Male Views on Courtship/Purity/Modesty

[roddma]

It seems in every article about courtship/purity/modesty only Duggar daughter views are given. I know the males would likely say the same thing, but we still never hear what they want in a wife/partner or just general thoughts on purity/modesty from male prospectives -except Josh.

[HarleyQuinn]

I would actually like to hear that. Particularly from Josiah and Joseph.

[MoonFace]

All you'd hear is NIKE NIKE NIKE!

[ADoyle90815]

I would actually like to hear that. Particularly from Josiah and Joseph.

Same here, it would be nice for a Duggar male to mention what they're looking for in a future wife.

[samurai_sarah]

I don't know how valid this post is: brokendaughters.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/guest-post-a-mans-words-on-sexual-attraction-and-failed-courtship/

It's a guest-post from the male POV on a blog that's written by an ex-fundie.

[roddma]

My guess would be many fans of the show or Fundie lite/evangelical. Surely, there are males of the same sect that watch. I have seen that post on Broken Daughters. We just never hear specifically from one of the older Duggar sons.

[samurai_sarah]

My guess would be many fans of the show or Fundie lite/evangelical. Surely, there are males of the same sect that watch. I have seen that post on Broken Daughters. We just never hear specifically from one of the older Duggar sons.

Oops, sorry. I didn't see the Duggar reference. My bad. :embarrassed:

[Four is Enough]

More to the point, what are the Duggar males taught to keep themselves "pure" for the wedding night? Since so many of their sins are visual, as in seeing things on tv, "NIKE!" how do they prevent impure thoughts or actions? How do they then prepare themselves for the sexual side of marriage? Are THEY to be at HER beck and call? Are THEY to drop all and respond to HER when she asks for sex? Or is HE the only initiator, because Bible? How do they maintain their purity? How do they stay accountable?

[roddma]

More to the point, what are the Duggar males taught to keep themselves "pure" for the wedding night? Since so many of their sins are visual, as in seeing things on tv, "NIKE!" how do they prevent impure thoughts or actions? How do they then prepare themselves for the sexual side of marriage? Are THEY to be at HER beck and call? Are THEY to drop all and respond to HER when she asks for sex? Or is HE the only initiator, because Bible? How do they maintain their purity? How do they stay accountable?

In a"Love that Multiplies' Jim Bob mentions asking them often if they have impure thoughts. But note only the daughters show their list of qualities they expect in a mate

[CorruptionInc.]

In a"Love that Multiplies' Jim Bob mentions asking them often if they have impure thoughts. But note only the daughters show their list of qualities they expect in a mate

Would we want to see the male list?

[RosyDaisy]

More to the point, what are the Duggar males taught to keep themselves "pure" for the wedding night? Since so many of their sins are visual, as in seeing things on tv, "NIKE!" how do they prevent impure thoughts or actions? How do they then prepare themselves for the sexual side of marriage? Are THEY to be at HER beck and call? Are THEY to drop all and respond to HER when she asks for sex? Or is HE the only initiator, because Bible? How do they maintain their purity? How do they stay accountable?

Actually according to 1 Corinthians 7:3 they should.

The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

Notice how the wife rights are mentioned first.

[jinseng]

In purity culture, both men and women are supposed to maintain purity. However, I could honestly write a book about the fetishism of female purity in fundamentalist christianity. As I understand it, a woman's purity is considered incredibly sacred and holy, and having the opportunity to de-vriginise your bride on the wedding night is a sacred ritual that completes the wedding ceremony. While purity is expected of men as well, it is not worshipped or put on a pedestal in the same way. For women, their purity forms part of their identity as a Christian, and it is very important to them, and they are proud of their virginity.

Men are expected to have an accountability partner who they check in with on a regular basis regarding impure thoughts, fantasy, masturbation, pornography. They are not allowed to look at the internet without accountability. Or if they have to use the internet for work etc, they usually use a program called 'covenant eyes' (or something similar) which tracks all of the man's web searches and browsing activity. It then gets downloaded onto a file and sent to the wife (or accountability partner) for review. The partner can then scan through it website-by-website to make sure they're keeping it decent. These programs can also block searches on birth control, abortion, anything anti-fundamentalist. Internet usage on the guy's phones are also disabled.

