Outside World.

I find this fascinating, maybeizfundie. I'm not nearly as versed in the fundie families here as some, but I've not heard of any with conservative social views mixed with liberal politics. Do you have a blog? I'd love to read more about your experience.

[MamaJunebug]

Dropping by to thank you for all the replies. I hope to hear even more. This is sadly fascinating!

[marmalade]

During our 5 years in the cult, I was completely and utterly brainwashed. Although, their beliefs weren't typical of the fundies normally snarked on here. They had an odd mix of very conservative social views (male/female roles, extreme modesty, no divorce, no birth control, though that last one was in theory and birth control was used as a punishment for people in trouble, being "unworthy" to have more children) and radically leftist politics and activism. Bizarre. Also, the restrictions varied on the whims of the leadership.

We were aware of people doing things differently. We went to public highschool, even. We hung around with anti-death-penalty activists and other people of a liberal bent (who must have been very confused by us). But we were convinced that we had the Right Way, and everybody else, including all other Christians, were fakers. When we were kicked out, it took years for me to adjust to living in the Evil Outside World.

May I be as bold to ask why your family (I'll assume your parents) was kicked out? And from what branch of the fundie cult?

[liltwinstar]

I don't think I "knew better" until I was in my mid- or late- teens.

My sister and I were really isolated - we went to church, yes, but church was an hour away from us, and most of the attendees lived at least 30 mins beyond that, so there wasn't much socializing that went on. So, on a daily basis, I was with my mom 24/7 (and my dad after he was home from work, of course). Our reading materials were screened, we weren't allowed to watch TV, etc.

I think for me, my ignorance/naivete/whatever was a combination of things - I'm naturally a really shy person, so the thought of going to a middle school or high school with hundreds of students was literally terrifying. The girls that seemed normal (by which I mean, went to pubic school, had friends, and didn't wear prairie dresses) scared me because I had no social skills. The few "friends" that we were allowed to have were really mean...one girl spent all her time telling us how uncool we were and occasionally pinching or hitting us. Another girl stole our stuff. A third girl was, in retrospect, probably developmentally delayed. She wasn't mean, though - I just didn't really like her and I didn't understand the fact that her "weird" behavior was probably due to a disability. So, those experiences really soured me on the "friends" thing.

Also, my mom is pretty critical - she doesn't deal with jealousy or differences of opinion at all well, so it wasn't unusual to have long conversations dedicated to picking apart someone's wedding, or clothing choices, or whatever else she didn't approve.

We also went to a super Reconstructionist church from the time I was 9 until I was 14...that instilled a real sense of arrogance - that we were the "true" Christians, the "smart" ones (because Reconstructionists like nothing better than puffing their theological feathers, as we see with Daddy Bot). "Dumb" Christians believed in things like the rapture, evangelism, and being "nice." We, as the chosen ones, knew the TRUTH!! And the WAY! And we could recite the 5 points of Calvinism, so that made us better than anyone.

So, when you have fear on the one side and arrogance on the other, it's kind of the perfect storm for keeping you in your place.

What started me on the path out of fundie world? Well, it was a combination of things, but the easiest answer is education. When I was 14, a man in our church who decided to start a high school English class. He believed very strongly in educational rigor, plus he was an actual teacher (he was educated in a foreign country, so he didn't have a US credential, but he was still highly qualified). Not being from the US fundie system, he had a different view of the world. Anyway, he had us read Cry the Beloved Country and The Crucible - two books that are definitely not on the approved fundie reading list. He was willing to stand up to our parents and tell them things like "these kids don't know their grammar" or "yes, this book is violent/disturbing/whatever, but it has important themes."

Anyway, reading those books was the beginning of my realization that there are moral belief systems outside of the fundie world. It took me until I was 22 to leave, but I think the beginning was when I was 14.

[maybeizfundie]

I don't blog about the cult. Thought about it but they are extremely litigious.

It was a relatively small group, that was started on the Hutterite model of communalism, but drew a lot of hippies and "alternative" people in the 60's, and their politics came with. They had a rather bitter split with the Hutterites. I don't think the Hutterites were much impressed with Castro-worship, or campaigning for Mumia abu Jamal's release, or the brief foray into "hip" zine publication, though I'm sure there was more to it than that. It was very, very confusing, because they have such an absolutely bizarre mix of beliefs, and many of them seem quite contrary to each other. VF type fundies would likely mark them as a cult and brush them off, merely because of the "communism", lol. So they don't mix, as far as I know.

