Bergey Family - 8 kids and living in an RV

[FundieFarmer]

I didn't think she looked very happy in some of those adoption announcement photos, @sawasdee.

[sawasdee]

@FundieFarmer I really don't understand the mindset that takes that level of dissatisfaction, and packs it up in an RV! Poor South Africa, if they ever get there.

[Palimpsest]

49 minutes ago, blessalessi said:

@Palimpsest  @Pseudoname, we can also add this interesting nugget to the timeline.

Jan-March 2013, Pastor Didier of Compassion for Congo, Selina's not-an-adoption agency apparently "took a break" from the adoption scene, according to the adoption blogger that introduced him to Selina. 

http://itsamomlife.blogspot.co.uk/p/adoption-timeline.html (half way down  the timeline).  The following month Congo issued its first suspension amid fears of adoption fraud and abandonment.

The current Compassion for Congo website, has dated Pastor Didier as being in the USA raising money for an in-country Congolese orphanage during 2012, when USA adoption families claim to have been meeting him to arrange adoptions.

http://compassionforcongo.org/index.php/orphanage/13-general

Interesting organisation...

 

This stinks to high heaven.  Sounds suspiciously like Pastor Didier = Congolese version of Georgia Tann.

These (allegedly) baby trafficking Fundies really fuck things up for good people who want to adopt transnationally for the right reasons.  I wish all these countries would sign on to the Hague Convention though, and even that doesn't go far enough, IMO.  I honestly think it is better for the children to support efforts to place them with extended family or decent foster care in their country of origin.  I make exceptions for children with special needs who can benefit from medical care in more developed countries, but no-one has the "right" to adopt a child, let alone remove him or her from their culture and country of origin, just because they "have a heart for it" and want to look good for Jebus.

1 hour ago, FundieFarmer said:

EEeeeeeesh, that "Open Letter to Christian Mothers" on the cached page is...yikes. 

It's not surprising that she scrubbed her blog when she realized she had drawn our attention, is it?

As I mentioned upthread, the Fundie world, and especially the missionaries on deputation world, is small and interconnected.  The Bergeys know both the Lockwoods and the Rodriguii so it would be very surprising if someone hasn't tipped them off to the evil people of FJ.

[blessalessi]

http://travel.state.gov/content/adoptionsabroad/en/adoption-process/faqs/faq-the-universal-accreditation-act-of-2012.html

This adoption accreditation act also would have put the tin lid on Selina's plans.  It was announced in Jan 2013 to take effect the next year.  She would prob not have qualified in time, even without the DRC suspension on exit visas.

 

Pastor Didier and Judge Emery Phuna apparently  had a great deal going until their government saw sense. Some of the Congo Adoption blogs read as though they ought to be parody.  These stupid fundies wringing their hands at the terrible trafficking that goes on... and traipsing around collecting orphans abd givinv testimonies in Congolese courts as part of their mission trips.  The "orphanage" only seems to house a few kids  back in 2012 but possibly acts as an unofficial child clearing house for Jesus.

https://harphammers.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/day-6-7-in-the-drc/

https://harphammers.wordpress.com/2011/09/29/bringing-her-home-kiffanie%e2%80%99s-chapter/

http://missionaryventure.blogspot.co.uk/

Scary thought: Selina seems to be already in over her head as an adoptive parent.  I sincerely hope she and Brent are not envisioning a life of "facilitating" South African adoptions, which are an up-and-coming "thing" in parts of the adoption community.

[Palimpsest]

29 minutes ago, blessalessi said:

http://travel.state.gov/content/adoptionsabroad/en/adoption-process/faqs/faq-the-universal-accreditation-act-of-2012.html

This adoption accreditation act also would have put the tin lid on Selina's plans.  It was announced in Jan 2013 to take effect the next year.  She would prob not have qualified in time, even without the DRC suspension on exit visas.

