Topeka councilman and wife charged with child abuse

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Quoting   @SoybeanQueen "However, statements that she never knew or bonded with her siblings and therefore they wouldn't be important to her are not adoptee-centric. That's the same sort of thinking that allows potential adoptive parents to cheerfully rip children away from their home country or split up other sibling groups. There are many adult adoptees who seek out the siblings that they were never allowed to know. Why would they do that if those siblings weren't important to them?"

I agree. In this case though this seems a very little pro against too many cons. 

I'm really sorry that this is the situation of so many children. My mother always said she can't understand adoption because she would never be able to feel an adopted child as her own.  I always replied that at least she knows her limits and doesn't want to harm a child (and believe me that she would have done that).

 

 

[SoybeanQueen]

14 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Quoting   @SoybeanQueen "However, statements that she never knew or bonded with her siblings and therefore they wouldn't be important to her are not adoptee-centric. That's the same sort of thinking that allows potential adoptive parents to cheerfully rip children away from their home country or split up other sibling groups. There are many adult adoptees who seek out the siblings that they were never allowed to know. Why would they do that if those siblings weren't important to them?"

I agree. In this case though this seems a very little pro against too many cons. 

I'm really sorry that this is the situation of so many children. My mother always said she can't understand adoption because she would never be able to feel an adopted child as her own.  I always replied that at least she knows her limits and doesn't want to harm a child (and believe me that she would have done that).

 

 

There are certainly people for whom adoption would be a very bad idea, and I agree with you that there were a lot of cons to the Schumm family as a placement for that little girl. There are lots of variables in placing kids, and sometimes biology outweighs other factors.

I think what really bothers me at the end of the day is how many people will complain about these awful adoptive parents, but who are not willing to do anything to address the situation. Until more "normal" families make the effort to adopt, what we will have is the "look at me, I'm adopting, so tell me how brave and awesome I am!" folks and the child-collecting weirdos. If there were more families available, fewer kids would be crammed into a home with a dozen others.

[dianapavelovna]

10 hours ago, SoybeanQueen said:

I think what really bothers me at the end of the day is how many people will complain about these awful adoptive parents, but who are not willing to do anything to address the situation. Until more "normal" families make the effort to adopt, what we will have is the "look at me, I'm adopting, so tell me how brave and awesome I am!" folks and the child-collecting weirdos. If there were more families available, fewer kids would be crammed into a home with a dozen others.

 Thank you! I'm not an adoptive parent, but I'm a CPS adoption worker. I really agree with your last post in the thread as well. Until more families are willing to step up and adopt kids, we will continue to have kids age out or be adopted in less than ideal homes because it's better than rotting in foster care.

And I will add that choosing a family for a kid or kid (s) is HARD. I'm working on narrowing down from about 2 dozen families to three for one of my sibling groups right now, and reading this thread and the few other active ones about adoption are not making it any easier...

[TXGirlInAMaterialWorld]

Those poor kids!  The issue I see with a lot of the child-collecting fundies is that they see adoption as a "rescue service" rather than creating a family.  

When I volunteered with a pet adoption group- we were trained that if someone is only interested in "saving" the animal that is not a good sign because they usually wind up with more than they can adequately take care of.  Rescue groups routinely deal with people who have their pets living in squalor, etc and when the authorities bring it up for the owner will say, "But I SAVED them!"

I can't believe the commenters on the articles defending the parents. They should not have been able to just keep adopting more kids.  If a foster agency had to place the kids for emergency care while they found another family- that is one thing, but I just don't see how long term that situation could have ever worked out. 

I agree that more people need to get involved in being foster parents and adopting.  I think a lot the hesitation most people have is that you only hear about negative stories of adoption.  The news only reports on cases where children are abused or where the kids wind up being criminals, etc.  I wish there was a way of getting the stories out there about all the successful adoptions.  There are no guarantees that bio kids will wind up being kindergarten teachers and having a lifelong bond to their parents either.  

[SoybeanQueen]

2 hours ago, dianapavelovna said:

Until more families are willing to step up and adopt kids, we will continue to have kids age out or be adopted in less than ideal homes because it's better than rotting in foster care.

And I will add that choosing a family for a kid or kid (s) is HARD. I'm working on narrowing down from about 2 dozen families to three for one of my sibling groups right now, and reading this thread and the few other active ones about adoption are not making it any easier...

