Lourdes and Nolan marry - Lawsuit against DPIAT/R filed

[WonderingInWA]

To Hero, I applaud your remarkable courage :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: If there are any other Doug Phillips victims out there, I hope they can follow your brave footsteps.

Many, many, happy Congratulations on your marriage. May you have a beautiful life together.

A thought regarding Beall has crossed my mind, especially after reading the Vision Forum letter just posted. If what is in there, is what Doug told Beall, she may not have had a clue to some of the things coming out in this document, or were previously mentioned, such as 'her death'. If Beall is reading this information for the first time, I cannot imagine how much greater the betrayal must feel. I am going to cut her some slack here, as I just don't know what stories she has been told and what information she has been privy to. Not only that, but I suspect her life must be a living hell right now. She is in a horrible position, no matter what way you look at it. As was mentioned earlier, she may well not have written that letter, or she may have, but it might have been forced upon her. I am at a loss of words for the grief I feel for those children!

I have been following this since last fall. Could someone clue me in, please, did Peter and family actually move to WA state, or did they go there to visit his family? I never read that it was a move, but perhaps I missed that detail.

I don't think it's ever been verifiable, but not beyond belief. If anyone knew their actual address in NC, it would be easy to tell if they'd moved just driving by. They were in Seattle a few months ago because Kelly checked in from there, and Sippy's parents live about two hours away.

[Palimpsest]

VF, Inc. and VFM very likely had occurrence insurance policies in effect every year of the abuse. The entities are brought into the suit for two reasons: to attach to any assets that might still exist and to trigger the applicable insurance policies. Going after the other board members would trigger the same policies without the added burden of proving actual knowledge or conscious indifference of each board member. Additionally, Texas homestead laws are very favorable....the board members are very likely judgment proof.

Thanks, Aggie. That makes sense.

[Toothfairy]

Things are just getting worser and worser for fundies.

[Flyinthesoup]

I don't think it's ever been verifiable, but not beyond belief. If anyone knew their actual address in NC, it would be easy to tell if they'd moved just driving by. They were in Seattle a few months ago because Kelly checked in from there, and Sippy's parents live about two hours away.

Thank you! I was trying to put this in perspective with reading WND and the information that the Vision Forum Ministries board of directors had been made aware of Doug Phillip's actions in early 2013. If Peter found out that his FIL knew, but never did anything about it, that would be a double slap in the face for him. Man this is all messed up! I hope Peter, Kelly and family can get rest, re-evaluate some of their decisions and get healthy!

[ThisOlGirl]

I'm assuming there will be a discovery process where Dougie, VFM and VF Inc. will have to hand over all kinds of documentation as potential evidence (I know nothing about how the legal process works unless you count all the episodes of Law & Order: SVU I've watched). If a judge sees something hinky going on with The financials of VFM or VF Inc., is he under any obligation to turn that info over to the proper authorities? I'm still hoping Dougie will have to do some jail time for something. I'll take financial shenanigans.

[hoipolloi]

I don't think it's ever been verifiable, but not beyond belief. If anyone knew their actual address in NC, it would be easy to tell if they'd moved just driving by. They were in Seattle a few months ago because Kelly checked in from there, and Sippy's parents live about two hours away.

The fact that mention of Peter & Kelly has been scrubbed from things like the following (blurb for Our Marriages and the Marriages of Our Sons & Daughters, at ncfic.org/events/view/our-marriages-and-the-marriages-of-our-sons-and-daughters-2015) is indicative of a parting of the ways.

This is one of my favorite gatherings. It is small and intimate and it takes place in our home - my favorite place on the planet. We limit the group size to 24 couples and we spend the whole time in our living room. Deborah and I have been married for 29 years. My parents, Bill and Mary Brown, who have been married for 63 years are a very special addition. We also will have all of our married children with us and that provides many opportunities for conversation about matters of getting married. David and Monica have been married 3 years, and Taylor and Blair about 3 years.

[theologygeek]

Who is Hero? The only two I can keep up with are Zsu and the Maxwells. I'm so lost.

[Flyinthesoup]

The fact that mention of Peter & Kelly has been scrubbed from things like the following (blurb for Our Marriages and the Marriages of Our Sons & Daughters, at ncfic.org/events/view/our-marriages-and-the-marriages-of-our-sons-and-daughters-2015) is indicative of a parting of the ways.

Agreed! I just wondered if it had been verified and I missed it, or if it was still speculation based on the comments. What a mess!!

[Maxwell]

Who is Hero? The only two I can keep up with are Zsu and the Maxwells. I'm so lost.

If you've read the WND article, Hero is the lady who filed the lawsuit. An ex-nanny for the Phillips.

[WonderingInWA]

Agreed! I just wondered if it had been verified and I missed it, or if it was still speculation based on the comments. What a mess!!

I think Sippy is trying very hard to fly under the radar but he's not going to escape it. He was such an emboldened asshat for the past 10 years, running away now won't save him. He bought DPIAT's philosophy hook line and sinker. His father set him up for his internship and then he ended up being the golden child. He will be subpoenaed for sure, no matter where he is found hiding. He's "sad" to learn his mentor is a pervert, but it's a life lesson to pass down to his children and hopefully a huge eye-opener for his wife. And Scott Brown has forced the Kool-Aid, too, so we shall see how easily he gets off and what his defense is for being a part of VF as long as he was.

