Children and gender

[ladidah]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I generally agree with that statement, except I do personally see it happen with little boys too. I think it's just different groups who worry. More traditionalist people seem to worry more about boys doing anything girly, while more "progressive" ( scare quotes intentional) people worry about the girls being too girly. Either way, the message is the same- traditionally feminine =bad.

Agreed! I've lived among both gender-traditional and feminist communities over the course of my life and have experienced both sides of this phenomenon. My own stereotypically "masculine" habits (slouching, interrupting, not always dressing in a sufficiently "feminine" manner) got different responses in different communities. But "feminine" traits (others' or mine, depending) were stigmatized in both types of settings.

And, as someone who was rather peeved at the airport when a passing student most likely from the school I teach at called me and my husband "heteronormative" because I was the one changing my baby's diaper, I just want to say:

(1) Sometimes the "Who will change the diaper?" question has less to do with gender than with who needs to go to the bathroom before the plane boards, and

(2) "Heteronormative." I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Mama Mia]

Agreed! I've lived among both gender-traditional and feminist communities over the course of my life and have experienced both sides of this phenomenon. My own stereotypically "masculine" habits (slouching, interrupting, not always dressing in a sufficiently "feminine" manner) got different responses in different communities. But "feminine" traits (others' or mine, depending) were stigmatized in both types of settings.

And, as someone who was rather peeved at the airport when a passing student most likely from the school I teach at called me and my husband "heteronormative" because I was the one changing my baby's diaper, I just want to say:

(1) Sometimes the "Who will change the diaper?" question has less to do with gender than with who needs to go to the bathroom before the plane boards, and

(2) "Heteronormative." I do not think it means what you think it means.

That's hysterical. What a pompous twerp. Life will certainly knock him/ her down a peg.

Although I do love my daughters response to diaper changing, she says her job is input ( breastfeeding ) so Dad's job is output :lol: .. (.of course she does change diapers too when required )

[littlemommy]

I have two sons and am having a baby girl this coming Friday. I got all her clothes secondhand from other people because I am cheap and babies grow so fast. Every item I received was pink. Literally. Every. Item. At first it was exciting to see after a sea of boy browns, blues, and reds, but then the sheer amount of pink was disturbing. :P I bought her a green and blue "coming home" outfit, knitted her a black hat, and called it good for now. Pink clothes will be as good as any other color for spit up and explosive poop diapers.

I'm sure I'll buy her Barbies (or whatever the "thing" is when she's older) because I dearly loved that stuff myself. But should she be interested in trains or construction vehicles her older brothers can hook her up. I really hope she likes Thomas the train, since we have a set valued at approximately 4 billion dollars. My 5 year old son picked out a dolly to give her when she's born and marveled at how soft and nice it felt. I told him he liked things that felt like that when he was a baby, and pointed out he slept with a stuffed bear and not a tractor currently, as well.

[lizziesmom]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/20/toyshop-sexism-children-gender-stereotyping

S' the Grauniad, no need for link-breaking.

I found the comments on this article much more depressing than the article itself. Ream after ream of them stating smugly that all girls love dollies and pink and that's just natural or they wouldn't be girls....*sigh*

I loathe pink. Does that mean I'm not a girl? littlemommy: Because of my anti-pink and purple bias I refuse to buy any baby girls clothes unless I can find something cute in another color. Good luck with that. 90 percent of the merchandise is either pink or purple.

[SpeakNow]

I think that liking "girly" things is a combination of nature and nurture. My sister and I provide the perfect example. My mother was not a fan of pink or princess items, and the room my sister and I shared had mostly gender neutral decor. Nonetheless, I LOVED princesses and mermaids and wanted to paint my room pink. My sister hated princesses and refused to let me paint our room pink. I think likes and dislikes depend as much on the kid as on what the parents push on them.