I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must be to make such a huge decision for a child. I don't doubt that Kansas has its issues when it comes to LGBT bias (though I have not seen it myself), but I wonder if, at the end of the day, there's a social worker out there crying their eyes out because they chose in favor of siblings and now it's obvious they chose wrong.

[SoybeanQueen]

2 hours ago, TXGirlInAMaterialWorld said:

  I think a lot the hesitation most people have is that you only hear about negative stories of adoption.  The news only reports on cases where children are abused or where the kids wind up being criminals, etc.  I wish there was a way of getting the stories out there about all the successful adoptions.  There are no guarantees that bio kids will wind up being kindergarten teachers and having a lifelong bond to their parents either.  

I agree. It's weird, because a lot of the people who seem to want the publicity for being adoptive parents are not really the ones who should be the spokespeople, you know? And the "normal" adoptive families just want to go on being families without being on the news or in books or all over a blog or whatever.  I'm not sure how to change that, but I agree it would help.

 

[EmmieJ]

3 hours ago, TXGirlInAMaterialWorld said:

Those poor kids!  The issue I see with a lot of the child-collecting fundies is that they see adoption as a "rescue service" rather than creating a family.  

When I volunteered with a pet adoption group- we were trained that if someone is only interested in "saving" the animal that is not a good sign because they usually wind up with more than they can adequately take care of.  Rescue groups routinely deal with people who have their pets living in squalor, etc and when the authorities bring it up for the owner will say, "But I SAVED them!"

I can't believe the commenters on the articles defending the parents. They should not have been able to just keep adopting more kids.  If a foster agency had to place the kids for emergency care while they found another family- that is one thing, but I just don't see how long term that situation could have ever worked out. 

I agree that more people need to get involved in being foster parents and adopting.  I think a lot the hesitation most people have is that you only hear about negative stories of adoption.  The news only reports on cases where children are abused or where the kids wind up being criminals, etc.  I wish there was a way of getting the stories out there about all the successful adoptions.  There are no guarantees that bio kids will wind up being kindergarten teachers and having a lifelong bond to their parents either.  

I know that one reason I've never explored fostering or adoption is my perception that I wouldn't have much chance, as a single person, and now as an older (50+) person.  Not sure if my perception is accurate though.

[grandmadugger]

Ok here are some of the latest developments in the case.  

Jonathan's ouster hearing was rescheduled for January.  He filed the following in response

Quote

Jonathan Schumm has characterized the civil case to strip him of his city councilman’s seat as “an accusation that he was overly zealous in disciplining his children.”

On Tuesday, Schumm filed an objection to suspending him from his city councilman’s post and filed answers to a petition seeking to oust him from office.

Schumm also denied repeatedly striking his 12-year-old son with a belt, lacerating an eye and a hand, then choking him with his hands and threatening to kill him. Schumm also denied committing aggravated battery or the alternative charge of abuse of a child.

Finally, Schumm denied he violated statutes involving moral turpitude or engaged in misconduct while in office. Violating statutes involving moral turpitude is one of four grounds for ousting a public official from office.

 The local paper is also trying to get the affidavit that caused the arrest.  They also had to disclose income in order to get a court appointed attorney.  They make 6250 a month.  He makes 1100 a month as an insurance salesman and she makes 500 in direct sales.  The rest of it is government subsidy.  Living wage for 2 adults, 16 kids for Topeka is 129,896 the Schumms are bring in 75,000.  Why wasn't "Can they afford the child?" a question asked before placing these kids?

[SoybeanQueen]

5 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

I know that one reason I've never explored fostering or adoption is my perception that I wouldn't have much chance, as a single person, and now as an older (50+) person.  Not sure if my perception is accurate though.

There are many, many children who would be thrilled to live in a single parent home. Some girls would prefer not to live with a male adult any more because of abuse they've suffered, for example. Age is probably not an issue. I know a lot of older foster parents, and several have adopted, as well. Definitely look into it! adoptuskids.org should have agency contacts within your state if you're in the US.

4 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

 Why wasn't "Can they afford the child?" a question asked before placing these kids?

It should have been. We had to fill out financial statements as part of our homestudy, and had to update them each time we wanted to update the homestudy, which needed to be done annually. Their tax return must be astounding. They would not be taxed on the subsidy income, so their income would just be the $1600 per month, with 16 dependents. Yeesh.