[theologygeek]

If you've read the WND article, Hero is the lady who filed the lawsuit. An ex-nanny for the Phillips.

I didn't read the article. So it was the nanny. I had a feeling it was her.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I don't think it's ever been verifiable, but not beyond belief. If anyone knew their actual address in NC, it would be easy to tell if they'd moved just driving by. They were in Seattle a few months ago because Kelly checked in from there, and Sippy's parents live about two hours away.

I don't know that the move is permanent as in forever, but it is at least temporarily permanent, if that makes sense. It seems Peter was quite "thrown" by this whole mess, and needed to regroup and figure out where to go from here. I only know this because we have mutual friends.

[Soulhuntress]

Congrats to the happy couple!

[Flyinthesoup]

The fact that mention of Peter & Kelly has been scrubbed from things like the following (blurb for Our Marriages and the Marriages of Our Sons & Daughters, at ncfic.org/events/view/our-marriages-and-the-marriages-of-our-sons-and-daughters-2015) is indicative of a parting of the ways.

After reading this quote again, with respect to what Scott Brown has on his web site, this makes me ill!!! He's a liar! If Kelly and Peter are not there, then ALL his married children are not with them, unless Peter and Kelly are no longer married. So you just forget you have another married child? Really? Is this the way it's done???!!! :o I hope he's shaking in his boots and I hope his ministry is taken down!

All Vision Forum Ministry members of the board should be held accountable.

[theologygeek]

Well, I just read the article. It boggles my mind how this can happen to a 24 year old, but my mind is thinking of my own 24 year old daughter who would have called the police if a man did anything she didn't want him to do. Hey fundies who lurk here. Do you want your kid to go through this hell? Keep sheltering them from the world, so they don't know how to handle themselves in the world.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

After reading this quote again, with respect to what Scott Brown has on his web site, this makes me ill!!! He's a liar! If Kelly and Peter are not there, then ALL his married children are not with them, unless Peter and Kelly are no longer married. So you just forget you have another married child? Really? Is this the way it's done???!!! :o I hope he's shaking in his boots and I hope his ministry is taken down!

All Vision Forum Ministry members of the board should be held accountable.

This was discussed a while back. I'm pretty sure it originally included Kelly and Peter, and whoever edited them out neglected to reword the other sentence.

[Howl]

Was the suit filed in Bexar County (San Antonio) rather than Kendall County (Boerne)? A San Antonio (large city) jury would be very, very different animal than a Boerne (primarily rural) jury.

[Flyinthesoup]

I don't know that the move is permanent as in forever, but it is at least temporarily permanent, if that makes sense. It seems Peter was quite "thrown" by this whole mess, and needed to regroup and figure out where to go from here. I only know this because we have mutual friends.

Thanks for giving more clarity to this. I hope Peter and Kelly can heal and start new, with a new way of thinking.

[Flyinthesoup]

This was discussed a while back. I'm pretty sure it originally included Kelly and Peter, and whoever edited them out neglected to reword the other sentence.

I remember the discussion, but I didn't remember that part of it. I sure hope that's all it was.

[Arete]

Well, I just read the article. It boggles my mind how this can happen to a 24 year old, but my mind is thinking of my own 24 year old daughter who would have called the police if a man did anything she didn't want him to do. Hey fundies who lurk here. Do you want your kid to go through this hell? Keep sheltering them from the world, so they don't know how to handle themselves in the world.

The thing is, they can shelter from the world all they want, they are still setting up their children as prey within their insular communities. Hero wasn't used by someone in the world, she was used by the supposed flower of Christian fatherhood.

But that is still her or her family's fault for not "testing everything DP said against the Bible." Nope, nothing wrong with the whole phallic worshipping system of patriarchy folks, move along, move along.

[Peas n carrots]

Doug has set up his life to revolve around subjugating and degrading women. It's disturbing on many different levels...what happens to a person to turn them this way?

The words that ran through my head while reading the document:

Revolting

Humiliating

Degrading

Perverted

Disgusting

What a sick fuck.

Onto the good news...congrats to the Manteufels. It's going to be rough in the upcoming months, and I wish them all the strength to weather the storm.

[jaelh]

Was the suit filed in Bexar County (San Antonio) rather than Kendall County (Boerne)? A San Antonio (large city) jury would be very, very different animal than a Boerne (primarily rural) jury.

from angie, pg 6:

Because the suit is filed in Bexar county, the entire case file will be available online here: http://apps.bexar.org/search/search.html under cause number 2014CI05999.

the big city it is.

and congratulations to the new couple. wishing you much joy in your lives together.

