Week 4 -liveblog of Botkin marriage webinar

[meda]

Happy Labor Day everyone! relax and grab a cocktail ( I've had several) and get ready for Week 4 of how to have no fun at all while courting and getting married.

So far, we have heard David and Nadia's exhastive interview process, complete with David's headaches; induced of course by his strenous efforts to guard Nadia's heart by displaying no tender emotion at all towards his intended. We have also been treated to Ben and Audri's long distance courtship, which was marked by a desperate struggle against love and lust. I believe Ben's artistic temperment and greater exposure to de ebil hollywood may be to blame. Tonight will be a real treat: the story of Geoff and Victoria's "courtship", the crazy that started it all.

[meda]

first question: what are the appropriate questions to ask a daughter's suitor?

Fathers need to know what are prompting young men to approach you as a father about your daughter? "is a young man simply their to steal the affections of your daughter and steal her away from the family? or is he trying to court the will of God?" way to make the poor boy sound like a deviant

[gustava]

I'm going for door #2!!!! With gin.

[meda]

Why are you evaluating a suitor?

To fulfull a duty of protection to the godly institutions of family and church,

fulfill duty to daughter

fulfill the duty of multigenerational faithfulness

It is not biblical for fathers to neglect the duties of protection and preperation, you must know your daughter, she will not marry a mature man if you don'y prepare her.

BUT do not provoke or exasperate your children, do not waste her time, or suitors.

[meda]

4 principles

1. honor the principle that couples must be equally yoked (we are a chosen race, a holy priesthood, a people of his own posession so you may proclaim his excellence, so cannot marry an unbeliever, light cannot speak to dark, cannot intermarry with scorners) wow

2. honor the young suitor and his time

3. honor the principle that the wife must joyfully submit to, follow, and help her husband

4. be a disciplemaker

[meda]

he is quoting Numbers 30: the bit about women cannot enter contracts, so ask the young man everything you can about hinself, his gifts, talents, plans, know everything about the suitor, BEFORE YOUR DAUGHTER EVER TALKS TO HIM. WTF????

[meda]

QUESTION FROM MARRIED COUPLE:

what should you do if you are a couple who is asking these questions after marriage and finding out things about the spouse that shocks and hurts each other?

answer: dont date before marriage (not helpful)

[meda]

what about a recent convert (male) who has fallen into sexual sin and was not homeschooled and has only recently discovered their mistakes? Should he disclose to the father and the daughter? Is there hope for someone like that?

Geoff: yes through christ's redeeming power, but maybe don't share all the gory details with the daughter

[tehgoobster]

QUESTION FROM MARRIED COUPLE:

what should you do if you are a couple who is asking these questions after marriage and finding out things about the spouse that shocks and hurts each other?

answer: dont date before marriage (not helpful)

I have a better idea: discuss stuff like that before you get married. Dating before marriage has nothing to do with it.

[meda]

OK, what do you need to know about a boy:

reason for choosing the girl

theology

family heritage, legacy

his preperation

Issues of manhood (sounds like a personal problem)

track record on sactification

record on spiritual leadership

vision: short and longterm

compatability

bride price (yes kids, he said it, but he means the spiritual or physical capital the young man brings to the marriage)

timing (insert tasteless joke here)

[meda]

Ok, what should a suitor be able to discuss:

articulate and defend your mission

be able to stae honestly what you offer agirl in the whay o a spiritual and physical estate

Know your theology of the kingdom and be able to explain how you will seek it

evaluate strengths and weaknesses

give evidence of your salvation & discuss it's theology

ok cant type fast enough to keep up with the power points.

also, Geoff wants his sones to know,

antithesis, dominion, theonomy juristiction, sovereignty, patriarchy, salvation, doctrine etc.

[Guest Anonymous]

Wow! Thanks for doing this.

[meda]

must talk about children, birthcontrole, spanking, homeschooling what will your children wear, how will you teach them?

(I can't imagine taliking to Mr. meda about baby cloths while we were dating)

also: Geoff thinks that THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN MEN'S LIVES TODAY is the study of the Church. Apparently what a 20 year old thnks of the church is really important in a courtship.

Other topics to discuss:

money and finances are an important topic, also diet, medical preferences.

OMG: political preferences "does a wife vote as her husband tells her, does she not vote, does she follow her own conscience" this must be decided before marriage.

will a wife have a social life, will she have a role in the church? how will you spend holidays? what about traditions?

[meda]

they are posting dozens of questions to ask a young man, among them would he ever watch an R rated movie? any allergies? however, you shoul dnot be officious when you ask these questions, but be loving about it?

huh?

not enough to be against abortion, must be able to give a scriptural answer.

[sableduck]

Audri sounds much more confident this week. I would still like to hear a lot from Nadia.

Also, I think asking a potential suitor about mental and physical disabilities, including allergies, is a little over the top. Allergies maybe if you're having him over to eat dinner...but, really, Geoff, I think you're just a voyeur.

[meda]

Ok, boys are rambling about what is a dealbreaker.

now Victoria: the most important thing to know about someone is whetehr this person is willing to conform their life and beliefs to scripture, or will they follow their own desires? because people change and grow, the important thing is if 2 people have a similar desire to conform to God's worb.

Nadia now: what were the most revealing to her: do I se in David the fruit of regeneration? God has promised to bless certain things, does David have that blessed character?

Watching David under pressure and around other people was very revealing and reassuring, talking to david's family was important and very helpful.

