Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[lascuba]

Re: the bolded. I've noticed that in all the statements I've read about this - like the Alexanders, the Duggars themselves - nobody mentions being angry. It's all "we're heartbroken." "We are grieving." "We are saddened." Why is nobody ANGRY?? Anger is an appropriate emotion. Jesus became angry at hypocrites. These people should be blood-boiling angry at what Josh has done to taint their faith and the reputation of their cause for Christ, which I thought they believed was the most important thing in their world.

To me, it shows that their love and loyalty to Christ and his teachings are not all that important to them if they cannot muster up some good decent anger at someone who has so poisoned it for the world. I guess we all know the Duggars are more concerned about their own name than the name of Christ and their leg humpers are more concerned with losing their favorite show than losing the chance to show Christianity in a more positive light.

I was just thinking that Anna especially strikes me as the type to be furious more than anything about this. Sad and heartbroken too, of course, but the predominant emotion would be anger. I'm probably in the minority on this, but while Anna is intellectually stupid I do think there's a strong personality behind her on-camera insipidness. When we get candid moments from her I see someone who has strong opinions that aren't just parrotted from other sources. It could be she keeps a lot of it on lockdown for the sake of being the good fundie wife, but at the end of the day I don't see her as someone who would just cry and pray about this. Anyone saw the move Saved? I imagine Anna is a lot like Mandy Moore's character. An obnoxious asshole who rubs her perfect Christianity in people's faces, and when her "piousness" fails to get her the things she believes she deserves, she starts throwing Bibles and damaging property. :lol: Here's hoping anyway, because while I don't doubt that she'll stand by her man regardless, I'd like to think that she'll make him suffer for a good, long while.

[Growelly]

Very obvious by the fact he mentioned sex eleventy times during the honeymoon episode. I nearly died when he did the HM house tour and said 'and that's where the magic happens'. Seemed like an immature little boy gloating about touching boobs for the first time.

And there was an open Bible on the bed when he said that, too. Pretty symbolic of the relationship, I think.

[lizzybee]

Thanks a lot for your thoughts; all sound reasonable. But to NOT use porn and satan is just soo unusual for the Duggars. Maybe it´s not Josh who was behind the editing but e.g. Jana? We will never know. But maybe someone at the Duggars got the idea of Josh really beeing responsible. Not satan, not the porn industriy, not an agenda against christians, not Anna faling as a wive- just Josh. This would be an actuall big step for this Person.

I kind of had a similar thought when I first read "I'm the biggest hypocrite ever." It struck an odd note with me because it didn't sound like Duggar-speak. What's the likelihood that it wasn't entirely written by Josh?

[physicalscience]

If Josh wants sex with no babies, he should take matters into his own hands....OR he could insist on using condoms or get a vasectomy.

... yeah, just like the girls could just go away to college or get real jobs, right? The solution looks easy to us, but they're in the type of environment where simple solutions aren't even options. Hell, instead of being honest with Anna about his desires, he sought out RANDOM STRANGERS online.

[lizzybee]

It's bizarre how they still don't get that the internets are forever and that the altering of statements is going to cause more intrigue.

Michelle did it with her "Dear Jubilee" letter, after she forgot to include her prior miscarriage in her tally of children.

I think they were trying to give themselves a soft run on the statement thing (their logic not mine). Because they didn't post it on anything but their website at first. It wasn't until they had it "perfected" that they stuck it up on Facebook.

ALSO:

*P.S.A.* Jill and Derrick just broke their social media radio silence...to tell you to go watch their church services via Instagram "SEX TODAY." Hmm maybe I'll tune in to see what is said if they're touting it for us to watch. :shock:

[lascuba]

I kind of had a similar thought when I first read "I'm the biggest hypocrite ever." It struck an odd note with me because it didn't sound like Duggar-speak. What's the likelihood that it wasn't entirely written by Josh?

It's not "official" Duggar speak but the phrasing is a bit...juvenile, maybe? The "biggest" and "ever" makes it a very unpolished statement I can see one of the uneducated Duggars writing that left to their own devices.

[lizzybee]

It's not "official" Duggar speak but the phrasing is a bit...juvenile, maybe? The "biggest" and "ever" makes it a very unpolished statement I can see one of the uneducated Duggars writing that left to their own devices.