Men are also taught to 'bounce their eyes'... when the guy sees an 'improperly dressed' woman, their eyes will automatically go to look at her. When this happens, they have to bounce their eyes, or look at something else, to avoid staring and gawking at her for any longer than just a second. To make this easier for men, men are taught to avoid areas where lots of skin is likely to be present. This is why the Duggars are not allowed to go to public swimming pools or beaches. Instead they swim privately, and only in their jeans... :wtf:

[bluebird]

I do not believe for 1 hot second that adolescent/teenage/young adult males are not thinking about sex for anything less than several times a hour despite all of the safe guards they have in place. And chances are they are relieving themselves too..with much guilt attached to it. Just because they are fundie doesn't mean they are biologically wired any differently and that wiring is more powerful than any trick of the trade they are taught. They just lie about having pure head thoughts, etc. They have no choice but to lie. The energy and stress attached to all of that must be overwhelming and may, in some cases create massive horn dogs...it is so unhealthy and sick..jmo.

[jinseng]

I was watching a video on the Embassy Institute website by Chris Hogan (IBLP's token marriage counsellor, who was also featured in one of 19kids&counting episodes). He was talking about a young man raised in ATI who had come to him with concerns that he might be gay. When they delved deeper into why he was same-sex attracted, the guy said that growing up he was taught to completely ignore and avoid looking at the female form, and to never allow thoughts of women to enter his mind. In turn, he started to look at his own body in front of the mirror and then started to become aroused by the male form, because all he could access to look at was himself. Then began this habit of masturbating in front of the mirror. The story made me feel so sad... He sounded so confused.

[DGayle]

In a"Love that Multiplies' Jim Bob mentions asking them often if they have impure thoughts. But note only the daughters show their list of qualities they expect in a mate

If you're constantly waiting to be asked if you're having impure thoughts, you're going to be thinking about what those impure thoughts are. if I'm sitting here eating a salad waiting to be asked if I'm thinking about sex, then SEX will be in a big, flashing light in my brain. Good way to train people to think about certain things all the time.

[DGayle]

I was watching a video on the Embassy Institute website by Chris Hogan (IBLP's token marriage counsellor, who was also featured in one of 19kids&counting episodes). He was talking about a young man raised in ATI who had come to him with concerns that he might be gay. When they delved deeper into why he was same-sex attracted, the guy said that growing up he was taught to completely ignore and avoid looking at the female form, and to never allow thoughts of women to enter his mind. In turn, he started to look at his own body in front of the mirror and then started to become aroused by the male form, because all he could access to look at was himself. Then began this habit of masturbating in front of the mirror. The story made me feel so sad... He sounded so confused.

This is not only sad, but interesting. We know that sexuality is something you're born with, but can the degree of oppression that fundy kids live with actually shape their future sexuality by teaching them so deeply that something is so wrong that it chances their psyches on a subconscious level? That boy's upbringing was so strict that his forming was STRONGLY affected from probably infancy, versus other fundies who hear it's wrong, but then focus on babies and other stuff, and then react to someone being gay. Most of us, and I think most fundies, are told one way or another, but it's not the absolute main focus for all of us or all fundies.

Can the extreme strength of focus on sexuality or sex from so early in life actually affect sexuality? We'd usually call a boy who is turned on my the male body gay or bi, but that boy's explanation is something else. He articulated how he came to be attracted to men by the focus being on never, ever thinking about women to the point that he became averted to them. He could be confused, or it could run so deep in him now that he will never be able to find women attractive and only men, presuming he would have been straight otherwise. There are a lot of variables that make for more questions, but it's food for thought. I really wish people would just let their kids be and stop telling them that natural thoughts and natural desires are wrong one way of the other.

[BrownieMomma]

I do not believe for 1 hot second that adolescent/teenage/young adult males are not thinking about sex for anything less than several times a hour despite all of the safe guards they have in place. And chances are they are relieving themselves too..with much guilt attached to it. Just because they are fundie doesn't mean they are biologically wired any differently and that wiring is more powerful than any trick of the trade they are taught. They just lie about having pure head thoughts, etc. They have no choice but to lie. The energy and stress attached to all of that must be overwhelming and may, in some cases create massive horn dogs...it is so unhealthy and sick..jmo.

IIRC from reading Dr. James Dobson, he supports male masturbation. This was some time ago, though, he may have changed his tune.

[whateverwhoever]

This is not only sad, but interesting. We know that sexuality is something you're born with, but can the degree of oppression that fundy kids live with actually shape their future sexuality by teaching them so deeply that something is so wrong that it chances their psyches on a subconscious level? That boy's upbringing was so strict that his forming was STRONGLY affected from probably infancy, versus other fundies who hear it's wrong, but then focus on babies and other stuff, and then react to someone being gay. Most of us, and I think most fundies, are told one way or another, but it's not the absolute main focus for all of us or all fundies.

