Homeschool parents/SIX sons charged with sexual abuse of gir

[moodygirl86]

ALL SIX BROTHERS?! What a sick family, and what a poor unfortunate girl to be born into that sick clan, assuming she was.

[DomWackTroll]

I was just over at Daily Kos—one of the most liberal forums online—and even there it’s all “Gotta give the pastor credit†and “Finally, a church that reports abuse…â€

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/1 ... id-NOTHING

[Eponine]

This story is just mind-blowingly horrifying. I don't have anything to add except I'm scratching my head a bit over the timeline here. The girl is 16, and it started 12 years ago when she was 4. That would mean the oldest brother who was arrested would have been 15 when it started. It seems that he's the 4th oldest in the family. It seems unlikely that a group of brothers 15 and younger would just start molesting their baby sister without some kind of idea or example? Could it be that 3 older siblings were doing it as well? Or perhaps they were repeating something they saw in the extended family, or even they/some of them were molested as children? The point being, this really reads to me as a family/community with a history of sexual abuse.

If this case opens the door to investigating the church community there could easily be similar stories in other families and it could indeed be the nail in the coffin.

[DomWackTroll]

Yep, Matthew's expedition was a Vision Forum romp; here he is on their website:

expeditiontopatagonia.com/#!/goals

It makes me sick to keep reading about how "only two" or "only three" members of this family were members of Hope Baptist Church. The entire family was obviously immersed in the VF/NCFIC movement.

ETA: The Expedition to Patagonia was in November 2013, long after Eric confessed to Dan Horn in “late 2012.†Yet Horn and Scott Brown allowed Matthew, who they knew to be a sexual child abuser, to go on a Vision Forum-run trip? I realize Doug wasn’t their favorite person by that point, but they couldn’t even shoot someone else at VF an email? (And no, I don’t believe it’s possible that they didn’t know he was going)

[theologygeek]

How many more children have to suffer before the government steps in and monitors homeschoolers? This just makes me sick.

[takers401]

How many more children have to suffer before the government steps in and monitors homeschoolers? This just makes me sick.

The government currently monitors public schools and look at how much molestation and rape occurs there. I don't think bringing homeschoolers under government oversight will end all horrible acts from occurring.

[theologygeek]

The government currently monitors public schools and look at how much molestation and rape occurs there. I don't think bringing homeschoolers under government oversight will end all horrible acts from occurring.

If it saves one child, it's worth it.

[takers401]

If it saves one child, it's worth it.

But just because there's government oversight doesn't mean that it will save more than it will harm. I think the homeschoolers that are in newspaper headlines for the horrible things they do are the rotten apples of a good alternative schooling option. There's got to be room to find a happy medium between zero oversight (which I don't agree with) or complete government oversight (which I also don't agree with).

[theologygeek]

But just because there's government oversight doesn't mean that it will save more than it will harm. I think the homeschoolers that are in newspaper headlines for the horrible things they do are the rotten apples of a good alternative schooling option. There's got to be room to find a happy medium between zero oversight (which I don't agree with) or complete government oversight (which I also don't agree with).

I doubt that monitoring homeschoolers would do more harm than good. If the parents have nothing to hide, then there's nothing to worry about. I didn't say "complete government oversight." You did. I care about the children, and again, if it saves one child, then it's worth it.

[takers401]

I doubt that monitoring homeschoolers would do more harm than good. If the parents have nothing to hide, then there's nothing to worry about. I didn't say "complete government oversight." You did. I care about the children, and again, if it saves one child, then it's worth it.

Just in case there's doubt, I DO care about children. And I did mention complete government oversight because that's the impression I'm getting of what you're advocating for. If that's not what you're intending then I'm curious how you would have the government be involved?

My personal thoughts are that I agree with the government having some oversight into homeschooling education but not to the extent that they do over current public-school education.

[theologygeek]

Just in case there's doubt, I DO care about children. And I did mention complete government oversight because that's the impression I'm getting of what you're advocating for. If that's not what you're intending then I'm curious how you would have the government be involved?

My personal thoughts are that I agree with the government having some oversight into homeschooling education but not to the extent that they do over current public-school education.

Someone needs to make home visits, and speak to each child individually. Children should be asked what they do for school work, if they are hit and how, how long they do school for, and things of that nature. I don't have a problem with different lesson plans because each child learns differently, so I don't think they have to spend much time with the parent on the chosen curriculum. But they should do home visits. There have been children locked in cages that no one knew about. Something has to intervene.

[Mudball]

How many more children have to suffer before the government steps in and monitors homeschoolers? This just makes me sick.

But monitors how? Like takers401 said, there are plenty of abused children slipping through the cracks in school too.

Who is doing the monitoring? Who here would be comfortable with a super fundie coming into your home to deem your child is being raised properly? I mean, that could happen.

It makes me sick too, it really does, but this child was failed by people. I am sure there were adults in her life that ignored their guts, either that or the abusive family was just that good at keeping secrets as they so often are. I don't have a ton of hope that a yearly visit by a stranger would have changed things for her.