 

Pastor Didier and Judge Emery Phuna apparently  had a great deal going until their government saw sense. Some of the Congo Adoption blogs read as though they ought to be parody.  These stupid fundies wringing their hands at the terrible trafficking that goes on... and traipsing around collecting orphans abd givinv testimonies in Congolese courts as part of their mission trips.  The "orphanage" only seems to house a few kids  back in 2012 but possibly acts as an unofficial child clearing house for Jesus.

file:///data/data/com.amazon.cloud9/app_amazon_webview/saved_pages/My%20Missionary%20Venture%20to%20the%20Democratic%20Republic%20of%20the%20Congo.mhtml

Yep, the Adoption Accreditation Act.  I wish it had passed.  I was asked to review a few drafts for general content not legalese early on.

Every single time attempts are made to legislate any Federal Adoption Reforms here they seem to get shot down by loud-mouthed sentimental dimwits.  The anti-adoption reform lobby is very strong.  There are people who don't understand the issues at all but who think that all adopters, by definition, are just wonderful people.  And children are soooo lucky to be adopted.  How dare anyone try to make it more difficult or want to propose standards and oversight!  

It pisses me off! 

[formergothardite]

Quote

Nathaniel (7) will be Daddy's travel buddy, providing he can earn/raise the needed funds for his plane ticket.

So they were making a small child try to work hard enough to raise money to buy a plane ticket? This is just one all around fucked up family. No wonder she tried to hide everything the moment she realized we were reading her blogs closely. 

[DaffyDill]

The absolute confidence of these people, the Bergeys as well as others of their ilk, that THEY know best, that Jesus is what these children need, and their almost complete disregard for the children's home culture, birth names, and even their native languages, drives me crazy.

They are so SURE in what they are doing and are egged on pathetically by their leg humpers, many of whom are doing to same thing, so none of them are ever challenged, or made to take a critical look at how their actions are or might be affecting the children. The closest they come to that is praying for guidance, and AFAIK, God is no expert on adoption.

They just blithely go upon their way, collecting more hurt and damaged children, who may need and certainly deserve more individual time and care than a SAHM of that many children can give, all because they had an idea one day that they would save all the poor children and babies of the world. 

They're self righteous and sanctimonious and they make me sick.

[Peas n carrots]

The absolute confidence of these people, the Bergeys as well as others of their ilk, that THEY know best, that Jesus is what these children need, and their almost complete disregard for the children's home culture, birth names, and even their native languages, drives me crazy.

They are so SURE in what they are doing and are egged on pathetically by their leg humpers, many of whom are doing to same thing, so none of them are ever challenged, or made to take a critical look at how their actions are or might be affecting the children. The closest they come to that is praying for guidance, and AFAIK, God is no expert on adoption.

They just blithely go upon their way, collecting more hurt and damaged children, who may need and certainly deserve more individual time and care than a SAHM of that many children can give, all because they had an idea one day that they would save all the poor children and babies of the world. 

They're self righteous and sanctimonious and they make me sick.

You said exactly what I was thinking. I really don't understand why the adoptoraptors and their supporters just donate their time or money instead to a local orphanage to care for children. I guess it just comes down to them not trusting they will get enough Jesus in that setting.

[sawasdee]

11 hours ago, DaffyDill said:

The absolute confidence of these people, the Bergeys as well as others of their ilk, that THEY know best, that Jesus is what these children need, and their almost complete disregard for the children's home culture, birth names, and even their native languages, drives me crazy.

They are so SURE in what they are doing and are egged on pathetically by their leg humpers, many of whom are doing to same thing, so none of them are ever challenged, or made to take a critical look at how their actions are or might be affecting the children. The closest they come to that is praying for guidance, and AFAIK, God is no expert on adoption.

They just blithely go upon their way, collecting more hurt and damaged children, who may need and certainly deserve more individual time and care than a SAHM of that many children can give, all because they had an idea one day that they would save all the poor children and babies of the world. 

They're self righteous and sanctimonious and they make me sick.

Yes. How do we get your and my  government  to work with the people we need to question and look at some of these adopters. Many seem to feel that "christian" is a sufficient reason to approve an adoption.Please, America, look more closely into these what are essentially christian vanity adoptions. We have already seen some tragic results.

