Joshley Madison Pt 3: Storming Satan's Hidden Fortress

[JenniferJuniper]

The only way he can do the tell all and not leave Anna is for them to go fundie lite. But can Anna puke up enough of the Koolaid to go that route?

Joshy could probably survive quite well without all the restrictions (maybe even go to law school as he wanted - if he can get caught up on his education) But can Anna leave behind her parents and siblings who would probably shun her if she stepped away?

If they leave the fold I hope that other Duggars join them!

Josh has already left the fold. Anna "joining" him won't change his behavior. He will still be a narcissistic prick who will do what he wants.

I don't get why people think Josh would write a tell-all. Tell-all about what exactly? And who would be the target audience? If he blames his parents and ATI for his bad behavior, he's going to look like a dick to the people who support them. If he takes responsibility and babbles about Jesus forgiving him, its going to look disingenuous to almost everyone. And I don't think we've heard the end of the things Josh did.

And he molested his sisters.

I don't think anyone really cares what he has to say about anything.

Anna and Josh will probably stay together in their rehabbed house in Arkansas, have a few more kids and depend financially on Jim Bob. He'll resent her, drift back into porn, pay for sex when he thinks no one is looking and gain 50 more pounds. Anna will cook, clean, raise his children, and own his shame for him.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

quotes himself - “gender is not fluid†god created you to be who you are - male or female - god doesn’t make mistakes

Hermaphrodites? Siamese twins? Hydrocephalus babies?

ladies be wise in your dress publicly - because men like breasts.

Some men like bottoms. Some men like feet. Some men like legs. Some men like long, permed hair.

sex is right when you’re not negligent of your spouse. “don’t defraud your spouse sexually†(i don’t know what he means with this)

Defrauding usually means wearing something enticing which incites lust in other men which cannot be fulfilled. Maybe he means parading around in front of your husband half-naked but then refusing to have sex with him? Why do I get the feeling this minister is referring to his own likes (breasts!) and marriage?

Oh and by the way I sure hope there weren't any women in his congregation who had had mastectomies. What fresh hell to be sitting in church and be reminded by your minister that MEN LIKE BREASTS!

[Firiel]

How can she be too dumb to teach preschoolers, but smart enough to rebel against a lifetime of indoctrination? People are saying that she probably feels like there are no options. That's not the same thing as saying she has no options, but rather simply pointing out the likely result of 20+ years of being told her purpose is to bear children and worship her husband.

You attempting to scold anyone for treating other forum members with contempt is absolutely ridiculous given the things that you've posted in this thread. Do you even read what you submit and attempt to create some sort of cohesive thought that is consistent with your previous posts? Because you don't get to treat multiple forum members with disrespect and openly state that you're doing so, and still expect those same posters to treat you well. You also don't get to say that someone who is too dumb to teach preschoolers should be smart enough to seek out resources on her own and move herself and her children away from everyone and everything they've ever known. None of that is logical.

You don't make sense. All you're doing is coming off as vindictive, disrespectful, and definitely not "exceptionally smart."

Go ahead and "foe" me, by the way, and post whatever rambling response you feel makes sense. I'll even add the passive aggressive smiley for you. :)

You don't have to worry about being foe'd. MalteseBaby has already had a grand flounce and deactivated her account. :)

[HWest]

Some random thoughts...

Silver Lining - Josh does not seem to express desires for "young girls" in his AM profile. Seems to want to deal with women his own age.

The Duggars want everyone to live the way they live. It is the answer to finding true happiness, peace and salvation. No matter what goes wrong to disprove this they cling to their very unhealthy way of living.

Result of the Duggar way of life is a large group of young adults with no education, no prospects, no job skills living at home.

20 year old boy who is uneducated, unemployed courts naïve 20 year old uneducated unemployed naïve girl he meets at Home School conference. They have a sterile relationship overseen by chaperones and adults. They are brow beaten into making a vow to pop out kids like a motorized Pez dispenser.

WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

[GryffindorFTW]

Josh has already left the fold. Anna "joining" him won't change his behavior. He will still be a narcissistic prick who will do what he wants.

I don't get why people think Josh would write a tell-all. Tell-all about what exactly? And who would be the target audience? If he blames his parents and ATI for his bad behavior, he's going to look like a dick to the people who support them. If he takes responsibility and babbles about Jesus forgiving him, its going to look disingenuous to almost everyone. And I don't think we've heard the end of the things Josh did.

And he molested his sisters.

I don't think anyone really cares what he has to say about anything.

Anna and Josh will probably stay together in their rehabbed house in Arkansas, have a few more kids and depend financially on Jim Bob. He'll resent her, drift back into porn, pay for sex when he thinks no one is looking and gain 50 more pounds. Anna will cook, clean, raise his children, and own his shame for him.

This.

[chelleinchicago]

I wonder just how forgiving the girls, especially, are being toward Josh after this latest shitstorm despite what they might post on social media. Before they were saying they forgave him and didn't remember anything that had happened. Their anger was aimed at the media for making it all public. (That Bauer media and their porn problem!!! Oops....) But now.....I wonder how hard it is to walk the walk, especially for Jill and Jessa who I think were the ones most attached to the TV show. Well, other than JB.

After the story came out in May they were all so protective of Josh. Even though he lost his job and was under such scrutiny, he was still looked upon as a victim especially by JB & Michelle. After this latest round there's just got to be some anger manifesting in some way, if not outright yelling and screaming. I'd love to know how many times JB has looked at Josh and asked, "Are SURE there isn't anything else???".

In May he left them wounded, but it wasn't a mortal wound. Last week he effectively cut the effing head off the monster. And yet, I have a feeling he still looks out the window to see if there are any reporters or TV crews and thinks he's a special boy.

[Mr.Bowie]

Hermaphrodites? Siamese twins? Hydrocephalus babies?

Some men like bottoms. Some men like feet. Some men like legs. Some men like long, permed hair.

As my ancient, bitter, and often inappropriate grandmother once said "who cares what men like - they like what they can get" :wink-penguin:

[JillsFlowerHeadband]

You don't have to worry about being foe'd. MalteseBaby has already had a grand flounce and deactivated her account. :)

(bolding mine bc THIS, SO MUCH THIS)

Oh, no... well, darn. I was looking forward to her regaling us all with her Zsucifer-esque tales of how exceptional and superior her family is...

But back to the original topic. The bolded was what I was trying to express. I don't think Anna is a stupid woman by any stretch of the imagination. Naive? Sure, and let's get real: take a woman like Anna who's never had a paying job, probably hasn't been taught any real job skills or how to really manage household finances, and has four small children including an infant. With the job market like it is in a lot of places, she'd likely be going for the same jobs as younger people trying to break into the workforce and also older people who can't afford to retire but already have an established work history... it'd be pretty darn difficult for someone like Anna to try to find a job and get together enough money to go out on her own with four little kids to support. It wouldn't be impossible but it would be tough, for sure, and I can see where she'd feel like she doesn't really have any viable options for getting out.

I've heard people saying "she should go to her parents or one of the siblings that left the fold" but- Ma and Pa Keller aren't just the most financially well off, and we don't really know 100% what Daniel or Susanna's financial situations are. So they may not be able to afford to take on five more people, even if Anna were actively searching for a job.

I'm rambling, so I'm going to just stop here. The whole situation is just a sad mess and I'm having difficulty finding the right words.

[Bethie42]

The news of a failed Josh-courtship at 14 was news to me but I haven't followed the Duggars too closely before the two scandals. Anyone seen this yet? Can anyone confirm?

inquisitr.com/2359038/duggar-family-failed-to-treat-son-joshs-sex-addiction/

Pardon me if this has already been posted.