True. Maybe they were just like "you did this, you explain it." If that's the case, it's clear Josh isn't as uniquely bright as he seems to believe he is... :naughty:

[Dandruff]

True. Maybe they were just like "you did this, you explain it." If that's the case, it's clear Josh isn't as uniquely bright as he seems to believe he is... :naughty:

Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but the changes could have been calculated. Initially he blamed porn, then he blamed himself. Those who want to believe he was seduced by porn/Satan can, and those who want to believe he was taking responsibility can.

I think Mike Keller is having meaningful conversations - with Jim Bob. I'd bet Anna is getting some sympathy, but it's Mike and Jim Bob who are discussing the marriage.

[tcach]

Do we have any examples of Josh admitting to wrongdoing before he is caught? (I'm cynical but I really do not believe he went to his parents before they had an inkling.) I would think that he is something other than a narcissistic sociopath if he had mentioned the OKC account, twitter, FB as well as the fact that he stole someone else's image to pass off as his own before the internet sleuths discovered them.

Although the fictional accounts do give us an interesting view on who he thinks he is or wishes he was.

[jqlgoblue]

I was just thinking that Anna especially strikes me as the type to be furious more than anything about this. Sad and heartbroken too, of course, but the predominant emotion would be anger. I'm probably in the minority on this, but while Anna is intellectually stupid I do think there's a strong personality behind her on-camera insipidness. When we get candid moments from her I see someone who has strong opinions that aren't just parrotted from other sources. It could be she keeps a lot of it on lockdown for the sake of being the good fundie wife, but at the end of the day I don't see her as someone who would just cry and pray about this. Anyone saw the move Saved? I imagine Anna is a lot like Mandy Moore's character. An obnoxious asshole who rubs her perfect Christianity in people's faces, and when her "piousness" fails to get her the things she believes she deserves, she starts throwing Bibles and damaging property. :lol: Here's hoping anyway, because while I don't doubt that she'll stand by her man regardless, I'd like to think that she'll make him suffer for a good, long while.

Hmm, I don't know. While I see the strong opinions you mention, there is a dichotomy to her. She will be very clear about how certain things "should be", and not always super fundie things IIRC but I suspect her strong opinion here is that wives should be submissive (at least sexually), she is Josh's helpmeet and she failed him.

As for the whole not understanding why Gothardism doesn't allow people to be angry, I'd argue our secular culture today doesn't really allow people to be upset or angry today. Agreed though that it is not healthy.

[DaisyD]

Holy crap people. When I started reading this, it was on page 16 of the first iteration. You all moved so fast that I fell out half way through the third without ever reaching the end. :lol:

I think this may finally get my SIL to stfu about bringing back the show, so that's good.

Random thoughts over the last few days...

Josh and Anna are adults and totally responsible for their own actions in this marriage and in the future. Part of growing up is reconciling your upbringing with your own reality.

Josh and Anna were both intentionally kept immature by their parents, so they are way behind the curve on my previous statement.

A marriage can survive infidelity. The person who committed it does not get to decide how they are held accountable. The person wronged does have to be able to move on. It can't be brought up every time there's an argument about anything. They have to truly forgive. Otherwise the marriage will just circle the drain until it fails.

Anna will not be allowed the space to come to any of that on her own, and Josh will not repent in his heart. The drain circle goes around...

Something snapped in these people when they had that miscarriage. That is sad. They still need to go away.

No more mental images. I'm begging.

It's obvious that many fundies and their humpers read here. They react to things we say in their writing.

I had fallen down the polygamy hole on tumbler when all of this broke. I have been totally creeper out at the similarities of speech between the Duggars (and others that we follow) and Warren Jeffs. It's a slippery slope people.

Now off to find out why people are saying Josiah asked for phone sex...

[Analytica49]

I'm not sure what you're getting at with wondering if there is a correlation to Josiah attending Alert and his courtship. If the implication is he had some similar issues there is zero reason to think that's the case.

I think Smuggar is awful, but it's not fair to suspect anything nepharious about his brothers because of what he did. This seems close to speculating about the sexual activity of kids (or kidults) who still live at home with their parents. The rule against that is because that kind of speculation can be really harmful to them.

And if you mean coming after him physically I can't even imagine that. This is the Duggars, not the Black Donnelleys. Brawlers they're not, Duggars dont hit anyone big enough to hit back. :snooty:

Edited to remove stowaway apostrophe.

