Israel Flights Delayed by Ultra-Orthodox

[nausicaa]

If you see the rest of the world as horribly depraved and think that your "purity" makes you particularly "sensitive", you figure that you are entitled to demand this. I've seen the word "sensitivity" thrown around in some discussions, in a particularly Orwellian way. They certainly aren't talking about being sensitive to the feelings of others. Instead, it's a code word for "I've been raised to be unable to withstand normal life and human interactions without going crazy".

That makes me think that if El Al gave into this and reseated people or allowed ticket buyers to specify the gender of those sitting next to them, the next demand would be a stricter dress code or totally gender segregated flights. If one shouldn't have to sit next to a woman, one also shouldn't have to look at women's thighs/upper arms/midriffs.

[browncoatslytherin]

That makes me think that if El Al gave into this and reseated people or allowed ticket buyers to specify the gender of those sitting next to them, the next demand would be a stricter dress code or totally gender segregated flights. If one shouldn't have to sit next to a woman, one also shouldn't have to look at women's thighs/upper arms/midriffs.

that was my thought. giving into ridiculous little religious whims like this just open the door for other things. instead, i think those uber-religious people need to learn to deal with shit like this when out in public in a secular society. we can't expect to coddle everybody.

[It'sFunToRun]

I should know this, but is touching a woman one is not married to forbidden for ultra Orthodox Jews? I'm guessing the issue is the leg to leg contact that commonly happens when two people are seated next to one another on a plane (and the insidious elbow wars over the arm rest).

It is forbidden to touch opposite gender non-relatives that you aren't married to, but as 2xx1xy1JD (I get that you have two girls and one boy, but what is the JD? Jewish Dog?) pointed out, you are allowed to ride a crowded bus even if you will bump into opposite gender people, because it is accidental and non-sexual.

I was seated next to a conservative Muslim man on a plane once and during some jetlag, things got...awkward (he was actually very nice about it, and didn't say anything, just tried to move closer to the other side of his seat. I tried to stay on my side as well, but it was like the Scrambler at an amusement park at some point).

August does make a good point about just paying for three seats. I believe people have the right to practice their religion in whatever way they wish, no matter how outlandish it may seem to others. But I don't believe people have an entitlement to that practice being easy (or cheap). And it is certainly not incumbent on others to alter their own lives for those beliefs.

Did you mean "during some turbulence"? :lol:

[It'sFunToRun]

Wasn't that a joke?

I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

It's about shomer negiah. Their messed-up charedi society brainwashes them into believing that touching or looking at a woman is one of the worst sins.

Honestly, charedi men seem to get shafted just as much as women, but differently. Their entire life path is dictated to them and they're forced to focus on nothing but a 3000-year-old book and its minutiae of laws to the point that everything is a potential sin. Apparently they also don't get taught manners or humility, so outrageous behavior like this happens.

Some ultra-Orthodox men really do get shafted. Sometimes the women are allowed to go to Haredi colleges and get degrees in education or programming or something, but the men aren't allowed to. Unlike with Christian Fundies, Haredi men are more sheltered than the women are.

Some aren't even allowed to play sports (it's a waste of time that should be spent learning Toy-rah!) and they eat unhealthy food and you can just tell by looking at them that they are not healthy and you feel bad that society exists like that.

[Savoring Samsara]

...I believe the JD is for "juris doctor" as she is a lawyer.

[moodygirl86]

I wish I'd been on that flight because I sure as hell wouldn't have moved or apologised for existing just because I don't have a penis. If guys like that are offended by the presence of women, they shouldn't be travelling by plane, should they.

[shedemei]

That makes me think that if El Al gave into this and reseated people or allowed ticket buyers to specify the gend er of those sitting next to them, the next demand would be a stricter dress code or totally gender segregated flights. If one shouldn't have to sit next to a woman, one also shouldn't have to look at women's thighs/upper arms/midriffs.

It absolutely will start. The bus company, Egged, has already given in. They have officially-separated (mehadrin) buses in Ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods, and refuse to run ads showing pictures of women on those buses or any serving those neighborhoodS. Their drivers turn a blind eye to Ultra-orthodox men who force segregation of women on non-mehadrin buses, even when violence is involved.

You can find many reports of this in the news. Israel is slowly turning into an Ultra-orthodox theocracy.

[August]

It absolutely will start. The bus company, Egged, has already given in. They have officially-separated (mehadrin) buses in Ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods, and refuse to run ads showing pictures of women on those buses or any serving those neighborhoodS. Their drivers turn a blind eye to Ultra-orthodox men who force segregation of women on non-mehadrin buses, even when violence is involved.

You can find many reports of this in the news. Israel is slowly turning into an Ultra-orthodox theocracy.