[JenniferJuniper]

I wonder just how forgiving the girls, especially, are being toward Josh after this latest shitstorm despite what they might post on social media. Before they were saying they forgave him and didn't remember anything that had happened. Their anger was aimed at the media for making it all public. (That Bauer media and their porn problem!!! Oops....) But now.....I wonder how hard it is to walk the walk, especially for Jill and Jessa who I think were the ones most attached to the TV show. Well, other than JB.

After the story came out in May they were all so protective of Josh. Even though he lost his job and was under such scrutiny, he was still looked upon as a victim especially by JB & Michelle. After this latest round there's just got to be some anger manifesting in some way, if not outright yelling and screaming. I'd love to know how many times JB has looked at Josh and asked, "Are SURE there isn't anything else???".

In May he left them wounded, but it wasn't a mortal wound. Last week he effectively cut the effing head off the monster. And yet, I have a feeling he still looks out the window to see if there are any reporters or TV crews and thinks he's a special boy.

Depends on the sister.

I think Jana detests him and has for a long time. During one of her Journey to the Heart journeys some years back she admitted she was struggling with forgiving a family member. I don't think it was about a jewelry box. Stop struggling, Jana. He's toxic.

Jessa will blame Anna. Cause that's what mean girls raised in patriarchy do.

Jill. Hmmm. She'll pray a lot. And hopefully Derick will keep her away from her family most of the time.

I have no idea how Jinger and Joy will process all this given that they were victims of more aggressive abuse by him as a young children and considering two of their older sisters made light of that abuse on national TV. My guess is they need real counseling that they'll never get.

[crazysnark]

Susanna Keller just accepted my follow request and her latest post is a josh meme that says "marriage is between a man and a woman, and my sisters, and that chick from Ashley Madison. This gives me hope.

[IronicallyMaeve]

It reminds me of that commercial: "Thats not how this works. That's not how any of this works."

I just think they think the sluttiest of all sluts must be lesbian sluts because they're not doing their duty by getting pregnant for god. And if they're not getting pregnant for god, they must be getting pregnant for satan. Because, secretly every woman wants to be a good wife and mother, even the satanic lesbian sluts. Or something.

It's an interesting read. Queer-identifying youth* are more likely to experience a teen pregnancy than straight teens.

*Who have had sex that could result in a pregnancy

They threw out everyone who hadn't had sex, or had only had sex with someone of the same gender. So no, the average lesbian teenager is probably less likely to get pregnant than the average straight teenager. HOWEVER, if that lesbian teenager is sexually active with males, then she is more likely to get pregnant that the average straight, sexually active teenager. Or at least that's what this one study found.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Want to take a quick moment to point a few things out:

I've seen many posts claiming that Anna is an idiot for staying. I think people may be underestimating just how indoctrinated she is in all this shit.

From the moment of her birth she has been told she is to provide children for the Lord. Not an average amount like most couples - she must provide as many as she possibly can because the Lord needs more soldiers to spread the Good Word. She has been raised to believe this is her only job and purpose in life.

She has also been raised to believe that she must submit to her husband at all times - even in the bedroom. If she doesn't want to have sex. . . well, that's too bad for her. She has no choice and marital rape doesn't exist in their worldview. Her job is to let Josh have it whenever he wants regardless of how she feels.

How can we expect her to suddenly up and leave when these are the messages she has been told for 27 years? Its not nearly as easy as some posters seem to think it is - she would literally be leaving everyone and everything she knew behind for a completely uncertain future. . . and she would be dragging her four young children with her. Even for the bravest person alive that would be scary to consider.

I know we all want to see her say:

"You know what? Fuck it. Fuck you Josh, fuck your parents, fuck my parents, and fuck Gothard! You're all ignorant assholes who are incapable of truly loving me as a person and I'm done with it. Have fun sugaring your own churro - the kids and I are gone."

But that isn't going to happen. She wasn't raised to know she has options and she wasn't provided a good-enough education to be able to figure these things out on her own. As she sees it right now, her only option is to stand by Josh and support him. End of story.

