Laura Ingalls Wilder and submission

[Mommy22alyns]

If kids never read fiction, they're going to turn into very dull adults.

See: Maxwells.

[ladypuglover]

I loved the great brain series, read and re-read them all. I tried to get my sons into them but no die. I do have a shame face story about the great brain books. I read the word mormon as moron and told my mother's friend that I knew all about her church from the stories I was reading and that I knew that she was a moron. Thankfully she asked me to show her the book and said it was mormon not moron. She and my mom had a great laugh but I was still red faced for a long time calling such a nice lady a moron.

I wonder how the fundies would feel about Rebecca of SunnyBrook farm? I loved it as a kid but will have to re-read it to see if any willfullness is in it.

[almostfundylyte]

Oh WOW! I've read almost all the books that they say are not fit for proper Christian girls. I wonder if this is the reason I turned out to be a pagan, feminist adult who didn't change her name when she got married, let alone promise to obey? :lol:

I honestly don't understand this way of thinking. Only letting your kids read stuff that is exactly what you believe is so limiting. If you don't agree, why not sit down and have an honest discussion with little Suzie or Johnny about why you feel that character x was wrong and use it as a life lesson? Teach your children to THINK and truly understand their beliefs, not just repeat things they have been taught with no context. (note: I do not have kids myself, so I am not qualified to give parenting advice, but it seems like common sense to me)

I completely agree. I take a lot of flak from my fundy-lite family for letting my son read Harry Potter because of the evil witchcraft, for letting him see the Shrek movies ('cuz dragons are the debil, ya know), and letting him see the Twilight movies, cuz he thinks the phasing wolves are awesome. He's also read the Chronicles of Narnia, but my family is OK with those. I just say books aren't bad. He's currently in 4th grade, but is taking 6th grade reading and social studies, is in scouts, the choir, etc. He knows the difference in fantasy and reality, because we talk about the books after he reads them. If there's something he doesn't understand, he asks me about it, and we will read the books together sometimes. I do skim to make sure there is nothing inappropriate for his age, but for the most part, I let him read whatever he wants.

But, I have a full time job and my husband is a stay at home dad, so my opinion wouldn't matter to these fundies.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Anyone else here read "The Great Brain" series by J. D. Fitzgerald? Also "Half-Magic" and the related books by Edward Eager. Oh, and Beverly Cleary! I particularly like the illustrations in the early books by Louis Darling, I know someone here uses one as their avatar and I've been appreciating that! :)

:D

Oh and "B is for Betsy" and that entire series by Carolyn Hayward. Looking them up on Amazon it seems they've been quite updated on the covers, ours were from 1940 or so.

Carolyn Haywood's books are so sweet and innocent! I was thinking about them the other day while reading the thread here about Sarah Maxwell's Moody series. In my mind, I went through a number of different classic children's books, trying to find something that Ms. Maxwell could read, something that might inspire her as an author. When you're a writer, you have to read all the time or else you never get any better. I thought the Betsy books might work for her, but then I realized that Steve and Teri probably wouldn't allow them. (Crazy, isn't it? We're talking about a woman who is approaching thirty!) After all, "B Is For Betsy" is about a little girl who is afraid to go to school until she actually gets there. The teacher is nice, Betsy meets her best friend Ellen, and there's a silly little boy named Billy who gets into some mischief. And let's not forget Mr. Kilpatrick, the policeman who helps the children cross the street. Surely, Steve Maxwell would warn those Betsy-book parents that they cannot keep their children's hearts if some other authority figure helps them across the street every day!

[Rachel333]

I like this thread. I loved All of a Kind Family, Great Brain, and Edward Eager. I think I read all of the Carolyn Haywood books. I like Eddie and his goat. Such a cute book. I read the Happy Hollisters, but I don't remember much about them. I also enjoyed a similar series about an African-American family. I really liked Family Grandstand and Family Sabbatical, by Carol Ryrie Brink. I actually forgot that they were written by the same woman who wrote Caddie Woodlawn.