Something may have changed income-wise since their last homestudy, or someone dropped the ball. The subsidy money really shouldn't be counted as their income to qualify for a new adoption, anyway, since that money is intended for the children already in the home.

[EmmieJ]

Thank you soybean queen for your input. 

[grandmadugger]

10 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

It should have been. We had to fill out financial statements as part of our homestudy, and had to update them each time we wanted to update the homestudy, which needed to be done annually. Their tax return must be astounding. They would not be taxed on the subsidy income, so their income would just be the $1600 per month, with 16 dependents. Yeesh.

Something may have changed income-wise since their last homestudy, or someone dropped the ball. The subsidy money really shouldn't be counted as their income to qualify for a new adoption, anyway, since that money is intended for the children already in the home.

IF someone dropped the ball I hope their butts are nailed to the wall.  I know living in this area is MUCH cheaper than most parts of the country but I can't even fathom trying to feed and cloth 16 children and 2 adults on 75.000 a year.  I did find a little oddness in their financial statement though.  Each council member gets 10k per year which figures out to 833 and change a month.  So as an insurance salesperson he's only making 300 a month? Or are they not including the council payment?

[older than allosaurs]

6 hours ago, SoybeanQueen said:

I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must be to make such a huge decision for a child. I don't doubt that Kansas has its issues when it comes to LGBT bias (though I have not seen it myself), but I wonder if, at the end of the day, there's a social worker out there crying their eyes out because they chose in favor of siblings and now it's obvious they chose wrong.

I think it's got to be excruciating to make those calls, and it's inevitable that sometimes conscientious people will get it wrong with catastrophic results.

We benefited from sibling preference with one of our adoptions. The state ended up overriding their same-race preference policy and placing a child with us because we already had a half-sibling. The girls had never met, but their birthfamily advocated that they be placed together. It certainly made our birthfamily contact easier, and our girls are glad they were raised together.

But that same daughter's caseworker, who we thought was wonderful in her dealings with us, later made the call to return a preschooler to her birthmother from foster care. The mother killed the child a couple of months later.

One of my children now works as a Guardian ad Litem, representing the interests of the child for minors in the foster care system. She is realizing how often there are really no good options for children. It's not like elective surgery, or switching to a better job; children in the system need homes and care and advocates right now, not months or years later when the right situation comes along.

 

[Jeebusismycopilot]

On 12/16/2015 at 1:47 PM, dianapavelovna said:

Until more families are willing to step up and adopt kids, we will continue to have kids age out or be adopted in less than ideal homes because it's better than rotting in foster care.

We have tried to adopt here and started through the adoption process, however, we were given different excuses for not being good candidates. We have been told we don't meet the financial criteria. I teach in a small private school and he works contract for a recruitment company. We were told because we both had full time jobs, we would have to make allowances to "fit in" a child. (No sh*t Sherlock) Then they told us that because he is contract, we can't guarantee "job stability" but to be fair, can anyone really guarantee stability? At least contract wise, he's guaranteed for the year - and then they just renew his contract. It's how so many companies are going these days and it gets them out of paying benefits etc. So we can't guarantee "steady income" 

We have become quite disenchanted with the whole thing. It is frustrating for sure. We started through the foster system as well, but again because we work full time, we aren't a good fit. But when it was suggested that were willing to adapt, the problem was then "we can't be certain you can afford it"

I think that is why stories like this bother me. We have been trying to adopt, and keep getting turned down and yet here comes a family that can't afford the kids they have and they go out and adopt more, with the blessing of CPS/CAS and overload their home with 16 children and then abuse them. They openly talk about how the money they are getting for taking in the children pays off their home.  As if it is more of a financial transaction than anything else. 

 

OK stepping down off my little rant step and going out to cool off. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I am sorry to hear this @jeebusismy copilot. BTW it's the very same thing I often hear many couples say here in Italy. If I understand correctly,  in the USA there's a big difference between a state and another, I have the sensation that you probably don't live in the same state of the Schumms.

[SoybeanQueen]

On 12/17/2015 at 5:31 PM, Jeebusismycopilot said:

I think that is why stories like this bother me. We have been trying to adopt, and keep getting turned down and yet here comes a family that can't afford the kids they have and they go out and adopt more, with the blessing of CPS/CAS and overload their home with 16 children and then abuse them. They openly talk about how the money they are getting for taking in the children pays off their home.  As if it is more of a financial transaction than anything else.