Yes, she has siblings who made it out of the Fundie world and she could turn to them. We have no idea what sort of relationship she has with these siblings though and we have no way of knowing if Anna actually wants to leave or understands that she can at this point.

There are many people who stay in toxic relationships far longer than they should. There have been women who have shared their stories on this very thread. Most of them have stated, at some point, just how difficult it was for them to find the strength to leave that situation. These are not always women who are from Fundie families either. So if an intelligent, educated, professional, woman could have trouble leaving a toxic situation. . . why wouldn't Anna have trouble as well?

So please, can we stop with all the Anna-blaming? She is a victim in this situation - not someone to vent your frustrations on.

I second all of this, especially the bolded.

I knew what abuse was and all the forms it came in long before my first abusive relationship. Every year in school from 6th grade to senior year, we talked about abuse, codependency, etc as part of our health classes (or units if we weren't in a health class that year). Yet, from 16 to almost 28, I ended up in abusive relationship after abusive relationship. And in each of the cases, it was impossible for me to see the abuse as it was happening.

Since my last abusive relationship, I've worked VERY HARD at changing the codependency habits I have developed over the years. However, it's a long process that requires a LOT of awareness about what I'm doing and what others around me are doing.

It's not like one day you can say "oh well I've had enough of being abused, I'm out." You have to realize you're in a toxic relationship, you have to realize that your behaviors have contributed to it (not to blame the victim, but codependency habits do affect the amount of abuse that can happen), and you have to realize that you deserve better (which is not something that is easy to convince someone with codependency -- you've been conditioned to believe that you deserve exactly what you have).

I was lucky that my codependency did not come from how I was raised. Anna is not that lucky. Every relationship in her life is one that either groomed her to be codependent or is with someone else who was groomed to be codependent. When codependency is normal, how to you expect someone to realize it's unhealthy?

[amendgitan]

Seriously. I get that not all religious people are great, but I'm not buying into the rhetoric that atheists/agnostics are better as a whole. There are shitty religious people (ex: Hitler), and there are shitty atheists (ex: Stalin). Your religion or lack thereof doesn't make you an inherently better person.

I agree with you but I wanted to point out that Hitler was not religious at all. Unless the religion was nazism with himself as god.

[crazysnark]

Ugh I commented on Susannas pic and said "I hope Anna and her kids gets away from this loser" and she replied "so do I but it doesn't look like that's happening"

[purple_summer]

yeah my methodist church wouldnt have done it either and we even had a sex scandal with a minister...It wasn't talked about ever.

As a teenager I sat through a sermon where that verse was used as proof of what was off limits sexually. As in "the bible says let her breasts satisfy you so no oral and no excessive fingering". Then we were treated to a TMI gloating session about their sex life.

And yes, this was in a full congregation service. Not youth group, a conference, etc.

[ProCat]

Hi guys!

I've been lurking for several years and just came to post this:

ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302553

This is the study from the American Journal of Public Health that preacher guy was referring to. So basically.. While he was entirely correct, LGBTQ teens DO become pregnant more than straight teens (according to this study and several smaller ones over the years), he obviously chose to ignore the surrounding context (ie lack of sex education involving questioning identities, over compensation for feeling unwanted by family, etc.). But who is really surprised that these people like to twist facts to fit their own agendas? I mean.. Overpopulation is society's biggest myth, right? Just look at all the land in Arkansas.

Okay that's all. Maybe I'll post again in a couple more years. Bye.

*Edited because I suck at typing on my phone. Okay now for real bye.

[chelleinchicago]

Depends on the sister.

I think Jana detests him and has for a long time. During one of her Journey to the Heart journeys some years back she admitted she was struggling with forgiving a family member. I don't think it was about a jewelry box. Stop struggling, Jana. He's toxic.

Jessa will blame Anna. Cause that's what mean girls raised in patriarchy do.

Jill. Hmmm. She'll pray a lot. And hopefully Derick will keep her away from her family most of the time.

