Week 4 -liveblog of Botkin marriage webinar

[tehgoobster]

David: did we talk about fun romantic stuff? We were not doing this to have fun, we did this to discern whether we should marry. Some parts were fun, some parts were very hard, particularly when sharing sin, because of shame.

They said I love you when they got engaged. Although David found N beautiful, never paid her a complement during courtship, had to work hard not to. Did it after engagement, because they were not courting for "emotional kicks" but for serious purpose.

Why do they view romance and discernment as being mutually exclusive? How someone relates, emotionally and romantically, is a big part of compatibility, so taking that out seems like going into things somewhat blindly.

[Marian the Librarian]

Audri sounds much more confident this week. I would still like to hear a lot from Nadia.

Also, I think asking a potential suitor about mental and physical disabilities, including allergies, is a little over the top. Allergies maybe if you're having him over to eat dinner...but, really, Geoff, I think you're just a voyeur.

THIS. Bingo.

[meda]

steps to prepare sons for marriage

1 talk about discipline, duty, belief and wisdom

2. show son the battleground of their generation anf the battles they would be fighting

we ae soldiers for Christ, must make sure we are always fighting on the right side. Our view is that here is gods side, not Satan's statism, comprimise can be treason, vast divide between holy and profane, must disciple, again with the great commission. must know the law of God.

How does any of this relate to marriage?

[marmalade]

what about a recent convert (male) who has fallen into sexual sin and was not homeschooled and has only recently discovered their mistakes? Should he disclose to the father and the daughter? Is there hope for someone like that?

Geoff: yes through christ's redeeming power, but maybe don't share all the gory details with the daughter

Dish-a-ROON anyone?

[meda]

tehe...

point out to your son "strange women"

point out womens attitude of rebelion and how they have been discipled by a corrupy culture, AND WARN YOUR SONS TO STAY AWAY FROM THEM

Show them majesty of godly women

SHOW THEM THAT PATRIARCHY IS THE ONLY SYSTEM THAT HONORS WOMEN. Oy vey

the essence of biblical manhood contributes to the beauty of women

Ben and music: Geoff says he was so talented he could do anything, but he does only for glory of god. "he dominates music, it does not dominate him"

[Guest Anonymous]

Battle? Let them enlist if they want a battle. At the minimum they would get medical benefits for their families.

[Guest Anonymous]

Talk about making romance and marriage sound utterly joyless.

Also, this whole idea of not expressing any positive feelings about the woman during courthship is seriously insulting to women (surprise, surprise). Those silly women, they'll just get giddy and lose all control if you give them a compliment. Much better to keep them in line by withholding affection.

[meda]

Geoff will not stop going on about biblical womanhood. Le sigh.

Now Geoff is listing more rules for what the father should do. Geoff refers to this as "cross examination stage"

Sweet mother of god....make it stop

New question: when do you let the daughter know the boy is interested?

he answers question with a question. Ok, now he is repetaing himself, he talks to AS and E if a young man is interested in them, so he does not waste suitors time.

we are done.

[Guest Anonymous]

Is it just me but does "sharing sin" during courtship sound sexxay?

I think I would definitely use true confession time as a chance for a little bit of sexy talk. But, sadly, most courting fundie girls are probably not that subversive.

[Marian the Librarian]

These people are certifiably insane.

[tehgoobster]

We were focused on how do we serve Christ best. David struggled with this, and states that sometimes doing what Christ wants must trump what id good for a marriage.

Was he implying that while withholding emotion during courtship may be bad for a future marriage, it must be done because that's what Jesus wants? 'Cause if so, that doesn't really make much sense. If a couple is not emotionally compatible, it may cause trouble and difficulty in marriage, and wouldn't a happy, compatible couple be better able to focus on God and to serve others than a couple who was dealing with marital problems that were taking up a lot of their energy?

[marmalade]

On a totally narcissistic note, I'm now a Homeskool Hero! Perfect with my pic of Preachin' Smuggar, who can't spell "homeschool" either.

Yay!

[GenerationCedarchip]

must talk about children, birthcontrole, spanking, homeschooling what will your children wear, how will you teach them?

(I can't imagine taliking to Mr. meda about baby cloths while we were dating)

also: Geoff thinks that THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN MEN'S LIVES TODAY is the study of the Church. Apparently what a 20 year old thnks of the church is really important in a courtship.