Did you hear This American Life a couple of weeks ago? It seems that there are no obsessively enforced rules about empathy, community spirit or altruism in their code. And that they're not only aiming to outbreed the rest of us, but use their numbers to make us submit to them.

[ViolaSebastian]

Did you hear This American Life a couple of weeks ago? It seems that there are no obsessively enforced rules about empathy, community spirit or altruism in their code. And that they're not only aiming to outbreed the rest of us, but use their numbers to make us submit to them.

I heard this, it was absolutely insane.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a ... e-majority

From This American Life: Before the war in the East Ramapo, New York school district, there was a truce. Local school officials made a deal with their Hasidic and ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighbors: we'll leave you alone to teach your children in private yeshivas as you see fit as long as you allow our public school budget to pass. But the budget is funded by local property taxes, which everyone, including the local Hasidim, have to pay — even though their kids don't attend the schools that their money is paying for. What followed was one of the most volatile local political battles we've ever encountered.

Basically, the ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighbors decided to stop voting through the school budgets. For example, it's taking teenagers five years to complete high school because they just don't have the funding to provide the amount of classes that they need.

[shedemei]

Yes. Ive meant to start a thread about the situation in East Ramapo for a year; I've followed it a long time.

I think you're being overly harsh. I think what you wrote is true for Israel, where the ultra-orthodox DO want a theocracy under their rules instead of secular or "regular" orthodox.

Outside Israel (chutz laaretz) it's about the most insular of the UO groups wanting to be in their own villages to control their own affairs without interacting with the outside world. There IS, unfortunately, a culture of taking advantage of government benefits by right or by fraud. But they really don't want to take over the country. They're inward-focused fundies (outside Israel) unlike the christian fundies.

[ViolaSebastian]

Yes. Ive meant to start a thread about the situation in East Ramapo for a year; I've followed it a long time.

I think you're being overly harsh. I think what you wrote is true for Israel, where the ultra-orthodox DO want a theocracy under their rules instead of secular or "regular" orthodox.

Outside Israel (chutz laaretz) it's about the most insular of the UO groups wanting to be in their own villages to control their own affairs without interacting with the outside world. There IS, unfortunately, a culture of taking advantage of government benefits by right or by fraud. But they really don't want to take over the country. They're inward-focused fundies (outside Israel) unlike the christian fundies.

From what I have gathered from people's expressions/carefully worded comments, the ultra-orthodox aren't terribly popular in Israel amongst more liberal and secular Jews. The big complaint I seem to notice is that they are exempt from military service, which seems to irritate people to no end.

[browncoatslytherin]

From what I have gathered from people's expressions/carefully worded comments, the ultra-orthodox aren't terribly popular in Israel amongst more liberal and secular Jews. The big complaint I seem to notice is that they are exempt from military service, which seems to irritate people to no end.

is there a particular reason they list for ultra-orthodox being exempt? i wonder what would happen if someone ultra-orthodox became more liberal in their beliefs after the normal age of required military service. would they try to force them into the service? or is there a time period for that?

[HereticHick]

August hits the nail on the head-- if you are a special snowflake who can't risk being "contaminated" by other humans you deem inferior, buy 3 seats (on the plane, on the bus, whatever). Can't afford 3 seats? Sucks to be you.

[It'sFunToRun]

From what I have gathered from people's expressions/carefully worded comments, the ultra-orthodox aren't terribly popular in Israel amongst more liberal and secular Jews. The big complaint I seem to notice is that they are exempt from military service, which seems to irritate people to no end.

They are not popular at all but they form a sizable voting bloc. Haredim are exempt from military service, but it's complicated because there are fears that if Haredim join, they will erode at the rights of women in the military. The IDF has never fought a war without women soldiers, but it has been doing fine without Haredim. Ideally, all healthy Israeli Jews should serve and should have equal rights, but if it comes down to it, I think it's much more important (to the IDF and to society as a whole) to have women in the IDF than to have Haredim in the IDF.

By the way, if you ever hear about the "Haredi units" like Netzach Yehuda, they are really only about 5% Haredi, the rest is Modern Orthodox boys and ex-Haredi boys. Calling it a Haredi unit is funny.

[ViolaSebastian]

is there a particular reason they list for ultra-orthodox being exempt? i wonder what would happen if someone ultra-orthodox became more liberal in their beliefs after the normal age of required military service. would they try to force them into the service? or is there a time period for that?

Evidently they feel that their purpose and calling in life is to learn the Torah, and military service interferes with that. I have no idea how they determine eligibility if they become more liberal, though.

[shedemei]

is there a particular reason they list for ultra-orthodox being exempt? i wonder what would happen if someone ultra-orthodox became more liberal in their beliefs after the normal age of required military service. would they try to force them into the service? or is there a time period for that?

The exemption is rooted in the Holocaust and formation of the state of Israel.

There's a good discussion here:

he original reason for the arrangement was the destruction of the yeshivas in Europe during the Holocaust and the wish to prevent the closing of yeshivas in Israel due to their students being drafted to the army. Today this objective no longer exists. The yeshivas are flourishing in Israel, and there is no serious worry that the draft of yeshiva students, according to any arrangement, would bring about the disappearance of this [yeshiva] institution.[12]

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/il-haredi-m ... -draft.php

[browncoatslytherin]

thanks viola and shedemei :)

[It'sFunToRun]

Evidently they feel that their purpose and calling in life is to learn the Torah, and military service interferes with that. I have no idea how they determine eligibility if they become more liberal, though.

If they become more liberal they see protecting the only country that G-d gave the Jews as something to be proud of, not something to get out of.

I've heard some Haredim using the argument "The State is making it illegal for Haredi boys to study Torah by forcing them to join the military!" and "Israel wants to jail Jewish boys who want to study Torah!" which is absurd because there are special units that give soldiers special time each day to study the Torah. It's not making it illegal to study Torah, it's making it punishable to evade military service. If they refuse to join the military, they go to jail, not because they were studying Torah. It's like if a boy breaks the speed limit so he can get home so he can spend more time learning the Torah, he's being jailed for breaking the law, not for wanting to study Torah.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Did you hear This American Life a couple of weeks ago? It seems that there are no obsessively enforced rules about empathy, community spirit or altruism in their code. And that they're not only aiming to outbreed the rest of us, but use their numbers to make us submit to them.

Are you talking about the East Ramapo school district topic? I want to be clear on who "they" are - unlike Christian fundies, most on this board have no idea who the different groups are.

That case involves the Satmar Hasidic village of Kiryas Yoel in New York. Satmar is isolationist, even by Hasidic standards. The line about making us submit to them is misleading, because they don't really care what the non-Jewish world does. They don't convert people, and do very little outreach even to other Jews. It's not a Dominionist ideology. They do, however, have a massive birth rate (about 10 kids per family), and that does have a real demographic impact. Kiryas Yoel grew 51% during a 6 yr period. So, you've got a community with lots of early marriage, lots of kids, not a lot of secular education, and a desire to keep themselves as separate as possible.

All the kids go to private religious schools, but in New York State, special education and busing is provided by the public school board. The public school board gets the bulk of its budget from local property taxes, and school board officials control that budget. So, you end up with an ever-growing group in that particular school district that want to reduce the taxes that the pay for schools that they will never use, but who also want as much as possible for the few services that they do use. The school board is no longer functional as a result.

Satmar's not my community. It actually regards my community with extreme hostility, so I'm not really neutral when I discuss them, and I rarely meet anyone from that community. Within their community, there are elements of altruism and community spirit and some very active organizations that visit the sick, provide meals, etc. It's the relationship with those outside the community that needs work.

Satmar is a Jewish group, but it also has its own ideology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar_%28 ... 9#Ideology Customs of the group are considered to be like actual traditional Jewish law.

Israel in general is a long way from being a theocracy. Tel Aviv is very secular http://www.gaytlvguide.com/component/co ... -aviv-2014. You do have turf wars in some specific areas, and squabbles over power and money.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re Israel and Haredi draft exemption:

First, just to keep the groups straight - Satmar is totally anti-Zionist, so they don't get involved with the Israeli government at all.

There are religious groups that do serve in the army, which are usually called the National Religious or Religious Zionist.

There are also groups that are not anti-Zionist, but which think that their kids should be exempt in order to do religious studies.

Once upon a time, the rabbis asked for this exemption and got it from the secular, socialist Israeli government. I know that Shimon Peres was part of that decision. He says that at the time, it only involved a few hundred boys, the great yeshivas of Europe had just been destroyed in the Holocaust, and there was a genuine fear these boys were the last remnants of all that learning and way of life. They didn't expect that a tiny post-war group would grow so large.

[nausicaa]

Did you mean "during some turbulence"? :lol:

OMG--yes! :embarrassed:

[Eponine]

Are you talking about the East Ramapo school district topic? I want to be clear on who "they" are - unlike Christian fundies, most on this board have no idea who the different groups are.

That case involves the Satmar Hasidic village of Kiryas Yoel in New York. Satmar is isolationist, even by Hasidic standards. The line about making us submit to them is misleading, because they don't really care what the non-Jewish world does. They don't convert people, and do very little outreach even to other Jews. It's not a Dominionist ideology. They do, however, have a massive birth rate (about 10 kids per family), and that does have a real demographic impact. Kiryas Yoel grew 51% during a 6 yr period. So, you've got a community with lots of early marriage, lots of kids, not a lot of secular education, and a desire to keep themselves as separate as possible.