[accountingstar]

I know that I am late to party, but I finally read Selina's An Open Letter To the Critics: What I Want You to Know About Our Family. She states that she was hurt by the comments and then she goes on that we would really like each other "if we saw each other through untainted glasses." Well Selina if we were friends I would tell you the truth. You are not prepared to become a missionary in South Africa. You do not have a business plan on how to succeed in running an orphanage in South Africa. What are your annual expenses going to be? How many children are you going to care for? Have you looked into the local regulations into setting up a new orphanage in SA? How long does it take to get Visas? Have you found a home in SA? How much is the land going to cost? Can foreigners buy land in SA? Are you going to hire staff? Are you going to take all orphans or only certain ones? What happens if your sending church drops you? Is someone in the States going to run short mission trips to your orphanage? How are you going to educate these orphans? Are you going to teach them a skill? Have you thought about registering as a charity in the US? Have you found an accountant and lawyer  in SA so you can follow local rules and regulations (aka the letter of the law). The list could go on. Then I would go on and say that you have really good intentions, but are naive about the difficultly of starting an orphanage in SA. Next, I would suggest that you look to partner with a US missionary already in SA running an orphanage. That way you are able to be successful as a missionary and fulfill your dream. I feel that going alone will not work. I don't want your family to suffer. Your children are innocent. It's a wonderful idea to help orphans. Please learn from John Shrader's mistakes. I would feel better if you and your husband obtained sometime of skill before heading over. For example, a nursing degree would be useful. You could take care of the orphans when they got sick. Africa doesn't need Americans with no skills.

From Their Little Fish Ministries Blog on February 3, 2015, "It’s hard to believe we’ve been on deputation for 18 months now! With over 40% of our support raised, we’re SO close to that elusive half-way point. Everyone tells us that it takes less time to raise the second half of support, so we are still tentatively aiming for a June 2016 departure date!" I wouldn't donate unless they had a business plan. I would also like to know how much they are raising. What is their goal? Stating this goal would be beneficial. Successful organizations in Africa state how much money they need to buy land or keep their operations going. Really think about becoming a foundation for the matching grants. I would end with a good luck.      

[blessalessi]

From a quick google, I think that they are going to be working near to other missionaries.  They are also looking for another couple and a single woman to join them. That is why I fear/ suspect that the orphanage may at some point become linked to the adoption industry.

I also find it totally weird that sending organizations operate in such a fragmented way, sending couples and individuals on 2-3 year begging trips around the country, before letting them loose on an individual basis to do as they please once they arrive in he target country.

Normal organisations would look at planning and costing out a whole project, including all the individual salaries/ living costs, plus the buildings and overhead costs for the project as a whole, over at least a 5-10 year period.

It is like the church is stuck in time, organising its mission programmes as if they are sending out two dozen Gladys Aylwards  or Father Damiens into the world, paying no heed to how much things have changed as we have moved into the 21st century.

At best the current funding model seems vaguely akin to the Scamaritan health plan, reliant on a gazillion individual families putting cash into an envelope weekly, in order for the programme to work.

[Pseudoname]

Not the Bergeys, but I found another Christian adoption ministry family that is swimming in deep koolaid.  I think that the Bergey family's education and means of an adoption ministry are probably much the same, although I don't think this family's mission is to help facilitate adoption, rather than open an orphanage.

http://www.laurachristianson.com/laura/“y’all-should-start-an-orphan-adoption-ministry”/

They attended one adoption seminar

Quote

LC: Other than attending FamilyLife’s If You Were Mine adoption seminar, did you and Tommy have any special training for staring an adoption ministry?

AP: You do not have to be a pastor or member of a church staff to start an orphan adoption ministry. Tommy and I are just plain old “pew people.” God laid a desire on our heart and we accepted the call.  I get many e-mails from people who have a desire to start an orphan adoption ministry but tell me they do not have a degree or that they are just a “stay-at-home mom.” I tell them: You do not need a degree to start this kind of ministry. What you do need is a willing heart and the courage to do it! God loves doing extraordinary things through ordinary people! 