There are so many good kids' books. Pippi Longstocking, Danny Dunn, Mary Poppins, Eleanor Estes, Lois Lenski, Edith Nesbit, Doctor Doolittle, Swallows and Amazons, the Borrowers, etc. Oh, and some of my favorites, the Shoes books! This is making me nostalgic for my childhood. I'm so glad I was able to read as much as I wanted to.

[jenny_islander]

Waitwaitwaitwait. Shrek features toilet humor, crotch injury, sexual innuendo to the point of somebody admiring his own erection, words most people don't want their kids to say, and slaps at just about every family film and nursery fairy tale commonly accepted as wholesome . . . and somebody out there is focusing on the big purple girl dragon who just wants to quit her lousy job and find somebody to love? Because she's supposed to be the Devil? So kids are going to look at the big purple girl dragon who just wants somebody to love (and sing karaoke with at a kickin' wedding reception) and immediately decide, "Y'know, roasting on a toasting fork for all eternity suddenly sounds very attractive. HAIL SATAN!" or something?

Wave the right stimulus in front of these know-nothings and they'll do anything. Their brains turn off and they run around in circles bleating, "Satanists! Humanists! Socialists! Aaaieeee!" Promise to defend them from the big scary thing and they'll give you money, votes, a pulpit . . .

Wow, I am glad my ebil secular humanist public school made us study syllogisms, analogies, and tautologies in third grade.

[kunoichi66]

sexual innuendo to the point of somebody admiring his own erection

What? When is this? I've never heard that.....but then things like that normally fly right over my head.... :oops:

[FaustianSlip]

See, I loathe the vast majority of DIckens that I've read, but I adore almost all of Alcott's stuff. The reason I had a hard time getting into Little Women was mostly because I was young when my mom read it to me, and I remember getting all weepy when Beth died- it really weirded me out. Her other stuff, though- Under the Lilac Tree, Little Men, et cetera, I read again and again. I never thought of her as being especially similar to Dickens.

I loved the Great Brain books! I also got really into Enid Blyton when we lived in England when I was younger. Tore through virtually everything the woman ever wrote. And, of course, Tintin and Asterix....

[dawbs]

People mentioned Beverly Cleary--I can't find it (anywhere) but I know I've heard/read that she was given a list of 'improper' words that young ladies should never use (such as 'phone' for "telephone or call")...and she deliberately worked as many improper words into her writing as possible.

(shhh, don't tell the fundies!)

[starfish]

I, too, had a hard time finishing Little Women. I finally listened to it on Books on Tape and really liked it, though. I loved "All of a Kind Family" books, Caddie Woodlawn, and the Little House books. But as I posted in another thread on FJ long ago, I think I purely loved the Trixie Beldon books more than anything else.

Have any of you read Robert Newman's books? I loved Merlin's Mistake and the Testing of Tertius back in the day. Wanted to give those a shout-out too.

[Avalondaughter]

The show was, well, awful. As far as I'm concerned it takes place in another universe from the books, which are in something of a parallel universe to ours as it is -- I am of the school of thought that while largely based on actual events, they're probably fairly heavily fictionalized. Still great, though! I read those books to pieces as a kid and really really need to buy a new set. There's a reason I live in a log cabin, though one that is equipped with power and plumbing!

Though the book by Alison Arngrim, who was Nellie on the show, is hilarious. Also totally not fundie-approved. :)

I just read Alison Arngrim's (Nellie Oleson) autobiography "Confessions of a Prairie Bitch" (RECOMMEND - she's hilarious) and she talks about the success of the show and also why it deviated so much from the books.

Michael Landon pointed out that much of the content of the books wouldn't fly in television. You can't make an episode about butchering a pig or churning butter. Wilder devoted many chapters to such subjects as they were meant to give modern children a feel for 19th century farm life. They were informative and interesting, but they weren't something you could put on TV. Think about it, if you took those chapters out, and stuck to the books, you wouldn't have many TV episodes (although I suppose it might make a decent miniseries). Later on someone else ended up having the rights to the story of the later life of LIW, so the show had few rights to tell Laura's story accurately, but also free rein to make up anything they wanted.