Wow; sorry--This makes me realize how unclear I was.

First, I was not trying to speculate about Josiah' sexual activity. I was simply wondering whether (since Smuggar thought Josiah would be the next to court), Jim-Boob and Me-chelle felt the need to send Josiah for some strict military training as a way of getting him ready for the rigours of courtship--teaching him self-control, reminding him to be a Godly male, etc.

Second, when I said "the brothers coming after Smuggar," I meant "coming after" in the sense of their birth order. In no way was I suggesting they would attack him physically! I was simply suggesting that how Smuggar has lived his life may affect how the next few brothers live their lives--whether through their parents' choices or their own.

[lizzybee]

Okay so I tuned in to the Cross Church service as per Jerrick's dual instagram posts. It's all about sexual immorality and Ashley Madison. I took notes (poorly and sometimes in short hand)

Cross Church

*Bad singing guy’s microphone is louder than everyone else's*

*Baptisms*

*Back to singing*

Unique weather, maybe raining, “turn and say good morning.â€

Need church more than ever before

Engage in church

Create generation who still believes in priority of the Lord’s day

Much is happening, engage with a moment of prayer

remind and thank you to those committed to giving financially

trusting the lord to get “our goalâ€

15 weeks summer program of giving

Pray because so much happening

Doug Layman’s gonna lead us in prayer

thinking of various seasons - winter, spring, summer, fall

generation experiences those seasons, people in different places

ministry through worship, appropriate season

“we are going to join Doug in agreement in prayer"

*Doug leads us in prayer*

Church sings “Forever†- music is difficult to listen to *cringe* *cringe*

American especially sexual revolution racing out of control, no end

altering mindsets

undermining family

influencing culture

mockery to biblical truth

do you believe that sex is a big deal in today’s world

sex or lack of it, top reasons why ppl leave marriage/divorce

second cause to the first cause which is money

get money and sex right like God says and increasing chances relating to future in God’s marriage

50% first marriages end in divorce

stats show 60-67% people in second marriage get divorce, 70-73% third marriage end in divorce

regardless of where you are, you can’t do anything about past, everything about present.

resolve to do it God’s way

God’s way right way

40% marriages wife or husband admit to being unfaithful physically or emotionally

percentages of people who have affair if they knew they wouldn’t get caught

only 30% of marriage where affair discovered make it

jesus said if a man looks at a woman lustfully, adultery

Ashley madison hack reference - unique users affair mentality - nothing secret now or will it ever be

two years is the average length of a sexual affair

cohabitant before marriage 2/3, 1/2 will marry - think they'll test it out to ensure.

divorce rate goes up for that

no advantage to cohabitation

teenage and young adult sexual practices

experienced beyond imagination - not going there because not wise setting

youth pastors authority with wisdom

LGBT generation/community dominating media

UCLA williams inst 2011 3.8% or 9 million, interestingly dom setting pol agenda

gender identity - subtle attempt, no longer subtle to blur lines b/t male and fem

conscience effort

you can’t blur what God says is clear

created in image of God - special

anything that deviates won’t lead you to complete fulfillment

gender fluidity - sexuality is fluid, flip flop, man/woman whatever the day is

quotes himself - “gender is not fluid†god created you to be who you are - male or female - god doesn’t make mistakes

article came out that lesbian teens more likely to get pregnant than straight teens - bisexuality in teenage society

we are in a sexual epidemic in this country

Dr. Akin, [sex is a good gift form a great god.. handled with care.] “God on Sexâ€

People hurting, thing to find hope in different ways

Purpose of series not make you guilty, but to equip every one of you to have christian world view

watch news/read article learn to think biblically so conscience doesn’t become numb and start thinking like that

may the lord give parents grace in this hour

1 cor 6:9-11 passage of hope

“don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit god’s kingdom…†v11 “and some of you used to be like this, but you were washed, you were sanctified in the name of the lord jesus christ in the spirit of our god.â€

doesn’t matter what you’ve been through you have hope through the gospel

redeeming blood

you have been washed in the power of his blood

begin where we have to begin, talk about what is right and what is wrong

stay straight to the bible today, personal out of it

prov 5 and 1 cor 7

prov 5:18-23 “let your fountain be blessed, take pleasure in the wife of your youth…â€

1 cor 7:1-5 “it is good for a man not to have relations with a woman outside of marriage bonds…â€

none is this is new today - look at first century world

woman and man don’t have control of their own body - can’t deny each other sexually

What is right?