Good grief, I would be angry, too, in your shoes. Granted, I'm in the same state where the family of 16 and no income was able to happen, but it was shockingly easy for us to complete a homestudy. I'm a contractor, as well, and you're right, no one ever has a guarantee. I also know several foster families where both parents work full time outside the home. How frustrating.

On 12/18/2015 at 8:35 PM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I am sorry to hear this @jeebusismy copilot. BTW it's the very same thing I often hear many couples say here in Italy. If I understand correctly,  in the USA there's a big difference between a state and another, I have the sensation that you probably don't live in the same state of the Schumms.

I think she's Canadian based on "maple syrup and poutine," but you're correct about the US system. Fifty states, fifty different processes and qualifications for foster care and adoption.

[Grimalkin]

@EmmieJ a teacher at our kid's school is a foster parent. She is a widow, never had children, and I am guessing in her sixties, maybe late fifties. She fosters a teenage boy and seems to really enjoy it. She talks a lot about going to his sporting events at the high school. 

      It can't hurt to try, you never know.

      I can see the benifits of slightly older foster parents, mainly life experience. I bet you have a lot to offer.

[sawasdee]

@Jeebusismycopilot If I were you I'd be throwing things and planning a march on CPS/CAS. Some countries/states are ridiculously lax, and others, ridiculously demanding, requiring a much, much higher standard for adopters/fosterers than most families with biological children ever attain. The saddest thing of all, is that in the former case , children end up abused in less than adequate circumstances, and in the latter, children languish in group homes and/or foster care when there are good people willing to care for them.

[Jeebusismycopilot]

I have no problem with having standards. The problem is they seem completely unattainable. It also saddens me when people who are monsters some how are able to get around the system. It has left us feeling incredibly frustrated. There are so many children who need and deserve love and attention and yet the bar is set so high that the "average" person cannot even consider adoption here. I have a couple of friends who are social workers that work within CAS and they also believe the system is broken and needs a complete overhaul. But sadly, the chances are it will never happen. Or not in our time anyway.  It just boggles the mind when the argument against goes from "you work too much" to "you don't work enough" 

[dianapavelovna]

On 12/17/2015 at 5:31 PM, Jeebusismycopilot said:

We have tried to adopt here and started through the adoption process, however, we were given different excuses for not being good candidates. We have been told we don't meet the financial criteria. I teach in a small private school and he works contract for a recruitment company. We were told because we both had full time jobs, we would have to make allowances to "fit in" a child. (No sh*t Sherlock) Then they told us that because he is contract, we can't guarantee "job stability" but to be fair, can anyone really guarantee stability? At least contract wise, he's guaranteed for the year - and then they just renew his contract. It's how so many companies are going these days and it gets them out of paying benefits etc. So we can't guarantee "steady income" 

We have become quite disenchanted with the whole thing. It is frustrating for sure. We started through the foster system as well, but again because we work full time, we aren't a good fit. But when it was suggested that were willing to adapt, the problem was then "we can't be certain you can afford it"

I think that is why stories like this bother me. We have been trying to adopt, and keep getting turned down and yet here comes a family that can't afford the kids they have and they go out and adopt more, with the blessing of CPS/CAS and overload their home with 16 children and then abuse them. They openly talk about how the money they are getting for taking in the children pays off their home.  As if it is more of a financial transaction than anything else. 

 

OK stepping down off my little rant step and going out to cool off. 

Oh man, I'm sorry for your frustration. I don't write home studies/license families myself, and of course the rules are different depending on the jurisdiction, so I'm afraid I can't much practical advice, but if adoption is something you guys feel strongly about, I encourage you to keep trying. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but one of my main job responsibilities is trying to match kids on my caseload with the most appropriate families. Two working parents might not be a good match for every kid, but it's far from a dealbreaker as far as I'm concerned. And one parent being employed on contract wouldn't bother me either, especially if the other parent brings in income. Like you said, no one's job stability is guaranteed.

And EmmieJ, I agree with soybean queen! Single parent families are a perfect match for some kids. I have an 11-year-old on my caseload right now who has specifically told me she wants to be adopted by a single mom. And age isn't going to cut you out either. 

Apologies for bumping this thread after some time...I have been neglecting FJ but wanted to reply in here!