My parents got kicked out because they asked questions and just couldn't zip their lips when that would have been safer. It was unbelieveably painful, but we are all glad we got out before any of us kids had gotten old enough to join formally, or get married and have kids there. That would have made is a thousand times worse.

To be honest, I think my folks realized the deception of the place very quickly (what it looks like outside vs the reality of membership) but having uprooted themselves and their children, given up literally *everything*, including careers, and made vows before God, it was difficult for them to turn around and say "Oops." They lived for a while under the hope that as supposedly equal members, they could address problems they saw and maybe instigate change. Didn't happen.

[bananacat]

During our 5 years in the cult, I was completely and utterly brainwashed. Although, their beliefs weren't typical of the fundies normally snarked on here. They had an odd mix of very conservative social views (male/female roles, extreme modesty, no divorce, no birth control, though that last one was in theory and birth control was used as a punishment for people in trouble, being "unworthy" to have more children) and radically leftist politics and activism. Bizarre. Also, the restrictions varied on the whims of the leadership.

We were aware of people doing things differently. We went to public highschool, even. We hung around with anti-death-penalty activists and other people of a liberal bent (who must have been very confused by us). But we were convinced that we had the Right Way, and everybody else, including all other Christians, were fakers. When we were kicked out, it took years for me to adjust to living in the Evil Outside World.

That sounds like a much stricter version of Catholicism. I don't like the way the Catholic church treats women as less important than embryos, but at least they are consistent in that they oppose the death penalty and war in general, unlike most other fundie groups. They also care about helping the poor and needy, which is a pretty direct commandment from Jesus. I don't agree a lot of their stuff, but the "liberal" things are at least Biblically supported. They pick and choose just like every other religious group, but at least they are a little more consistent because they don't just pick the hateful stuff.

[mirele]

I don't blog about the cult. Thought about it but they are extremely litigious.

It was a relatively small group, that was started on the Hutterite model of communalism, but drew a lot of hippies and "alternative" people in the 60's, and their politics came with. They had a rather bitter split with the Hutterites. I don't think the Hutterites were much impressed with Castro-worship, or campaigning for Mumia abu Jamal's release, or the brief foray into "hip" zine publication, though I'm sure there was more to it than that. It was very, very confusing, because they have such an absolutely bizarre mix of beliefs, and many of them seem quite contrary to each other. VF type fundies would likely mark them as a cult and brush them off, merely because of the "communism", lol. So they don't mix, as far as I know.

My parents got kicked out because they asked questions and just couldn't zip their lips when that would have been safer. It was unbelieveably painful, but we are all glad we got out before any of us kids had gotten old enough to join formally, or get married and have kids there. That would have made is a thousand times worse.

To be honest, I think my folks realized the deception of the place very quickly (what it looks like outside vs the reality of membership) but having uprooted themselves and their children, given up literally *everything*, including careers, and made vows before God, it was difficult for them to turn around and say "Oops." They lived for a while under the hope that as supposedly equal members, they could address problems they saw and maybe instigate change. Didn't happen.

This sounds like the Bruderhof (now Church Communities International per Wikipedia). I knew a family back in the 80s who was enamored of them.

[marmalade]

I don't blog about the cult. Thought about it but they are extremely litigious.

It was a relatively small group, that was started on the Hutterite model of communalism, but drew a lot of hippies and "alternative" people in the 60's, and their politics came with. They had a rather bitter split with the Hutterites. I don't think the Hutterites were much impressed with Castro-worship, or campaigning for Mumia abu Jamal's release, or the brief foray into "hip" zine publication, though I'm sure there was more to it than that. It was very, very confusing, because they have such an absolutely bizarre mix of beliefs, and many of them seem quite contrary to each other. VF type fundies would likely mark them as a cult and brush them off, merely because of the "communism", lol. So they don't mix, as far as I know.

My parents got kicked out because they asked questions and just couldn't zip their lips when that would have been safer. It was unbelieveably painful, but we are all glad we got out before any of us kids had gotten old enough to join formally, or get married and have kids there. That would have made is a thousand times worse.