Can the extreme strength of focus on sexuality or sex from so early in life actually affect sexuality? We'd usually call a boy who is turned on my the male body gay or bi, but that boy's explanation is something else. He articulated how he came to be attracted to men by the focus being on never, ever thinking about women to the point that he became averted to them. He could be confused, or it could run so deep in him now that he will never be able to find women attractive and only men, presuming he would have been straight otherwise. There are a lot of variables that make for more questions, but it's food for thought. I really wish people would just let their kids be and stop telling them that natural thoughts and natural desires are wrong one way of the other.

I think this is common in secular culture, but with girls and women feeling arousal from the female body while not being attracted to women. I know that was and somewhat still is the case for me. Because of the way popular culture and media is so influenced by the male gaze and constantly sexualizing women's bodies, I grew up equating women with sexual response. I'm still not actually attracted to women, as in wanting to have sexual contact with them, but I actually thought I was a lesbian as a young teen and then maybe bi. Now I know I am actually straight, it's pretty interesting...but still sexualized women make me think sexual thoughts which can be arousing.

It makes perfect sense to me that a young man who isnt allowed to dwell on female forms but can observe his own erection and aasociate his own body with sexual pleasure and arousal would get that twisted up the same way.

[bluebird]

Are the Duggars Dobson followers? Thought I read a while ago that masterbation was a no-no however wet dreams were "forgivable" because it was a uncontrollable event...under QF standards.

[BrownieMomma]

Are the Duggars Dobson followers? Thought I read a while ago that masterbation was a no-no however wet dreams were "forgivable" because it was a uncontrollable event...under QF standards.

This is from 2000? It is in line with what I remember.

todayschristianwoman.com/articles/2000/january/what-to-say-about-masturbation.html

In his classic parenting book Preparing for Adolescence (Tyndale), Dr. James Dobson said, "It is my opinion that masturbation is not much of an issue with God. It's a normal part of adolescence—and Jesus did not mention it in the Bible." To those kids who do masturbate, Dobson says, "You should not struggle with guilt over it."

ETA: I cannot recall any instance of any Duggar referencing Dobson, so it seems unlikely to say the Duggars are followers of Dobson.

[eh02]

I think men are supposed to be just as "pure," but if they fail, it's seen more as a little stumble. Whereas "failing" to stay pure for a woman becomes a defining character trait. It makes no sense, of course.

And regarding sexual preferences, I think there is plenty of evidence that sexuality is heavily influenced by our genetic makeup, but definitely not completely defined by it. Some people have very static sexual preferences throughout life, and some people are very fluid and their preferences change, either slightly or dramatically. I think it's obvious that genes control a good chunk of it, since our genes are the most heavy determinant of our individual hormonal makeup. But even our hormonal balance is not typically static throughout life.

It would probably be naive to say that our life experiences didn't shape our sexuality, or even our sexual and gender identity, somewhat. But I think the danger comes in trying to psychoanalyze people and pinpoint what "made them that way," because of course, it doesn't matter what made you that way, whether it's your genes or anything else. Unless you are hurting people, you are fine just the way you are. The idea of a boy sitting in front of a mirror and having to attempt to justify what went wrong in his life (not being allowed to look at woman) that made him become attracted to men is just tragic and messed up. :( Nobody ever has to sit in front of a mirror feeling sad and insecure, wondering what went wrong to make them straight. It is a shame that people have such rigid views on sexuality.

[SassyPants]

Since I did not attend the Gothard school of TDRT, I need some clarification. So the males are viewed as weak and need, at least in Duggarville, a prompt of "nike" from a female in order to overcome and avoid temptation? Yet the weak male is the headship and gets to make all the rules?

Pa, Ma and Granny Clampett, that's some skewed logic-

[nst]

Since I did not attend the Gothard school of TDRT, I need some clarification. So the males are viewed as weak and need, at least in Duggarville, a prompt of "nike" from a female in order to overcome and avoid temptation? Yet the weak male is the headship and gets to make all the rules?

Pa, Ma and Granny Clampett, that's some skewed logic-

ever see that scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the mother says something like the man is the head but the woman is the hands on the head where she moves the head around

and I think JB is very weak and needy he just fakes it with all his bravado

[eh02]

ever see that scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the mother says something like the man is the head but the woman is the hands on the head where she moves the head around

and I think JB is very weak and needy he just fakes it with all his bravado

I think it was, "the woman is the neck."

;)

But I do think that is very much representative of Jim Bob and Michelle's relationship.

[Toothfairy]

Since I did not attend the Gothard school of TDRT, I need some clarification. So the males are viewed as weak and need, at least in Duggarville, a prompt of "nike" from a female in order to overcome and avoid temptation? Yet the weak male is the headship and gets to make all the rules?

Pa, Ma and Granny Clampett, that's some skewed logic-

These people are backwards. I wonder if a married women has go yell Nike to her husband.