[Terrie]

For me, there are two factors that I look for in "Is it an issue?" One, is there a balance? Yes, kids go through stages where they might fixate on something, but if it's always the "girly" or the "boyish" side, that worries me. Two, are they stating that they "can't" like or do something because it's for girls/boys only. The story earlier of the girl who refused to wear teal because blue is a "boy" color is creepy to me, because it's a reminder that you can't raise kids in a bubble and parental intentions only carry you so far.

[Mama Mia]

For me, there are two factors that I look for in "Is it an issue?" One, is there a balance? Yes, kids go through stages where they might fixate on something, but if it's always the "girly" or the "boyish" side, that worries me. Two, are they stating that they "can't" like or do something because it's for girls/boys only. The story earlier of the girl who refused to wear teal because blue is a "boy" color is creepy to me, because it's a reminder that you can't raise kids in a bubble and parental intentions only carry you so far.

But isn't insisting on some sort of balance putting kids in just as much of a box? How is saying your girl HAS to like both Hot Wheels and Barbies any different than thinking she can ONLY like Barbies?

I was a super girly girl. It was before the era of super pink sparkly glittery, but I always wanted to play with stereotypically girl toys , the only exception being Legos, but that's because I could have imaginary houses and families in them. As an adult I prefer " feminine " everything. Do I need to take up some sort of typically masculine hobby just to prove I'm balanced? Should my parents have pushed me to play with typical boy toys if I didn't want to?

[Terrie]

But isn't insisting on some sort of balance putting kids in just as much of a box? How is saying your girl HAS to like both Hot Wheels and Barbies any different than thinking she can ONLY like Barbies?

I was a super girly girl. It was before the era of super pink sparkly glittery, but I always wanted to play with stereotypically girl toys , the only exception being Legos, but that's because I could have imaginary houses and families in them. As an adult I prefer " feminine " everything. Do I need to take up some sort of typically masculine hobby just to prove I'm balanced? Should my parents have pushed me to play with typical boy toys if I didn't want to?

Even as a "super girly girl" you played with Legos. So you just proved my point that a normal child will not fall 100% on one side of the spectrum. I betting if we took an objective look at anyone's life and were forced to gender everything they do (an admitted exercise in foolishness), we'd find activities both "masculine" and "feminine."

[Conuly]

But isn't insisting on some sort of balance putting kids in just as much of a box? How is saying your girl HAS to like both Hot Wheels and Barbies any different than thinking she can ONLY like Barbies?

If your kid likes to play with Barbies because she likes Barbies, fine. If she insists she CANNOT play with cars (not even, say, to oblige a younger cousin or something like that) because THOSE are BOY toys, and this continues for a long time, then you might start to be concerned about the messages she has been getting. If she used to like playing with cars, then suddenly said they were for boys only and she never wanted to play with them ever again, then you might seriously consider a short talk with her to see where she got that idea.

[2xx1xy1JD]

1. Adults notice what we want to notice.

So yes, I could look at my son, notice that he had far more energy at 2 than his sisters did, and notice that he and his friends liked wrestling each other and playing sports at 5, and say "he's all boy".

Or, I could notice that he also loved wearing my pink hat when he was 2, that he's a great dancer, that he loves cooking, that he's really nuturing with little kids......

2. Little kids go through a "rigid roles" stage - which is often a passing phase.

Somewhere around 2-5, little kids go through a phase where they can get really rigid about rules. It's all part of their development and making sense of their place in the world. So yes, you do get tots who will genuinely insist on wearing pink sparkly wings with plastic heals to go play outside. You will also get tots like my son who suddenly insisted on wearing little suits, or who insist on wearing superhero outfits, or who will wear only green, or who will refuse to do anything without blankie and bear beside them.....

3. Kids often don't follow the "script" when playing with toys, and the best toys use their imaginations anyway.

I've never seen an actual child reverently brushing a Barbie's hair, just like it the commercials. Ideally, toys are just props in an active fantasy life, and get used in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways. Plus, regardless of gender, if a sibling is playing with a toy, a tot must have it NOW.

4. Parents don't have nearly as much control over children as we think.

Between biology and peer influence, parents don't control that much. We set the stage, we try not to screw up, but unless we go the fundie homeschool/keep your kids locked in a bubble route, they will develop on their own and won't be mini-mes.