As for the utter sappiness of the show, it was meant to be a relief to the counterculture and negativity on TV in the 70s. It wasn't expected to be successful and work, but it did. Plenty of people like that stuff. Think of "Touched by an Angel" - also sappy and poorly written, but also had a huge following.

Definitely not a fundie-approved show. For all of the religion and sappiness, it was even more risque than the books. Laura kissed Almanzo before they were even engaged let alone married, as did many other characters. Mary kissed her first fiance` without being engaged so that they could find out if they were really in love. Mary once walked into the empty schoolhouse to find Miss Beadle in a passionate smooch with an unidentified man. So defrauding!

Edited for clarity

[O Latin]

I think one of the things that people did back then that we totally don't do now is that they would read a chapter (often aloud to the whole family!), then they would go to bed or go do something else. Then the next day they would have a whole day sitting behind a plow or milking goats or whatever it was people did back then and they would have time to reflect on what they had read. They would also reread books in a way that most people don't today. (Like, seriously, how many books did the average middle-class family have 150 years ago?) Reading a book was way more of a long-term process than it is for us today.

This is exactly why I can never finish an "old" book. I take forever to read it, a little bit at a time, but inevitably school starts or finals week comes around or I have a choir concert and by the time I have spare reading time again, I've forgotten what was going on, so I just move on to something else instead. I never finish a lot of modern books for the same reason.

I read the Great Brain series when I was little. Actually, my dad read them out loud to me. I don't remember if I liked them or not. I think I liked the first one, but the later books (after they go away to boarding school or something) seemed kind of boring. I was probably a little young for them at that point.

Did anyone else read Encyclopedia Brown? I would check out piles of those from the library and read them for hours. The only downer was that you could only read them once, because once you knew the answer, it wasn't any fun to reread.

[Joykins]

Have any of you read Robert Newman's books? I loved Merlin's Mistake and the Testing of Tertius back in the day. Wanted to give those a shout-out too.

LOVED Merlin's Mistake. Have never seen The Testing of Tertius but now I'mma look for that.

[bekkah]

I loved LIW when I was little. I remember when I was little, my parents took me to the LIW pageant(it's in walnut grove, i live fairly close to it). That is the thing for any girl who loves LIW. When we were there, everyone commented on how much I look like Nell. I miss those books.

Did anyone read Betsy and Tacy as a kid? The author is Maud Hart Lovelace and lived pretty close to me(she was from Mankato). Those were really great books too My parents had me read a lot of authors who grew up and wrote about the area when I was younger. They thought it was a good way to learn history.

[VVV]

I have always loved the LIW books. Years ago when my husband and I were driving through Missouri, I insisted that we take the very short detour to the Wilder museum in Mansfield. So interesting! And there was so much more to LIW than what is in the LH books, as I learned when I discovered her other writings and Rose's writings. The tv show, however, should not even be mentioned in the same breath. I don't think I could ever stand more than five minutes of that treacly, anachronistic nonsense.

I remember reading the All of a Kind family books as a child, and loving them, but I could not remember what they were called until they popped up on this thread. Thanks! Now I know what to look for at the library for my 10-year-old daughter.

Incidentally, regarding submissive wives, Carolyn Ingalls extracted a promise from her husband before the DeSmet move that it would be their last move. I do not think either the Ingalls or the Wilder families cultivated the submissive ideal in women.

[Trynn]

I have always loved the LIW books. Years ago when my husband and I were driving through Missouri, I insisted that we take the very short detour to the Wilder museum in Mansfield. So interesting! And there was so much more to LIW than what is in the LH books, as I learned when I discovered her other writings and Rose's writings. The tv show, however, should not even be mentioned in the same breath. I don't think I could ever stand more than five minutes of that treacly, anachronistic nonsense.

I agree, the TV show was awful. I can see why some of it deviated from the books, but the issue I have is more the historical innacurracy. You saw all the people in town with telephones for goodness sakes! They weren't yet very popular in Laura's day, especially in the rural areas she'd have been. I also walked in on an episode once where Laura is in school and the teacher is talking about the suffrage movement. I outright refused to watch the show after that.