[Mama Mia]

Someone needs to make home visits, and speak to each child individually. Children should be asked what they do for school work, if they are hit and how, how long they do school for, and things of that nature. I don't have a problem with different lesson plans because each child learns differently, so I don't think they have to spend much time with the parent on the chosen curriculum. But they should do home visits. There have been children locked in cages that no one knew about. Something has to intervene.

Since most kids go to public school, the odds are very, very good that the vast majority of children who are abused by a parent are abused at home, outside of school hours. Also physical abuse and neglect are most frequent, and often most dangerous, before children are even school aged. Neglect in particular is most dangerous for toddlers as they can't keep themselves safe. I don't know that a periodic visit to the homes of home schooled school aged children would do a whole lot to change any of that.

A co-worker of mine was taken out of school in the second grade. When an official came to the house ( she doesn't know if it was a school truancy officer, or CPS, or something else) , her parents just had her hide under the bed and told them they had sent her to live with her grandparents in Mexico. I think a problem with mandated home visits is that if the parents are chronically abusive /neglectful they will know what to say, and what to have the kids say, to be left alone.

I think I would have less problem with some sort of annual home visit if it was resource oriented, and applied to ALL families with children, whatever the schooling method was - public, private or home. Maybe a Home Visitor who just goes during each child's birth month, and gives a packet of developmentally appropriate information, resource listings and maybe a book for the kid. Something non-threatening and that might open the doors of communication.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Since most kids go to public school, the odds are very, very good that the vast majority of children who are abused by a parent are abused at home, outside of school hours. Also physical abuse and neglect are most frequent, and often most dangerous, before children are even school aged. Neglect in particular is most dangerous for toddlers as they can't keep themselves safe. I don't know that a periodic visit to the homes of home schooled school aged children would do a whole lot to change any of that.

I know you love to stand up for homeschooling but that is complete bullshit. If kids are starved and beaten and go to public school, the teacher notices. It is the kids never seen by the outside world who are in real danger, the ones never taken to the doctor or seen by another adult because the parents keep them at home.

There needs to be much tighter regulations around home schooling. In some states there is almost no standards at all-- including the Duggar's home state where I think they are tested but don't have to pass anything. I would like to see regulations that include home visits, physical and mental testing of the children, and testing of the person in charge of the home schooling. Also some basic educational materials that must be read and understood-- none of this wisdom book crap.

[theologygeek]

I know you love to stand up for homeschooling but that is complete bullshit. If kids are starved and beaten and go to public school, the teacher notices. It is the kids never seen by the outside world who are in real danger, the ones never taken to the doctor or seen by another adult because the parents keep them at home.

There needs to be much tighter regulations around home schooling. In some states there is almost no standards at all-- including the Duggar's home state where I think they are tested but don't have to pass anything. I would like to see regulations that include home visits, physical and mental testing of the children, and testing of the person in charge of the home schooling. Also some basic educational materials that must be read and understood-- none of this wisdom book crap.

This is exactly how I feel.

[DomWackTroll]

James McDonald on Facebook: “A prayer for all us Facebook users today... ‘Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart (and the keystrokes of my keyboard) be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.’â€

facebook.com/james.mcdonald1/posts/10203545857265536

ETA Stacy: “In reference to my earlier comment, please know that my intent was not to be snarky or maliciously allusive. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then be glad and move on. It's just Facebook.

But to those who do know what I'm talking about, keep in mind, it is easy to sit back and judge what your elders or other authorities should have done in difficult, often tragic or heartbreaking circumstances. But it's very, very prideful to do so.

People have no idea how many hours of tears, prayer, work, outside counsel, daily attacks, and self-doubting that goes on when their elders are faced with difficult leadership issues and decisions. Most of the elders I know take their responsibility very, very seriously - and it's a heavy one - and more often than not, a painful one. So, as an elder's wife, it's doubly frustrating to hear so many people seem to think they 'could have done it better.' You honestly have no idea.

And, in this case, my status was not inspired by anything going on in our life in particular - I just recognize the trauma when I scroll through my feed lately. I see pain, I see abuse, I see abuse of abuse, I see opportunists, I see gossip, I see hatred, I see bitterness, I see slander, I see judgment. And I see very, very little grace or love - even by those who scream about it the loudest.â€

facebook.com/stacy.mcdonald/posts/10202980506505767

[tropaka]

This is exactly how I feel.

Don't be so sure. I endured some pretty horrific violence and substance abuse in my home, and no one noticed. If they did, I probably wouldn't own up to it at the time. This girl was being sexually abused, but if a home visit found everyone clean and polite it would have flown under the radar (of course, having a yard of full of hoarded metal with a big security gate might have put up a red flag). Most children do attend school outside the home, therefore most abused kids come into outside contact, and many, like me (and quite a few of my friends) never come under the eye of CPS.

While I believe homeschoolers should be monitored re curriculum it seems you're advocating for even more oversight than the children in the school system. It's the fear of this that drives some of the nuts we discuss here into doing things like not registering their marriages or even childrens' births. No amount of rules and regulations are going to help those kids. In my neck of the woods parents must opt out of the public boards and provide an outline of curriculum. Public Health notifies parents (and schools if the child attends) of required immunizations etc., so the kids are at least on the public radar, if nominally. Again, if the parents decide to fly under the radar no amount regulation will touch them if they're insular and isolated.

[Othello]

HOT DAMN. And to think that I at one point attended Hope Baptist. A good percentage of the Jacksons' FB friends I am familiar with or at one point considered friends. Wow. This is crazy.

[DomWackTroll]

Jordan Muela's Facebook page is private, so I don't think I can go into detail about it here, but over on the Spiritual Souding Board thread they are reporting about a post he wrote on the Jackson family's ties to Kevin Swanson and the McDonalds.

[Arete]

Don't be so sure. I endured some pretty horrific violence and substance abuse in my home, and no one noticed. If they did, I probably wouldn't own up to it at the time. This girl was being sexually abused, but if a home visit found everyone clean and polite it would have flown under the radar (of course, having a yard of full of hoarded metal with a big security gate might have put up a red flag). Most children do attend school outside the home, therefore most abused kids come into outside contact, and many, like me (and quite a few of my friends) never come under the eye of CPS.

While I believe homeschoolers should be monitored re curriculum it seems you're advocating for even more oversight than the children in the school system. It's the fear of this that drives some of the nuts we discuss here into doing things like not registering their marriages or even childrens' births. No amount of rules and regulations are going to help those kids. In my neck of the woods parents must opt out of the public boards and provide an outline of curriculum. Public Health notifies parents (and schools if the child attends) of required immunizations etc., so the kids are at least on the public radar, if nominally. Again, if the parents decide to fly under the radar no amount regulation will touch them if they're insular and isolated.

I agree. Home visits are never going to be able to uncover something as deeply hidden as this level of sexual abuse. Most children who are sexually abused are not homeschooled. They are public schooled, respectable, and out in the open and no one picks up anything. And I am on the extreme end, and think homeschooling should be very tightly controlled from a mandatory core teaching standards point of view. Allowing people to simply walk into a home because the kids are homeschooled? No, hell no.

[tropaka]

When the brothers turned themselves in, most of them were emotionless.

“The first kid, it seems to be like a relief, but even when they came to turn themselves in last week, it was like, ‘We’re here.’ I don’t think they know the magnitude of what they’ve done because I don’t think they knew it was wrong,†says Sheriff Tilley, “They haven’t been taught any differently. I’m not sure when that’s going to sink in exactly what they were doing was wrong.

If there's a hell, the parents and at least the eldest boys should burn in it. The younger kids probably thought this was normal behaviour - in addition to the girl, the boys closest to her in age must have been instructed by the older boys and I have to wonder if they're both victims and perpetrators. So fucked up. Also fucked up - having to ask your father for permission (as an adult) to confess a sex crime/incest.

[freehannie]

I am not sure what the answer is but the main reasoning used in the conservative wing of homeschooling is that parents know what is best for their children and are in the best position to make decisions for them. This completely ignores that most abuse that happens to children occurs at home or with people the children know. Some parents do not have their children's best interests at heart and in fact use their children for their own interests. By encouraging fear of the government, neighbors, virtually everyone, some of these families become more and more isolated and for those who abuse, there are very few opportunities for anyone to discover what is going on. Unless the homeschooling movement comes up with a clear, proactive plan to deal with this, I see no other option than governmental regulation. I do think though that people need to start pushing back on this ideology that parents always know best. Unchecked power over vulnerable people is never a good idea.

[Arete]

Oh, almost forgot: Could someone please tell Stacy McDonald to STFU? None of this is a about her.

Thank you.

[takers401]

Someone needs to make home visits, and speak to each child individually. Children should be asked what they do for school work, if they are hit and how, how long they do school for, and things of that nature. I don't have a problem with different lesson plans because each child learns differently, so I don't think they have to spend much time with the parent on the chosen curriculum. But they should do home visits. There have been children locked in cages that no one knew about. Something has to intervene.

My issue with mandated home visits is that it creates an assumption that if you homeschool you're abusing your kids. I agree that kids that go to school have a more frequent "abuse check" than homeschooled kids, but homeschooled kids go to the doctor, church, stores, etc where people also pay attention and make well-check phone calls.

I would rather see a focus on modifying homeschool laws to include more consistent across-state oversight. I don't think Arkansas should have such wildly different criteria from California. Some expectations will be different based on culture, location, developmental abilities, etc but I don't think there's needs to be such a difference just because of what your zip code is. I don't think programs should be outlawed or required but if a child isn't meeting milestones because they are using a certain lesson plan then intervening steps might be taken.

The overall feeling I'm getting (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you feel that homeschooling is a fringe option that is used a lot by child abusers where I feel that it's a viable alternative learning method that is used by good parents, but the bad apples in that group make a bad name for all. If this is how you feel (again, I could be wildly wrong) then I think it explains why we come at the problem from such different angles.

[starfish]

This is exactly how I feel.

Sing it sisters, I agree also.