To be honest, I think my folks realized the deception of the place very quickly (what it looks like outside vs the reality of membership) but having uprooted themselves and their children, given up literally *everything*, including careers, and made vows before God, it was difficult for them to turn around and say "Oops." They lived for a while under the hope that as supposedly equal members, they could address problems they saw and maybe instigate change. Didn't happen.

Wow, that's intense, but didn't your parents suspect a cult when they gave everything up to join? That's Red Flag #1 in the How to Avoid Cults handbook (if such a book existed).

Bottom line, glad you're out and have found peace. xoxo

[maybeizfundie]

Wow, that's intense, but didn't your parents suspect a cult when they gave everything up to join? That's Red Flag #1 in the How to Avoid Cults handbook (if such a book existed).

I know, you'd think so, wouldn't you? And many people warned them, including their dearest friend and pastor.

But the thing is, they were *looking* for that level of communalism. They saw it and thought "Wow, this is how we can live out Acts 2 (the Early Church distributing goods among it's members)! Awesome!"

It was a wild ride. It wasn't all bad--for littler kids it was downright idyllic in many respects. Plus I met my husband through a weird series of events and connections that started there. Life is strange. :D

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm of the generation that looked for intentional communities that acted in the spirit of peace, and were generally socialistic, but still allowed private income. Since my husband and I were godless heathens, the religious groups didn't really catch our attention. Our search didn't begin until after 1985, late for 1960s hippys. Although we did not find a community that filled our needs, we did find a way we could live relatively rurally and still have some back to the land type experiences. At the same time we were a comfortable driving distance for me to work. A nearby Univ, gave us lots of free cultural experiences and I found a great career there.

Recently as I was considering living independent of a primary relationship I checked online to see what was out there. There are some viable groups, many aimed at gray haired moss eaters like myself.

In retrospect, I would have chosen to live with the Catholic Workers for a while, during my younger years.

[MamaJunebug]

Stories are addictive!

So, those who chose to live in a prescribed way, or who went into via their parents make me think of the "first" generation like Scott /Deb Brown, the elder Servens, even the elder Botkins, et. al.

The oldest gen'n knows what cooks in thebig world. How can they (how do they) keep from being honest w their kids that it isn't 1,000% evil out there? I suppose for Stacy McD and Kelly GC, who had miserable lives pre-cult, the answers could honestly be,"It's all evil."

But people like the elderMaxwells, who were bright enough and emotionally "together" enough, in their ownheads, to have met the prerequisites god a collegechem class -- how can they tell their kids, "It's hell outside" and still be able to look inthe mirror twic a day? I am serious.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm not sure whether I didn't know that there were other options or if I just didn't believe I deserved them. All I knew is that I'd rather die than live the life that had been laid out for me.

I'm pretty similar to this - I knew there was more, but I thought it wasn't for me/I didn't know how to get it.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I think I always knew there were other ways of life, but we were taught from a very young age how wrong they were. In a way, they were very smart about it because we were taught that we would meet nice people in all walks of like, but that we should feel sorry for them because our way was the only true way to believe and so these people were losing out on the rewards of living the true life.

[Rosa]

Experienced, I visited a few intentional communities & 1 ecovillage, and I came to see that as one of the key measures of community health: what do they do when someone wants to leave?

i did an internship on a commune farm - total commune, reports taxable income in a form originally thought up for the Shakers, the whole deal. And you know what they tell you to do when you join? Put your assets into an account and don't touch it, so if you ever want to leave you have that to go back to. Plus when someone leaves after many years of working in/for the community, they give them some cash if they have it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Experienced, I visited a few intentional communities & 1 ecovillage, and I came to see that as one of the key measures of community health: what do they do when someone wants to leave?

i did an internship on a commune farm - total commune, reports taxable income in a form originally thought up for the Shakers, the whole deal. And you know what they tell you to do when you join? Put your assets into an account and don't touch it, so if you ever want to leave you have that to go back to. Plus when someone leaves after many years of working in/for the community, they give them some cash if they have it.

Good insight, and I would never give my assets away or for anyone else to control.

I appreciate utopian socialism probably why Im a big fan of Dorothy Day, her politics and the humanity of some of her writings that are now coming to light. Its unfortunate she drank the RCC koolaid.