[Marian the Librarian]

A Botkin has finally spoken - and it's cousin Katie:

"In Which Lourdes Petitions for a Lifeboat"

The date may be significant, or it may not. This morning, April 15, on the 102nd anniversary of the Titanic sinking, Lourdes Torres filed a civil suit against Doug Phillips, self-styled leader of the Christian patriarchy movement and the founder of the Christian Men And Boys Titanic Society. The Society, and Doug Phillips in particular, commemorated the sinking of the Titanic annually, praising the patriarchal Christian men who sacrificed their lives in favor of putting “women and children first.†Naturally, that’s not entirely true; the survival rate of first-class men aboard the Titanic was greater than the survival rate of third-class children. And perhaps this is significant, or perhaps it is not, but Lourdes Torres, the only daughter of an immigrant family, met Doug Phillips when she was 15, and shortly thereafter was invited up from her family’s mobile home to partake in Phillip’s far more lavish lifestyle, as a sort of unsalaried servant; she helped with household chores and childcare. She was rewarded with trips, gifts, pocket money, and the assurance from Doug Phillips that she was “part of the family.â€

Lourdes’ complaint quotes Julie Ingersoll, noting that “In biblical patriarchy, the refrain of ‘women and children first’ hides an agenda whereby the women are ‘first’ only insofar as they keep their place which is subordinate to men . . . tragically, a biblical woman is also ‘first’ to take the blame for marital problems, ‘first’ to be excommunicated as part of church discipline, ‘first’ to serve her father and then her husband in his vision for dominion.†The complaint also points out that some other proponents of biblical patriarchy, namely Bill Gothard and Jack Schaap, “have stepped down or are incarcerated for crimes against children.â€

In October 2007, 23-year-old Lourdes was invited to move in with the Phillips family. According to her complaint, shortly thereafter, she found the man who headed up the community she was part of, her spiritual authority figure and pseudo-employer, in her bedroom, sexually assaulting her. There was no penetration, so Phillips didn’t technically lie when years later he claimed that he hadn’t “known†Lourdes “in the Biblical sense.†Lourdes said she cried and asked him to stop, but he didn’t. This behavior continued over a period of some years, despite Lourdes’ repeated requests that it stop.

Phillip’s lawyer claims that all sexual activity (not that there was any, according to the lawyer) was consensual, and that Lourdes is out for some cash rewards. He says she’s given different accounts of what happened to different people.

And I say, so what? That’s normal. You don’t tell every person in the world the exact gory details about how your (pseudo) pastor/ (pseudo) employer assaulted you until you’re good and ready. Especially if that pastor/employer is a lawyer who excommunicates people on charges of gossip and threatens them with “slander†lawsuits to boot. As so what if she’s out for cash now? She put her education, her work and everything else on hold in order to serve Doug Phillips, often free of charge. The least he can do is make good on his promise to spare her a lifeboat before his ship is finished sinking.

The complaint does a good job of outlining how the community the Phillips presided over was a “total institution†where all outside influence and opportunity was barred. Lourdes relied on Phillips for sustenance, both physical and spiritual. As a result, Lourdes was technically incapable of consenting to sexual advances from Phillips. By her own admission, she did not verbally resist every time, and even says she loved him, but this in no way is an indication of consent; it merely highlights the extent of the abuse.

I first heard of Lourdes Torres in 2007, because she appeared in a film (shot before Lourdes moved in with the Phillips family) that my cousins produced and then sent us: The Return of the Daughters. I was so struck by her engaging personality and her desire to serve other people that I e-mailed my cousin and said, half-jokingly, “I noticed that Lourdes seemed a good, spunky, pretty and intelligent type of the San Antonio area, so I thought that I would write and recommend that you wed her posthaste. Not that I know anything about it.â€

Remembering that confident and hopeful woman, I almost cried reading the complaint. Which is definitely the first time I’ve ever been so moved reading a legal document, and I’ve read a fair number. Despite the claims of conflicting stories and the fact that I really don’t know her at all, the complaint rings very true to me. If Lourdes was merely out to play the victim, as some posit, she could have claimed Phillips assaulted her when she was underage, because she was frequently in his home when she was underage. She could have claimed he did other sexual things to her, or that he threatened her, or any number of things. But she didn’t. She’s outlining a very specific and a very believable train of events, given everything we know about Doug Phillips, the nature of sociopaths, the nature of power and sexuality, and all the rest of it.

(I have to say, I'm very glad Katie's attempt at matchmaking Lourdes with whichever male Botkin cousin she had in mind didn't succeed. :pink-shock: )

kbotkin.com

[Closed Womb]

In the other DP thread, someone noted that the lawsuit was filed on the anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic. If this was on purpose, it was a beautifully subtle message to the Tool.

Eta: just read Marian's post and now I feel stupid.

[Curious]

After reading this quote again, with respect to what Scott Brown has on his web site, this makes me ill!!! He's a liar! If Kelly and Peter are not there, then ALL his married children are not with them, unless Peter and Kelly are no longer married. So you just forget you have another married child? Really? Is this the way it's done???!!! :o I hope he's shaking in his boots and I hope his ministry is taken down!

All Vision Forum Ministry members of the board should be held accountable.

Bradrick may try and disassociate himself from DPIAT, but it won't be so easy when there are things like this out there: