Internalized Misogyny - Slighty OT

[keeperrox]

For example, clibbyjo (and maybe others above) have said their girls have been much easier to raise.

Huh?

I do agree that my girl is MUCH harder to raise than the boys.(so far). My 15 year old is so easy going and he never gets mad. The girl flies off the handle and screams for the slightest thing.

Seriously, I'll go out on a limb and say that I've never heard that adolescent girls are easier to raise than boys. I've heard the exact opposite. I HAVE heard that toddler girls are easier to raise than toddler boys, but that's not really an age where anyone "hates" anyone else.

[forever ago]

I grew up in a rural Southern town where women apparently did nothing but gossip. Oh, they worked, usually part-time but the rest of their time was spent gossiping. I loathe girls because that's what girls are encouraged to do- spend all their time worrying about drama, and fashion, and kids, and school, and work, and periods- and then get catty and manipulative when someone dares to be different. Jealously is a HUGE problem for girls and women. It's much easier to make friends with guys, because they don't get catty and manipulative. They're not taught to do that.

Personally I think we teach girls this to keep them "in their place". It's fucked up. Women are supposed to be and have everything. Men don't have the pressure that women do to look good, work, and raise kids. Men can express anger. Women can't, and so we become cruel and catty.

On top of that there's slut-shaming, but at the same time, what girls are supposed to wear is not exactly... modest. I'm really not trying to talk as a fundie, but just what the fuck do you think some of our clothes are supposed to show off? Fundies have a point about modesty (they take it to the extreme, definitely). And the fact that "oh, she couldn't have been raped, she looked hot in that outfit so she was asking for it" is still a mainstream attitude... Girls cannot fucking win.

[Olivia]

I call bullshit on the idea that women are "cattier" or more dramatic than men. I work in a predominantly male environment, and the men I know are every bit as gossipy, moody, and prone to engaging in subtle put-downs and holding grudges as the women. I think we are just less inclined to identify these behaviors as such when men engage in them.

Yeah, I'm in a predominantly male work environment as well and men do seem just as gossipy to me as women. They also have just as much of an interest, in my experience, in discussing relationships!

[Austin]

I read a book a couple of years ago on female social aggression. I think it was called something like Queen Bees and Wannabees. It was very good and helped me understand why some women are so competitive and socially aggressive, all the while with a "keep sweet" smile on their faces. These were the types of women who made me not want to join the PTA or the band boosters. Forty year old women acting like high-schoolers is just appalling to me and I feel like an alien around them. One would think that behavior stops when people grow up, but with a certain segment, it doesn't.

[lilah]

I tend to get along better with guys but I chalk that up to my geeky interests. I would say I am closer to my female firends though so it balances out.

I remember working in a largely female dominated officee and we had a big meeting to brainstorm something. My idea got shot down but when a guy said almost the same thing he was compli,ented for being so profound.

[Shoobydoo]

I tend to get along better with guys but I chalk that up to my geeky interests. I would say I am closer to my female firends though so it balances out.

Isn't that also a form of internalized misogyny? I pisses me off to no end when people assume that girls can't be geeky, or that only boys are allowed to like video games. It's the exact same bullshit that says girls aren't supposed to play sports. Women are just as capable of like Star Trek and WoW as men.

This one especially irritates me because my entire life I have extremely "geeky" interests, and there's a possibility I'll spend a lot of time in a traditional "male geek" field. There's just as much of an anti-feminine attitude in the geek industries as there is in management and other male dominated fields.

Edited because I keep changing my sentence structures in the middle of sentences.

[treemom]

But it wasn't all that long ago that it was trendy to feel sorry for boys, to say that our culture didn't value boys, that boys had a harder time growing up, etc., etc. I don't know that our culture encourages an anti-girl or an anti-boy bias. I am just cynical enough to think it's whatever pop-psychologist is trying to sell books at any given moment. Everyone's mileage is going to vary.

For example, clibbyjo (and maybe others above) have said their girls have been much easier to raise. I have only one of each, but my daughter (12 and pubescent) is definitely more compliant, more open and less moody than her almost-15-year-old brother. And it's been that way since they could talk, so it's not just that he's having a hard adolescence; and it's the same with both DH and me, so it's not like one parent gets a different response than the other. So I think it's hard to be general. Now DD does have a lot of girl drama, but DS has his share of guy drama too--mostly over girls, but not always.