5. Gender roles/expectations vary with the culture and the times.

My kids watch Cake Boss. Cooking and baking are not inherently female activities.

My kids also asked me one day, "can boys also become lawyers?", which through me for a loop. When I was born, around 3% of lawyers were women. My kids, though, see that mommy's a lawyer and that I've got some mommy lawyer friends, so in their minds, the two go together.

Girl 1 also expressed her desire for jewellery when she was 2 by asking for pretty earrings "like Moe". Moe was her male preschool teacher.

6. Finally....there are some actual biological/hormonal differences.

One of my pet peeves is referring to women, and only women, as "hormonal". Last I checked, testosterone is a hormone too, and it has an effect on boys and men. Preschool boys get a surge of testosterone, and they don't always know how to cope with it. Obviously, there is tons of individual variation, but I have noticed that little boys of that age are often so full of energy that they are literally bouncing around. Meanwhile, girls often speak earlier than boys, and later on they will mature faster than the boys. This has an impact when it comes to school. When you start full-day kindergarten and earlier literacy expectations, and you have some teachers who don't always have high energy and patience, you can get little boys who get frustrated because they can't sit still during circle time and who fall behind in reading, and you can have teachers who seem to spend a good part of the class time yelling at the boys.

Whether by nature or culture, social behavior can also look very different for boys and girls. Many girls will not get physically aggressive, but will be downright mean. If teachers think that bullying is all about a big, physically aggressive kid, they won't notice the problems with cliques and social aggression. Meanwhile, two boys may be wrestling each other and the teachers may freak out because of policies against physical contact, but the boys may be perfectly happy (although they need to be monitored to make sure that this is the case - sometimes one kid is playing and the other is truly overwhelmed).

[roddma]

It's not that I feel girls playing with girly stuff or feminine=bad. It's when the idea is forced by society. I think parents freak out to much when their girl doesn't get into the girly stuff or boys not wanting to play football. As a girl myself, I only owned two dolls my whole childhood. I hated dressing for church because I had to wear slips and hose plus get my hair curled.

[Mama Mia]

It's not that I feel girls playing with girly stuff or feminine=bad. It's when the idea is forced by society. I think parents freak out to much when their girl doesn't get into the girly stuff or boys not wanting to play football. As a girl myself, I only owned two dolls my whole childhood. I hated dressing for church because I had to wear slips and hose plus get my hair curled.

I see that, but I also see the other extreme, where parents insist that the toys are strictly unisex, or that their daughter won't wear pink tutus.

[JesusFightClub]

But isn't insisting on some sort of balance putting kids in just as much of a box? How is saying your girl HAS to like both Hot Wheels and Barbies any different than thinking she can ONLY like Barbies?

I was a super girly girl. It was before the era of super pink sparkly glittery, but I always wanted to play with stereotypically girl toys , the only exception being Legos, but that's because I could have imaginary houses and families in them. As an adult I prefer " feminine " everything. Do I need to take up some sort of typically masculine hobby just to prove I'm balanced? Should my parents have pushed me to play with typical boy toys if I didn't want to?

There is something I'm a bit worried about, and that's the idea of "transgender kids".

When I was a kid, I was determined I'd be a boy when I grew up (until I was about eight, when unfortunately an early puberty appeared and I made my peace with being a laydee). Nowadays, I am happy with being female and have realised that all kinds of women are still women. I wouldn't swap to be a man if you paid me (I have heard such things happen :mrgreen: ) However, if you asked six-year old me, I would have told you I was DEFINITELY a boy and I was just waiting on my willy growing.

It seems a bit creepy that small children can decide that they are actually the other sex without knowing what that means, and I wonder what FJists think of this.

[Terrie]

I see that, but I also see the other extreme, where parents insist that the toys are strictly unisex, or that their daughter won't wear pink tutus.

Personally, I think toys are strictly unisex. It's only society that declares dolls are for girls and trucks are for boys. It's why I worry about societal influence when a child only likes "girl" or "boy" toys.