Five things, what is right about sexuality

first 3 as directives to the husbands

second 2 come as directives to both husband and wife

no married, no relevance - but it is, he will show you

when your wife is your pleasure, then sex is right.

when your wife’s body satisfies you (goes on an on about the soft, tenderness of woman’s breasts - "let your wife’s breast intoxicate youâ€) *ladies be wise in your dress publicly - because men like breasts. don’t be the object of men and their lust because you don’t know how to dress (screams inwardly, husband growls in frustration next to me) *gets fire extinguisher to put out feminist card that has burst into flames* :pull-hair:

sex is good when you are lost in her love forever “so lost in her love you don’t walk straightâ€

sex is right when both husband and wife are each fulfilling marital responsibility 1 cor 7:3-4 “total surrender†“don’t hold back from your spouse sexually.†“ladies: your body surrendered to him, his body surrendered to you†“couple that is not active with each other sexually is heading for problemsâ€

sex is right when you’re not negligent of your spouse. “don’t defraud your spouse sexually†(i don’t know what he means with this)

God tells you to be active in sex with spouse because you are open to attack of the enemy and that enemy is going to take your spouse away from you

male and female will have needs met by someone, somewhere, somehow

sex is to be experience and enjoyed ONLY in marriage

sex is wrong when it is not with your spouse/within your marriage “liberty inside the marriageâ€

sex is wrong when it’s outside the marriage “sexual immorality†(pornographic) proverbs 5 “why my son would you be infatuatedâ€

homosexuality and lesbianism, incest, pornography, cohabitation is wrong,

“what if i can’t control myself?â€

“dont i have the right to be happy?†absolutely be happy in the lord and within the parameters of biblical marriage

dont idolize yourself, your independence of autonomy or your happiness - devoted to god including your human sexuality

no exemption if you follow the lord - high accountability

trapped in immorality - that is what sin does, but God says there is a way

numbers of people exposed due to the hacking of that website

trauma that families will experience and the trauma of those to come

follow a perfect god no matter where you fall in the sexual immorality (teen, young adult, you married, married 50+ years

average age on that website 46 years of age

great news is that jesus has come that you might have life

jesus is the perfect savior

1 cor 6 - all of us can be washed “such were some of you†perhaps all where not guilty of those sins but we were guilty of other sin

don’t look pious nose down at the world or other struggling christians, be their encouragement, don’t beat them while they’re down

it wasn’t sexual immorality or how you treat people that sends people to hell, the only thing that sends people to hell is unbelief.

Jesus can wash us and sanctify us and set us apart to a different way of living.

We must be the generation that stands counter-cultural to stand in the love of God, washed

reflect upon that washing and practice being sanctified

embrace the grace of God.

*does an invitation/altar call*

*join the Cross Church family*

*bad singing guy with loudest microphone sings “Lord, I Need Youâ€*

*Now the pastor is getting in on the bad singing*

*Thanks everyone for coming*

-Guy comes on stage to remind people to watch “War Room†movie

-lady steals microphone to tell people to come to women’s conference

Okay so I bolded and underlined a certain part above. That's victim blaming at its finest. If Anna or anyone who has fallen victim to a cheating spouse is watching, this will definitely have encouraged them to say, "I had some fault in this." :angry-banghead:

[Sweet Fellowship]

Someone needs to break out Anna and the kids, seriously. I can't help but think the Duggars will be giving Anna a hard time over Joshy Boy's

behaviour.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Wow; sorry--This makes me realize how unclear I was.

First, I was not trying to speculate about Josiah' sexual activity. I was simply wondering whether (since Smuggar thought Josiah would be the next to court), Jim-Boob and Me-chelle felt the need to send Josiah for some strict military training as a way of getting him ready for the rigours of courtship--teaching him self-control, reminding him to be a Godly male, etc.

Second, when I said "the brothers coming after Smuggar," I meant "coming after" in the sense of their birth order. In no way was I suggesting they would attack him physically! I was simply suggesting that how Smuggar has lived his life may affect how the next few brothers live their lives--whether through their parents' choices or their own.