I think what we say about any sort of gender is bad for both of them.

I will say my son confounds me...but it may be him and not the gender.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Women are just as capable of like Star Trek and WoW as men.

.

Definitely true, but it's less encouraged socially and there's so much misogyny in geek culture that it probably turns away at least some would-be women geeks. I game but I've been in many a situation where I was with a bunch of dudes and it was just a super unfriendly environment (mostly when I was younger, because I wouldn't put up with it now). You know, dudes yelling OHHHH YOU JUST GOT RAPED! WHAT A FAG. or inviting me to play a new game then berating me for lacking skill.

[Shoobydoo]

Definitely true, but it's less encouraged socially and there's so much misogyny in geek culture that it probably turns away at least some would-be women geeks. I game but I've been in many a situation where I was with a bunch of dudes and it was just a super unfriendly environment (mostly when I was younger, because I wouldn't put up with it now). You know, dudes yelling OHHHH YOU JUST GOT RAPED! WHAT A FAG. or inviting me to play a new game then berating me for lacking skill.

Isn't that what this thread is about? Discussing attitudes that have been built into our culture that belittle women and their abilities and interests? I'm griping about pretty much what you just said.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Isn't that what this thread is about? Discussing attitudes that have been built into our culture that belittle women and their abilities and interests? I'm griping about pretty much what you just said.

Yeah, I just felt like saying some shit. I maybe shouldn't have said 'but' because that makes it sound like I'm disagreeing with you - I was more trying to add on to what you said and talk about why there are fewer women gamers and whatnot.

[Shoobydoo]

Yeah, I just felt like saying some shit. I maybe shouldn't have said 'but' because that makes it sound like I'm disagreeing with you - I was more trying to add on to what you said.

Understood- I was a little confused at first because it sounded like you were making the same points I was. Then it turned out that you were!

[Shirley MacLaine]

Yeah... what can I say? I really like to hear myself talk :P

[snarkykitty]

I read a book a couple of years ago on female social aggression. I think it was called something like Queen Bees and Wannabees. It was very good and helped me understand why some women are so competitive and socially aggressive, all the while with a "keep sweet" smile on their faces. These were the types of women who made me not want to join the PTA or the band boosters. Forty year old women acting like high-schoolers is just appalling to me and I feel like an alien around them. One would think that behavior stops when people grow up, but with a certain segment, it doesn't.

This is the book upon which Tina Fey based her screenplay, "Mean Girls."

[lilah]

Isn't that also a form of internalized misogyny? I pisses me off to no end when people assume that girls can't be geeky, or that only boys are allowed to like video games. It's the exact same bullshit that says girls aren't supposed to play sports. Women are just as capable of like Star Trek and WoW as men.

This one especially irritates me because my entire life I have extremely "geeky" interests, and there's a possibility I'll spend a lot of time in a traditional "male geek" field. There's just as much of an anti-feminine attitude in the geek industries as there is in management and other male dominated fields.

Edited because I keep changing my sentence structures in the middle of sentences.

I suppose its an expression of internalized misogyny but its the honest truth that i dont have any female friends save one who like to play video games. If I could find more female friends who shared that interest I would be happy. But my female friends and I have other common interests.

I would have to agree that yeah some geeks are just as misogynist, thers a lot of entitlement and misplaced agression towards women. I used to revel in being the speshuk snowflake geek girl but realized I needed to instead speak out and speak up for other women instead of bashing them.

[Anycah]

Isn't that also a form of internalized misogyny? I pisses me off to no end when people assume that girls can't be geeky, or that only boys are allowed to like video games. It's the exact same bullshit that says girls aren't supposed to play sports. Women are just as capable of like Star Trek and WoW as men.

This one especially irritates me because my entire life I have extremely "geeky" interests, and there's a possibility I'll spend a lot of time in a traditional "male geek" field. There's just as much of an anti-feminine attitude in the geek industries as there is in management and other male dominated fields.