Other topics to discuss:

money and finances are an important topic, also diet, medical preferences.

OMG: political preferences "does a wife vote as her husband tells her, does she not vote, does she follow her own conscience" this must be decided before marriage.

will a wife have a social life, will she have a role in the church? how will you spend holidays? what about traditions?

Or what? You lock her in the basement while you go to work?

[meda]

Was he implying that while withholding emotion during courtship may be bad for a future marriage, it must be done because that's what Jesus wants? 'Cause if so, that doesn't really make much sense. If a couple is not emotionally compatible, it may cause trouble and difficulty in marriage, and wouldn't a happy, compatible couple be better able to focus on God and to serve others than a couple who was dealing with marital problems that were taking up a lot of their energy?

it almost seems like any emotion expended is time taken away from "kingdom work", a marriage should just be able to function on autopilot if you follow the rules, which frees you to do more imortant stuff like establishing a theocracy and/or slaughtering holy chickens for the glory of Christ. Or something like that. All the babbling words have melted my brain and I am out of gin....

[Austin]

David: did we talk about fun romantic stuff? We were not doing this to have fun. . .

God forbid anyone have any fun. :roll:

[Marian the Librarian]

God forbid anyone have any fun. :roll:

GEOFF forbids anyone have any fun, more like...God's head is no doubt spinning when She considers the Botkins.

[MamaJunebug]

meda & sableduck, you're saints (FJ-style) to do these.

So -- any word on whether they'll recount the old folks' courtship/ marriage next time? Or, ever?

[Guest Anonymous]

Or what? You lock her in the basement while you go to work?

No kidding - what the fuck? What *healthy* alternative is there to having a social life?

[tehgoobster]

it almost seems like any emotion expended is time taken away from "kingdom work", a marriage should just be able to function on autopilot if you follow the rules, which frees you to do more imortant stuff like establishing a theocracy and/or slaughtering holy chickens for the glory of Christ. Or something like that. All the babbling words have melted my brain and I am out of gin....

If that's the case, then that's sad. It is possible to have a happy, fulfilling marriage (on many levels) and to work on your mission in life. Settling for less seems like selling yourself --and the person you're married to -- short. Why would anyone want to be in a marriage where they didn't have both? In the Bible (1 Cor. 7), Paul said that marriage was a concession and that it's better to be single, but he also said that it's "better to marry than to burn with passion." He said nothing about marrying to fulfill the dominion mandate. The fact that he used the phrase "to burn with passion" seems to indicate that he understood that many people would seek marriage foremost for companionship and intimacy, and he didn't seem to have a problem with that.

[xReems]

I'm sorry but the Botkins courtship/marriage process just sounds extremely boring. It sounds like you're filling out a job application and being interviewed by the "Boss" extensively before you get the job, which is stupid. Being in a relationship should be filled with happiness and 50 pages of notes on the other person.

I still don't understand why they were not allowed to compliment their significant other during courtship. What the hell were they gonna do? God forbid they get just a tad bit gitty--oh no, the horror of wanting to smile! Smiling before marriage is like having sex..how wrong.

Thank God my boyfriend and I do not have that kind of relationship. I'm glad we're able to joke, laugh, smile, cry, etc all before marriage. I couldn't handle something as serious as that.

No wonder why the Botkin girls haven't found somebody yet; Hell, I'm sure all these potential suitors would be bored to tears with the courtship/engagement process.

[meda]

Ok, got to check the powerpoint:

What a suitor should be able to answer-

1. Be able to articulate and defend your mission.

2. Be able to state honestly what you offer a girl in the way of a spiritual and physical estate.

3. Know your theology of the Kingdom and be able to explain how you will seek it.

4. Give an honest evaluation of your strengths and weaknesses.

5. Give evidence of the record of sanctification in your life

6. Give an account of your spiritual goals

7. Be able to comment on your position on each of these areas from a theological perspective:

i. Antithesis: the ongoing war

ii. Dominion: the mandate

iii. Theonomy:themeanstoaccomplishthevison

iv. Jurisdiction: the means to administer the Lord’s justice

v. Sovereignty: what to think about the state and the authority of God’s word

vi. Good soteriology: how to correct the errors that multiply by the year

vii. Providence: the attributes of God

viii. Patriarchy: the great target of God’s enemies

ix. Judgment: What modern nations can expect in the next 1-100 years

[meda]

And even more crazy: questions to ask a suitor and or the suitors friends and family

1. In what capacity or relationship have you known him? His family? 2. How long have you known him? 3. Would you say you know him well enough to share some observations about his character, personality, strengths and weaknesses?