Thanks for clarifying, makes sense. And yeah, most people date without boot camp preparation first but with JB and M you never know. :D

Kinda funny about the misread of them coming after him physically. If they ever did form a violent posse makes me wonder if they could be each other accountability partners for that or if they'd need additional chaperones! :lol:

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Okay so I tuned in to the Cross Church service as per Jerrick's dual instagram posts. It's all about sexual immorality and Ashley Madison. I took notes (poorly and sometimes in short hand)

Okay so I bolded and underlined a certain part above. That's victim blaming at its finest. If Anna or anyone who has fallen victim to a cheating spouse is watching, this will definitely have encouraged them to say, "I had some fault in this." :angry-banghead:

Way to take the bullet for the rest of us - this is great.

The preacher is this level of specificity normal? I'd think they'd find it too racy for a mixed audience.

Directing husbands to become intoxicated by their wife's breasts...kinda pushy, no? Is this what happens to people who don't keep vodka in the house?

Although coincidentally my headship is super excited about breasts today - did a happy dance when I took out a package of boneless to make chicken parm tonight. Maybe those chicken breasts should be his new helpmeat. :lol: I'll see myself out.

[longskirts]

The best thing Josh could do now would be divorce Anna and leave ATI. He is not living that lifestyle either from preference, lack of self-control or other issues. If he stays, she will take some blame for not keeping him in line and she'll always have false hope that he'll change. He will disappoint her again and again.

He should give her the opportunity to move on and find someone else who actually believes in the same lifestyle as she does and who will be faithful to her. I doubt she will choose a divorce herself and if she's not going to, he should take some responsibility for once and admit he's not cut out for that life.

[Analytica49]

I kind of had a similar thought when I first read "I'm the biggest hypocrite ever." It struck an odd note with me because it didn't sound like Duggar-speak. What's the likelihood that it wasn't entirely written by Josh?

I agree. Smuggar IS an enormous hypocrite, but I doubt that this is the way he would have described himself when he first found out his secrets had been revealed. "Biggest hypocrite ever" sounds like someone ELSE's description of him. Did someone tell him what to say? Could these have been the words of one of his lovely parents? I'm pretty sure they do think he is an enormous hypocrite, among other things.

[lizzybee]

Way to take the bullet for the rest of us - this is great.

The preacher is this level of specificity normal? I'd think they'd find it too racy for a mixed audience.

No, no it isn't. My husband and I were both squirming while he went on and on about boobs and not being able to walk straight.

Directing husbands to become intoxicated by their wife's breasts...kinda pushy, no? Is this what happens to people who don't keep vodka in the house?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Although coincidentally my headship is super excited about breasts today - did a happy dance when I took out a package of boneless to make chicken parm tonight. Maybe those chicken breasts should be his new helpmeat. :lol: I'll see myself out.

[church_of_dog]

helpmeat. :lol: I'll see myself out.

:clap: and :bow-blue: and groan... Can't believe no one's come up with that before now!

[lizzybee]

I agree. Smuggar IS an enormous hypocrite, but I doubt that this is the way he would have described himself when he first found out his secrets had been revealed. "Biggest hypocrite ever" sounds like someone ELSE's description of him. Did someone tell him what to say? Could these have been the words of one of his lovely parents? I'm pretty sure they do think he is an enormous hypocrite, among other things.

Yes, exactly what I was thinking.

[ladidah]

Telling husbands to take pleasure in their wives' breasts is paraphrasing a verse from Proverbs. It's pretty common to hear it quoted and discussed in church services.

I've actually heard the verse read at a wedding for a very conservative couple (who had done "courtship" and didn't kiss before marriage).

[laundry]

I think maybe he used "biggest hypocrite ever" so when everyone else would call him that, they couldn't really hit him that hard, because he said it first (in this case.)

[lizzybee]

Telling husbands to take pleasure in their wives' breasts is paraphrasing a verse from Proverbs. It's pretty common to hear it quoted and discussed in church services.

I've actually heard the verse read at a wedding for a very conservative couple (who had done "courtship" and didn't kiss before marriage).

You're right it absolutely is - what was unusual was the going on and on and the explicit detail about the softness of breasts and attractiveness of breasts and how into breasts men are, and etc. etc.

[ofDany]

It might be a bit early, but I have a suggestion for the part 4 title. Joshley Madison: Festering zit on the face of fundamentalism *smirk*