Beyond the answers to the questions, the way David answered them was revealing. Watching his responses, how does he respond to seeing the work of Christ in others? Does he care about the honor of Christ? It was tellong to watch the news and discuss current events because it helped Nadia see how he responds to man's sin. Also, does he hate sin and the degredation of women. Nadia seems very, very intense. i wonder if her father's behaviour has made her very intolerant of human frailty.

very Calvinist idea: how can I discern if God has blessed our union? (is this the predestination thing?)

[kaetrin]

So much of this is based on the presumption that emotions are evil and will inevitably lead you to make bad decisions... it's easy to make fun of the nonsense that results but if you really believe that (like I did for the longest time - it's not just a fundie assumption but they definitely take it the farthest and codify it into their system the most), it really does force you to establish these bizarre rationales for relationships. My fundie days predate VF but Lindvall/Gothard are just as crazy on the subject.

When I was a fundie teen, I remember thinking that, since I wasn't allowed to have any emotional attachment, I was obligated to consider any young man who could qualify on all required moral and theological points, even if I didn't particularly like him. I actually entered a courtship on this assumption and it didn't go well. We broke it off but with lots of hurt feelings on both sides.

Even with all my understanding of how they get to this point of insanity, I don't understand why they can't provide a list of questions for the daughter to do her own vetting on issues of greater intimacy, even if they want the father to do the initial screening. Even in my fundie days that was strange to me... since I was the one who would have to marry and communicate with the guy in the future. I don't think anyone says that one should rush into a serious relationship without discussing the issues that matter to you -- but part of it is actually figuring out what you can live with and what really is a dealbreaker, and that might change over time and for each individual. A static checklist of theological points does not guarantee the relationship, because people aren't static.

Also, the only people who are going to submit themselves to this paternal grilling are the ones who have good intentions and/or have already bought into the system pretty considerably (in which case they don't have to worry so much - let them talk to the daughters!) or the ones who know how to play the game so well that all the chaperoning in the world won't show them up until they have what they want (e.g. Autumn's situation). In both cases, the vaunted "protections" of the system don't actually do squat.

Sorry if this is incoherent; I'm a little tipsy and courtship stuff really sets me off. :) Thanks for the liveblog, meda!

[sableduck]

OMG. I wonder if they are as boring in real life as they are on this webinar.

[tehgoobster]

meda and sableduck, what have they said about emotions/emotional purity so far? That's what baffles me the most about the courtship movement. From what you wrote, it seemed like they were implying that emotion was okay last week, but then David said that he was careful not to show emotion, and that seems kind of contradictory.

[meda]

David: practical topics we talked about:

what is your theology of war? are you valuing each others hermanudics (sp)

what David wanted in a wife, what I thought being my wife would look like, Also, what david thought he would be as a husband

what was going on in the chuch, what needed to be reformed in the modern church

the persecution of christians around the world, and the wisdom of being involved in helping Christions (they discussed if David should go to Burma to help Christiand there)

a big issue for Nadia is her hatred of idolatry

qualifications for elders

family history

which cultural influences are important? which would influence the kids?

David: did we talk about fun romantic stuff? We were not doing this to have fun, we did this to discern whether we should marry. Some parts were fun, some parts were very hard, particularly when sharing sin, because of shame.

They said I love you when they got engaged. Although David found N beautiful, never paid her a complement during courtship, had to work hard not to. Did it after engagement, because they were not courting for "emotional kicks" but for serious purpose.

[meda]

David: in March when we spoke for 14 hours was one of the best days of my life. Awwww

[Deleted05]

Ok, boys are rambling about what is a dealbreaker.

now Victoria: the most important thing to know about someone is whetehr this person is willing to conform their life and beliefs to scripture, or will they follow their own desires? because people change and grow, the important thing is if 2 people have a similar desire to conform to God's worb.

Nadia now: what were the most revealing to her: do I se in David the fruit of regeneration? God has promised to bless certain things, does David have that blessed character?

Watching David under pressure and around other people was very revealing and reassuring, talking to david's family was important and very helpful.

Beyond the answers to the questions, the way David answered them was revealing. Watching his responses, how does he respond to seeing the work of Christ in others? Does he care about the honor of Christ? It was tellong to watch the news and discuss current events because it helped Nadia see how he responds to man's sin. Also, does he hate sin and the degredation of women. Nadia seems very, very intense. i wonder if her father's behaviour has made her very intolerant of human frailty.

very Calvinist idea: how can I discern if God has blessed our union? (is this the predestination thing?)

I'm dying to know what they consider to be the degradation of women.

[meda]

I dont think we ae getting to the Geoff and vicky story.

nadia onn romance and emotional purity:

It is easy for a woman to get carried away with feelings when she knows a man is interested in her, this is bab becasue it can remove your ability t discern if the marriage id for gods glory and will bear fruit. Point of courtship is not "he likes me" but to figure out marriage.

David: I thought Nadia was one of the best women in the world when we started, my opinion has been revised...slightly.

if you are doing this for physical or emotional satisfaction, not good. Nadia and I did a good job of guarding our emotions during this process. We were focused on how do we serve Christ best. David struggled with this, and states that sometimes doing what Christ wants must trump what id good for a marriage. Mentioned going to Burma again, "hiking around trails and having the gov shoot at you is not fun"

[meda]

Geoff: principle to discuss early in marriage

Eastates can and must glorify god and take dominion

marriages unit dynasties

Children must know who is worhty of estaeme in a mate

men and women are complementary

Bride and groom prospere when there is unity of purpose

and more pretention...

[Guest Anonymous]

Degradation of women = women wearing shorts

Also, does he watch R movies? WTF?