Spiritual Life

4. Would you describe what you know about his

salvation and walk with God?

a. Evidence of salvation. (What makes you believe he is born again?) b. Theological beliefs. (Does he have any unusual or unorthodox beliefs?) c. Personal character. (Where is he in character development?) d. Lifestyle practices. (What do you see in his life that may be inconsistent with Scripture?) e. Faithfulness in church leadershp f. Prayer and Bible study. (What have you observed in these areas?) g. Personal witnessing. (Does he share the Gospel faithfully?) h. Spiritual ministries. (How does he exercise his spiritual gifts?) i. Spiritual strengths. (What are his one or two areas of greatest strength?) j. Spiritual weaknesses. (What are his one or two areas of greatest weakness?)

5. Would you describe what you know about his father's salvation and walk with God? (Use the same questions as in Question 4, but now in reference to the father.)

6. Would you describe for me what you know about his mother's salvation and walk with God? (Use the same questions as in Question 4, but now in reference to the mother.)

His Relationships

7. Can you describe his relationship with his father? Is it honoring? Is it obedient? 8. Can you describe his relationship with his mother? Is it honoring? Is it obedient?

9. Can you describe his relationship with his siblings? Is it harmonious? 10. Can you describe his relationship with his grandparents? Is it caring?

11. Can you describe his relationship with his friends? Doe he tend to be peer influenced?

12. Is he consistently faithful in fulfilling his commitments? Explain. 13. Has he shown a regular willingness to serve others? In what ways? 14. In what ways is self-centeredness expressed in his life? 15. How does he relate to authority in his life? 16. In what ways is he ever controlling or manipulative of others?

17. Have you ever seen or heard of him being unkind to others? 18. What kinds of situations cause him frustration? How does he respond?

19. What circumstances might make him impatient or angry? How does he handle them? 20. As far as you know, has he ever been violent (or even yelling)?

21. How does he deal with a broken relationship? Does he have any now that you know of?

Personal Habits Affecting Marriage

22. What is his practice regarding eating/food? Is his eating disciplined in choosing what to eat and how much? Do you know of any food oddities? 23. What is his practice regarding money? What are his habits regarding spending and giving? Do you think he would be controlling with money?

24. What is his discipline toward possessions? Is he very orderly? Does he ever seem materialistic? 25. What are his habits regarding work? Does he have a high standard of excellence? Does he ever tend to be slothful or a workaholic?

26. What is his discipline in studying? Does he read regularly, and if so, what? 27. What are his habits regarding sleeping? Is he lethargic? Are his sleep habits irregular?

28. What is his discipline with time? Does he follow a regular schedule? Is he productive? 29. What is his practice regarding personal devotions? 30. What is his level of personal cleanliness and hygiene?

31. Does he have any personal habits that might annoy others?

Marital Roles

32. What do you know of his beliefs about courtship and betrothal? 33. Does he tend to be more of a leader or follower in life? 34. As far as you can tell, how does he go about making major decisions?

35. In making decisions, what role does God's Word play? Is he selfless in decision making? 36. What is his attitude toward women? Is it respectful? Does he see them as possessions?

37. What is his view on the proper role of a wife? Is she to be his partner/companion or his slave? Is she to work outside the home?

38. What do you know of his views on divorce and remarriage? 37. What do you think he is looking for most in a wife? 39. How well do think he would provide for a wife and family? 40. How well do think he would protect his wife and family? 41. How do you think he will relate to his parents (and in-laws) after he is married? Do you see any potential for either rejection or dependency (apron strings)?

42. What has been his prior experience with dating and romance? 43. How does he relate to children? Is he affectionate toward them? Does he become irritated with them or ignore them?

44. What do you know of his views on child training, including corporal punishment? 45. Are you aware of his views on home schooling? 46. When he fails, does he accept personal responsibility, repent, ask forgiveness, and change? 47. Does he ever slant the truth for his own benefit? 48. In what ways do you think he may need to grow before marriage?

Moral Standards

49. What are his standards of propriety in dress? How does he dress? 50. Have you ever heard or known of any offensive language from him?