All the kids go to private religious schools, but in New York State, special education and busing is provided by the public school board. The public school board gets the bulk of its budget from local property taxes, and school board officials control that budget. So, you end up with an ever-growing group in that particular school district that want to reduce the taxes that the pay for schools that they will never use, but who also want as much as possible for the few services that they do use. The school board is no longer functional as a result.

Satmar's not my community. It actually regards my community with extreme hostility, so I'm not really neutral when I discuss them, and I rarely meet anyone from that community. Within their community, there are elements of altruism and community spirit and some very active organizations that visit the sick, provide meals, etc. It's the relationship with those outside the community that needs work.

I wanted to second this - Satmar are VERY different from other groups in terms of how they interact with the "outside" world and it especially shows with the Kiryas Yoel case. There are other school districts in the NYC area where the majority of kids go to private Jewish schools and this has never been as much of a problem with the non-Satmar communities (though it's come up from time to time).

I get groups of young women who are varying degrees of Modern to Ultra Orthodox (and every once in a while some type of Hasidic) who come to the secular university where I work, and many come from communities near Kiryas Yoel or similar areas. They tend to study "typical" feminine programs like teaching or nursing and many end up working in places outside their communities. The only group I never, ever see there is the Satmar.

[August]

Are you talking about the East Ramapo school district topic? I want to be clear on who "they" are - unlike Christian fundies, most on this board have no idea who the different groups are.

That case involves the Satmar Hasidic village of Kiryas Yoel in New York. Satmar is isolationist, even by Hasidic standards. The line about making us submit to them is misleading, because they don't really care what the non-Jewish world does. They don't convert people, and do very little outreach even to other Jews. It's not a Dominionist ideology. They do, however, have a massive birth rate (about 10 kids per family), and that does have a real demographic impact. Kiryas Yoel grew 51% during a 6 yr period. So, you've got a community with lots of early marriage, lots of kids, not a lot of secular education, and a desire to keep themselves as separate as possible.

All the kids go to private religious schools, but in New York State, special education and busing is provided by the public school board. The public school board gets the bulk of its budget from local property taxes, and school board officials control that budget. So, you end up with an ever-growing group in that particular school district that want to reduce the taxes that the pay for schools that they will never use, but who also want as much as possible for the few services that they do use. The school board is no longer functional as a result.

Satmar's not my community. It actually regards my community with extreme hostility, so I'm not really neutral when I discuss them, and I rarely meet anyone from that community. Within their community, there are elements of altruism and community spirit and some very active organizations that visit the sick, provide meals, etc. It's the relationship with those outside the community that needs work.

Satmar is a Jewish group, but it also has its own ideology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar_%28 ... 9#Ideology Customs of the group are considered to be like actual traditional Jewish law.

Israel in general is a long way from being a theocracy. Tel Aviv is very secular http://www.gaytlvguide.com/component/co ... -aviv-2014. You do have turf wars in some specific areas, and squabbles over power and money.

They do, very much. Why else would they have taken over the school board and systematically eviscerated the school system? Xenophobia is a common human trait, but it's neither admirable or viable.

I'm in the middle of cooking dinner, but you can''t just decide to have nothing to do with anyone else in the country, that's secession and there's a reason it doesn't happen. Societies don't work that way. Maybe they'd have more luck in somewhere like Liberia or Sudan where they are too busy recovering from war to notice. But eventually they'll set up a system of taxes and come knocking at the door.

[nausicaa]

is there a particular reason they list for ultra-orthodox being exempt? i wonder what would happen if someone ultra-orthodox became more liberal in their beliefs after the normal age of required military service. would they try to force them into the service? or is there a time period for that?

There was another thread awhile ago that went into this, and I thought it was really interesting:

viewtopic.php?f=158&t=20611&hilit

[anjulibai]

I remember reading several articles about the East Ramapo school district and Kiryas Yoel about a year ago. It's really horrible how uncaring the Satmars were towards the needs of the non-Jewish students in the district. They also seemed to blame any push back by the non-Jewish residents as anti-Semitism, which just muddies the whole thing.

What didn't make sense to me was how they can justify that amount of isolation while at the same time demanding resources from the outside world. You can't isolate to that extent without being self-sufficient, which they definitely aren't.

One thing that popped out at me, and goes into that lack of self-sufficiency, is the massive amount of poverty the Jewish families in that community live in. The men mostly just study and the women mostly just keep house or work in community based businesses for low wages.

It seems like a system designed to keep most of the people in a low position.