Edited because I keep changing my sentence structures in the middle of sentences.

Yeah, "GIRLS DON'T PLAY WOW" / "THERE ARE NO GIRLS ON THE INTERNET" even in the trolling sense got old rather quickly. And then you're berated for being humorless if you don't take it...

HOWEVER, I have been involved in various geeky spheres for years (high level WoW raiding, video games, pen and paper roleplaying, live-action roleplaying, etc), and have been one of the few, the proud, the female in these spheres. I've had a few moments of harassment, a lot of irritating forms of special treatment / discomfort, but I've been lucky not to be too badly treated. Part of this was the crowd I am part of, but I hate, hate, hate to say that I think a large part of it is coming into these groups as part of a married couple. I'd be more annoyed, but it saved me a lot of harassment while I played WoW with my husband.

I do see that a lot of the women I know have self-esteem issues and often sell themselves short, even when ridiculously talented. I also hate the "I only get along with boys teehee" crap because, well, then they're insulting me, aren't they?

I will say that in my social groups, the men are overall more high maintenance and just as capable of being "catty" like women traditionally are. That isn't to say that I don't have high maintenance female friends, but I find that my ability to get along with anyone isn't based on their gender. I got lucky with my work and I haven't had the feeling that my gender is going to be an issue. I am in a female dominated department though (supply chain at an engineering firm)

I have a toddler daughter, and while she can be challenging on occasion, I would say that her "challenging" aspects are ones that are traditionally male in nature (obsessive, very physically active, and disobedience). She's overall a very easy baby, though. I don't have a son for comparison, but my nephews are terrible D:

[Anycah]

I suppose its an expression of internalized misogyny but its the honest truth that i dont have any female friends save one who like to play video games. If I could find more female friends who shared that interest I would be happy. But my female friends and I have other common interests.

I would have to agree that yeah some geeks are just as misogynist, thers a lot of entitlement and misplaced agression towards women. I used to revel in being the speshuk snowflake geek girl but realized I needed to instead speak out and speak up for other women instead of bashing them.

I never knew more than two or so women playing WoW at a time, but all the women I know play video games of some variety (and it's not Farmville). The men in my circles are more hardcore, and their female counterparts more likely to just watch and comment, but we all play all sorts of stuff. Keep looking and broadening horizons (if it bugs you anyway)! If you don't mind being like a theater geek in the woods, local LARPs are usually great places to find female gamers. A more RP based LARP tends to gather a decent amount of geeky women.

The benefit of getting more involved in gaming in college (and being part of a group that was like 22+) was that while I did run into the occasional guy that was awkward with girls and thought that I was primo material because "I was there," most of my acquaintances have been great, especially the hardcore LARPers I know. I think I was shielded a lot because of my association with my husband, but I guess you can't win them all.

[Shoobydoo]

I never knew more than two or so women playing WoW at a time, but all the women I know play video games of some variety (and it's not Farmville). The men in my circles are more hardcore, and their female counterparts more likely to just watch and comment, but we all play all sorts of stuff. Keep looking and broadening horizons (if it bugs you anyway)! If you don't mind being like a theater geek in the woods, local LARPs are usually great places to find female gamers. A more RP based LARP tends to gather a decent amount of geeky women.

The benefit of getting more involved in gaming in college (and being part of a group that was like 22+) was that while I did run into the occasional guy that was awkward with girls and thought that I was primo material because "I was there," most of my acquaintances have been great, especially the hardcore LARPers I know. I think I was shielded a lot because of my association with my husband, but I guess you can't win them all.

That sounds a lot like my friends- they're varied, but I have no female friends at all who don't participate in some form of geekdom, be it Nintendo obsessions, cosplay, western comics, etc.... I just wish that guy geeks and girl geeks would get more integrated. Or that the better class of guy geek (of which I'm happy I know many) would tell their less savory counterparts to stop treating women like strange animals who have nothing in common with them and aren't allowed to like the same things. It's really sad when you can't even play a game without it turning into Us vs. Them.

I do know a few LARPers who seem like nice people, but I'm not as interested in role playing as I was when I was a teenager. I won't say I'd never do it, but it'd probably be something I do with friends as opposed to for making friends.