Laura cannot fathom why anyone would not want to adopt, and works hard to convince them that it is the right thing to do

Quote

LC: What should the focus of an adoption ministry be, in your opinion?

AP: Our ministry’s focus is on getting children out of orphanages and into loving Christian homes so they can have a family to call their own, a hope and a future.  We first focused on adoption awareness, getting the word “adoption” in front of our church family, being available to couples who are thinking about adoption, supporting couples who are going through the adoption process or who have adopted. Through perseverance and prayer, we have seen couples adopt that probably would not have adopted without having the support and information this ministry has provided for them.  (bold mine)

Let's not think about what is best for the child, let's just save them all!

[laPapessaGiovanna]

http://www.hisheartfororphans.org/blog 

Aaargh n@Pseudoname you sent me Down SuCh a rabbit hole... I fear I'll need the ferrets

[Pseudoname]

@laPapessaGiovanna. I know!  There are so many child collecting adopting Fundie Christians out there!  It's not just a rabbit whole, but a huge rabbit warren, as there are so many links to each other and so, so many blogs.  I've put in a suggestion that perhaps a new sub forum might be needed to discuss them. 

[Taters]

According to https://www.bethany.org/global-services/countries/south-africa there are two US adoption agencies in South Africa. Bethany is a Christian agency Kathryn Joyce wrote about.

[blessalessi]

I cannot imagine for a minute that Selina would enjoy complying with adoption regulation (SA is a Hague Convention country, unlike DRC).  I could imagine her floating round collecting "orphans" and passing them on to an agency though. And blogging tirelessly about the availability of said "orphans" until some bad publicity forces her underground.

 

[foreign fundie]

Reading through this thread makes me realise how many questionable encounters I have had with adoption. An American family adopting a kid from another continent while living in a third continent. Or a family who adopted illegaly and had to spend years on the move until they found a country that was willing to give the kid a passport. Both of these families had many other kids who had enough challenges without all the instability these adoptions brought.  Or people who were 'called' to start an orphanage and then when it was built had to go to recruit orphans from remote villages to fill it, removing them from their poor families to give them a better life. Or a self proclaimed evangelist who picked up random street kids without knowing anything of their background and placing them in an orphanage.

Now a lot of these people think they are helping or saving children. But very often their view is extremey one-sided.

Cultural identity is a huge part of whom we are. We need to have a really good reason to remove a child from their culture and homeland. One of those reasons could be that there is no way this child can live a decent life in his home country. 'Decent' by their standards, not ours. If the child has no one to provide it's basic needs, and no one is prepared to do that even if support is offered, or the child has pressing medical needs, it may be justified to adopt.  

But still then we have to wonder what gives us the right to take this child. It belongs first of all to it's parents, then to it's wider family, then to it's community and country. It is right we can just take these children because we have more money?

There are so many underlying assumptions that are hardly ever questioned but should be reconsidered.

1. Taking a child to the West will always improve it's life.

2. Material prosperity is more important than cultural belonging. 

3. In case of infertility adoption is a logical option. If a couple can't have a child, they have a 'right' to get it from somewhere else.  

4. Adopted children should be thankful to be saved.

5. Developing countries have no right to question the suitability of American adoptive parents or to set conditions. They too should be thankful we are willing to take these kids off their hands.  

6. We can fix traumatised children by placing them in loving families.

Just a thought experiment. What if Chinese families would flock to the US to adopt white American kids and turn them into faithful little communists. How would that make us feel? Especially if we hear some of these kids are not educated or abused or used as house helps? Or if a group of uneducated muslims from Lybia would set up an orphanage in the US and would pick up kids in inner city neighbourhoods and force them to memorise q'uran for two hours a day? And put their pictures on facebook and comment on how these children are saved from a life of immorality  and crime?