51. What are his standards regarding TV, movies, literature, music? 52. Do you think he would ever watch an R-rated movie? PG- rated?

53. Are you aware of any pornography in his past? 54. Are you aware of any alcohol, drugs or tobacco use in his past? 55. Do you know of any financial debts he has? 56. As far as you know, has he ever been in trouble with the law?

Miscellaneous

57. What is his attitude toward pets? Love 'em, leave 'em, sleep with 'em? 58. What are his political leanings? 59. What is his general attitude toward civil government?

60. From your observations, what are his interests, hobbies, talents? 61. What do you think he most highly values in life? What next? 62. Have you ever seen or heard of him spending money foolishly? 63. What two or three things does he tend to do in his spare time?

64. As far as you know, does he have any physical or mental disabilities or diseases? Any allergies? Prior or current health problems? 65. When growing up, what temptations or weaknesses did he exhibit?

66. What tendencies does he have toward intolerance, prejudice or racism? 67. What is his involvement in sports? Does he participate, attend games, watch it on TV? To what extent?

68. Recognizing we are all imperfect, in what one or two areas do you think God wants him to improve most? 69. From your experience, does he have a teachable spirit? 70. If your daughter/son were marrying this person, what cautions would you have?

Additional Questions for the Potential Candidate (added to those above):

71. What do you understand to be the Gospel? Please tell me about your salvation and walk with God. 72. What do you understand to be the role of baptism? Lord's Supper? 73. What do you understand to be God's purposes/priorities for the church?

74. What is your view of the Sabbath and the proper use of that day? 75. What is the present day application of the Mosaic Law? 76. What do you see as the man's role in the local church? Your own role?

77. What do you see as your wife's role in local church ministry? 78. How do you view age-segregation in the church (youth groups, Sunday school)?

79. What is your view on the celebration of Sacred Days (Christmas, Easter)? 80. What is your view of house churches? 81. Can you describe your life purpose, i.e., how you intend to use your interests, experiences, skills, and talents to serve and glorify God?

82. What role would your wife and children play in your life purpose? 83. What role would your job/career play in your life purpose? 84. What are your income producing (vocational) skills?

85. What is your attitude toward family (home) business?

86. What are your views on birth control and abortion? 87. What is your attitude toward adopting children? 88. What are your thoughts on alternative medicine? Vegetarianism?

89. What is the role of psychology in the life of a Christian? 90. Do you prefer to live in the city, suburbs, town, country, farm, seaside, mountains, desert?

91. Describe a typical week day in your life from start to finish. 92. Describe a typical Saturday in your life from start to finish.

[Austin]

Those two young Botkin women just need to throw in the towel right now. If their whole goal in life is to get married, I srsly am not givingt them great odds.

What sort of self-respecting man would submit to that crap, especially from the pretentious ass that we all know as Daddy Botkin?

[Joykins]

The FBI background check people are nothing compared to Pa Botkin.

[liltwinstar]

Wow, that's quite the list. Sounds like a background or reference check.

It seems that they're trying to replace actually getting to know someone with a bunch of questions...and that's silly. I mean, if you have to ask your intended's friends about his showering and dressing habits, that's not a good sign!!!

There is *so much* of that list that can just be discovered by getting to know someone organically (like if you ask you date - "hey, what do you want on your pizza?" and the answer is "Meat. Lots of meat" - well, you have your answer to the vegan/vegetarian question right there). If you spend time with someone you're going to eventually discover his/her habits regarding money, religious beliefs, music, etc etc.

Also, people don't have to believe *exactly* the same things in order to have a happy marriage. I'm a lot more politically liberal than my husband, for example, and we get along just fine. He likes meat (a lot) and would happily eat steak for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and I try to plan vegetarian dinners for us at least once a week. We have different views of religion. He reads sci-fi and plays video games; I read mysteries and classics and knit. And on and on.

What makes a relationship work (on a nuts-and-bolts level, not an attraction/love level) is being able to work together - common goals, mutual respect, being willing to see where the other is coming from, etc. Not just being clones of each other, because that would be boring. I mean, if you agree on absolutely everything, what are you doing to talk about at the dinner table? "That movie was good, wasn't it?" "Yes dear." "Pot roast is my favorite meal" "Mine too" etc etc until one would die of boredom.