I have no idea how Jinger and Joy will process all this given that they were victims of more aggressive abuse by him as a young children and considering two of their older sisters made light of that abuse on national TV. My guess is they need real counseling that they'll never get.

I agree about Jana, and again I wonder at the conflict of feeling you should forgive a family member while your parents who work you like a slave, in turn, treat him like a prince. I'd love to think she could gloat now, even if only to herself, but that doesn't seem to be who she is. I'd detest him based solely on what we know about him! That poor girl has had to live with all that and more. He IS toxic. He knows what words to say, what he thinks people around him want to hear, but I don't think he's capable of remorse or humility. My guess is that Jana would struggle with knowing that most of all.

I hope you're wrong about Jessa blaming Anna but she is definitely a mean girl who exudes an air of lacking empathy...IMO. I've always seen her, after Josh, as being the least likable of the kids. Nothing would surprise me there.

Sheesh. They all need counseling but they'll only get the kind that ends up putting the blame on them for not being more forgiving or not working hard enough to truly have a servant's heart. I think about Anna right now and cringe at the thought of fucking MEN sitting her down to talk to her about how she should think and act. I'd like to kick the lot of them in the nuts.

[twinmama]

And there was an open Bible on the bed when he said that, too. Pretty symbolic of the relationship, I think.

Fucking for the lord!

[Walking Cat Bed]

Um. Citation plz on that "lesbians are more likely to get pregnant" line. (Not y'all, the pastor.)

[ClaraOswin]

Pretty sure that church service (based on the notes a few pages back) made my blood pressure rise. So much victim blaming. I mean, it's always the woman's fault? And women basically have to have sex no matter what or the husband will stray? Fuck that. I have vaginismus. My husband and I were married 6 years before I was able to have sex at all. Is that a reason for him to cheat on me? Hell no. And he didn't. Because he's a REAL man. One who actually loves and cares for his wife. Unlike these fucking boys like Josh Duggar who try to pretend they are men.

Their "logic" is asinine. It makes me angry for any woman who is a part of this bizarre religion. I find it shocking that any woman would willingly want to go long with this shit.

[twinmama]

Susanna Keller just accepted my follow request and her latest post is a josh meme that says "marriage is between a man and a woman, and my sisters, and that chick from Ashley Madison. This gives me hope.

She must be in such a weird place where she feels terrible for her sister, but is laughing her ass off at how horrible that lifestyle treats those who stay! I hope she has a happy life with her little girl and her freedom.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I officially gave up on trying to catch up in this thread and I skipped ahead from page 11 to page 42. I hope I didn't miss anything too juicy in the middle.

[twinmama]

Pretty sure that church service (based on the notes a few pages back) made my blood pressure rise. So much victim blaming. I mean, it's always the woman's fault? And women basically have to have sex no matter what or the husband will stray? Fuck that. I have vaginismus. My husband and I were married 6 years before I was able to have sex at all. Is that a reason for him to cheat on me? Hell no. And he didn't. Because he's a REAL man. One who actually loves and cares for his wife. Unlike these fucking boys like Josh Duggar who try to pretend they are men.

Their "logic" is asinine. It makes me angry for any woman who is a part of this bizarre religion. I find it shocking that any woman would willingly want to go long with this shit.

But when you marry so you can have sex, then that sex is less than you expected what other options do you have?? :roll: I think good sex times come and go and when you're in a bad time, the love between two partners bridges that gap. If Josh and Anna had unsatisfying sex for him, and nothing to fall back on, it makes sense that he'd cheat. Or he's just a jerk and would have done it all regardless. Who knows!

[luv2laugh]

OH BOY! Daniel Keller is ALL OVER Jessa's facebook in the comments. He is trying to rescue Anna and get her out, calls Josh a pig, says his parents are preaching for Anna to stay and she is not taking his help. He offered to go get Anna and the kids and have them live with him and his wife and pay for them.

Here are SOME of the comments I've taken pictures of.