Bottom line, in each individual case it should not be the needs of the adoptive parents or their saviour complex that is decisive in an adoption, but the needs of the child, and the complete lack of options to meet these needs in any other way than removing it from it's family/country. The same goes for starting orphanages. And in both cases the rights, sensitivities and laws of the country and community should be considered too. Also our prosperity does not give us the right to own lives. To be enthrusted with the life of a person is a holy privilege and responsibility. It is never a right or an act of charity. The adoptive parents should be willing to do  everything in their power to accommodate the child's needs . If they have conflictiong ambitions they should not adopt.   

[chaotic life]

There is a movement of Canadians and Europeans who adopt minority kids out of the US foster care system, fwiw.

I am of the opinion that intact homes are preferred to institutions every time. But losing one's cultural identity should be a last resort, not a first.

India actually requires that unless a child has special needs that need western medicine, they cannot even be eligible for international adoption until 3 national families have declined to adopt the child.

[DaisyD]

I'm just wondering why some psychological testing isn't done along with the home study. 

[blessalessi]

I also think there needs to be a cap on numbers or at the very least an impact assessment that considers the potential impact of the adoption on both the new and existing members of the family. So many of these "child collector" adoptive parents are not actually offering a family setting by the time they get beyond 4 or 5 children.  It becomes more like an unregulated group home or a mini-institution.

Why on earth would Selina and Brett have been considered suitable for any additional children with all the clearly documented probelms thay were experiencing with the existing adoptees?

 

[sawasdee]

@blessalessi

I think a cap on numbers should be mandatory. There is a cap on the number of foster children in most places  - why not the same for adoptees?

@daisyd681

I truly don't understand why some sort of psychological testing is not part of a home study - in fact, I had assumed it was. It would seem to be such an obvious precaution.

[DaisyD]

If a psych eval were part of it, most of these people would not have been approved. I'm talking a real one, not just a conversation. Most people can bs a conversation. I'd also be in favor of a new eval with each subsequent adoption. Kim didn't sound too bad until after the older girls came in. She went really off the rails with them.

[chaotic life]

In every state I have done home studies, and also required for international adoptions, there is a medical clearance required. In theory, mental health issues are assessed in the evaluation and any issues disclosed there or by the individual would require clearance by a mental health professional. I know before they closed, Russia had finally required a full, formal psychological evaluation of all potential adoptive parents. It's the only place I have heard of that strict of a requirement.

A home study is also supposed to interview all existing children and ask their opinions of adding to the family. I just can't imagine any child voluntarily disclosing if they weren't actually okay with it. You are asking a child to speak against their own parents, whom they are often still dependent upon.

As for family size limits, it depends on the state and the country. Formally, iirc, US immigration required you be able to maintain 135% of US poverty level counting the children you are adding. However, there are exceptions, you can count assests, and someone can co-sign for you.

Some states have absolute hard limits on family size or numbers of adoptions you can do in a lifetime. Other states have none. Most countries with family size limits will waiver those limits for special needs kids.

[blessalessi]

56 minutes ago, chaotic life said:

Some states have absolute hard limits on family size or numbers of adoptions you can do in a lifetime. Other states have none. Most countries with family size limits will waiver those limits for special needs kids.

It is in relation to special needs kids that I think there should especially be a  cap on numbers.  Most of the fundie fails seem to start with taking in a child with needs that far exceed the family's resources to cope.

I don't agree that a family is always better than an institution. So many of the adoptive saviour families seem to know jack shit about dealing with special needs and are ready to self-diagnose RAD at the drop of a hat.  It simply isn't fair to the existing kids, or the kid with additional needs that are unlikely to be met.

[sawasdee]

@chaotic life

Thanks for the clarifications. I can only be amazed that some of these adopters passed a home study, as they seem so woefully unprepared for many of the problems they encounter. And the idea that standards regarding family size should be relaxed in the case of children with special need seems absolutely counterintuitive - such children require MORE care, and consequently I would have though a smaller family infinitely preferable. Certainly a megafamily would not be my idea of a good fit!