[Guest Anonymous]

I loved the great brain series, read and re-read them all. I tried to get my sons into them but no die. I do have a shame face story about the great brain books. I read the word mormon as moron and told my mother's friend that I knew all about her church from the stories I was reading and that I knew that she was a moron. Thankfully she asked me to show her the book and said it was mormon not moron. She and my mom had a great laugh but I was still red faced for a long time calling such a nice lady a moron.

I wonder how the fundies would feel about Rebecca of SunnyBrook farm? I loved it as a kid but will have to re-read it to see if any willfullness is in it.

Rebecca of sunnybrook farm? well...

She disobeys her aunt by wearing a "good" dress to school when she wasn't supposed to. She KNEW she wasn't supposed to wear it, didn't bother asking and does it anyways. Along with a parasol as well. And she spends a good amount of time looking at the mirror admiring her reflection in that scene. VANITY!

Yeah, my guess is no.

[Trynn]

Rebecca of sunnybrook farm? well...

She disobeys her aunt by wearing a "good" dress to school when she wasn't supposed to. She KNEW she wasn't supposed to wear it, didn't bother asking and does it anyways. Along with a parasol as well. And she spends a good amount of time looking at the mirror admiring her reflection in that scene. VANITY!

Yeah, my guess is no.

I just read the book. Actually she reasons that she THINKS her aunt MIGHT allow her to wear it, but she is not around to ask, and that is how she justifies it.

But there are other instances of her arguing/disobeying her aunt.

Oh, and she tries to punish herself (by throwing her parasol down the well) instead of asking her guardians to do it for her!!! :o

[starfish]

Joykins, "The testing of Tertius" is the sequel to Merlin's Mistake.

I think you would like it and I hope you can find it.

If you have trouble finding it, sometimes a copy turns up on Ebay.

I'll see if I can find my copy, but no promises there as I haven't laid eyes

upon it in a while....

[tabitha2]

What about PollyAnna?

[Black Aliss]

Someone mentioned Pippi Longstocking. My kids loved Pippi and were kind of tickled to learn that Stieg Larsson's Lisbeth Salandar was modeled on Stieg's impression of how Pippi might have turned out as an adult, what with all of her issues with authority. To fundies, Pippi probably represents the anti-christ.

[Guest Anonymous]

I just read the book. Actually she reasons that she THINKS her aunt MIGHT allow her to wear it, but she is not around to ask, and that is how she justifies it.

But there are other instances of her arguing/disobeying her aunt.

Oh, and she tries to punish herself (by throwing her parasol down the well) instead of asking her guardians to do it for her!!! :o

And I forgot the most important part! She's living with 2 maiden aunts!! No male headship!!!

[LadyBBR]

I loved the great brain series, read and re-read them all. I tried to get my sons into them but no die. I do have a shame face story about the great brain books. I read the word mormon as moron and told my mother's friend that I knew all about her church from the stories I was reading and that I knew that she was a moron. Thankfully she asked me to show her the book and said it was mormon not moron. She and my mom had a great laugh but I was still red faced for a long time calling such a nice lady a moron.

I wonder how the fundies would feel about Rebecca of SunnyBrook farm? I loved it as a kid but will have to re-read it to see if any willfullness is in it.

In the Little House books I read diptheria (the disease that ended up crippling Almanzo) as diarrhea for many years as a kid. I could never understand how diarrhea could affect someone so badly!

[mnb357]

Does anybody remember reading in "These Happy Golden Years" about when she went to keep the local dressmaker company on the claim. Laura mentioned how Sundays were hard because the husband would be home and he "was such a strict Presbyterian, nobody was allowed to laugh or even smile on Sundays" they could only talk gravely about Biblical things. Yeah, she wouldn't like the fundies...not one bit.

[tabitha2]

That's almost how the Ingalls spent Sundays when she was a little girl in the Big Woods.