One of my favorite stories from childhood: My brother, who is very much a "guy's guy" wanted a My Little Pony, 'cause his older sister (me) had a bunch, so obviously he needed one. My mom let him pick on out, and he picked one of the "newer" ones with the jewel eyes. Man, was I jealous. All my ponies had regular eyes. And he wouldn't trade my pegasus pony for his. :(

[RandomTrivia]

I have two sons and am having a baby girl this coming Friday. I got all her clothes secondhand from other people because I am cheap and babies grow so fast. Every item I received was pink. Literally. Every. Item. At first it was exciting to see after a sea of boy browns, blues, and reds, but then the sheer amount of pink was disturbing. :P I bought her a green and blue "coming home" outfit, knitted her a black hat, and called it good for now. Pink clothes will be as good as any other color for spit up and explosive poop diapers.

I swear, this is why, when I was pregnant, we would not have told anyone what gender we were having (we didn't find out ahead of time, but if we had, it would have been Top Secret). Because I know my family, and we would have been absolutely drowning in an avalanche of either pink (which I hate) or blue. This way, we had lots of white, green and yellow, along with some gender-neutral blue outfits, other random colors, a fair bit of yellow duck theme clothes (Carters' theme that year) and a bit of pink. Plus, I think I was hoping it would make people think a little more, instead of just buying the first pink/blue thing they could find. Not sure if that part worked or not.

And now I've got a boy who loves things with wheels, and Lego, but his favorite colors are pink and purple - and we've had a couple of talks already about "boy colors" and "girl colors" and that kind of thing.

[Mama Mia]

There is something I'm a bit worried about, and that's the idea of "transgender kids".

When I was a kid, I was determined I'd be a boy when I grew up (until I was about eight, when unfortunately an early puberty appeared and I made my peace with being a laydee). Nowadays, I am happy with being female and have realised that all kinds of women are still women. I wouldn't swap to be a man if you paid me (I have heard such things happen :mrgreen: ) However, if you asked six-year old me, I would have told you I was DEFINITELY a boy and I was just waiting on my willy growing.

It seems a bit creepy that small children can decide that they are actually the other sex without knowing what that means, and I wonder what FJists think of this.

That is something that concerns me too. Little kids ideas and concepts change so often, that it seems, to me, to be kind of drastic to go the transgender route with a child before puberty. Particularly when you read some of their stories, and the parent will talk about how they are sure the kid is transgender due to things like toy or color preferences at a very young age.

And I really don't understand how it is often the same people who will insist on gender neutral everything for a kid, and that people's ideas of gender appropriateness are based purely on society pushing roles on kids, unless they think the kid is transgendered, and then they will fall all over themselves getting the kid toys and clothes that are completely sex stereotyped. :think:

[2xx1xy1JD]

Well, I thought it was a bit ridiculous when we were discussing Coy (transgender child who fought for permission to continue to use the girls' restroom at school) to hear the parents claim that the gender identity was coming out at 5 mos old when Coy wanted a pink blanket.

I wasn't remotely girly as a child. I never wished for or expected a penis to pop up, but I was mistaken for a boy more than once. I'm glad that I grew up in a family and a time where this wasn't a big deal (eg. they kept showing "Free To Be You and Me" at school and I had the record at home). I wasn't shoehorned into rigid girl roles, but also wasn't labelled as being transgender, and was generally free to do my own thing.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re pink and blue baby clothes:

Yes, my girls wore lots of pink and purple, and my boy got lots of blue. No, I'm not hopelessly sexist. Let me explain:

I'm somewhat cheap and lazy, but still wanted my babies to look cute.

Some skin tones have a yellow undertone, and can look good in colors like yellow and green. My kids look hideous in those colors. Pink and blue happened to look much better.

Also, when you are cheap and lazy but don't want it to show, you need baby clothes that match - even if your kid poops through outfits and requires frequent changing. If you make rules like: "clothes should be mainly pink or purple, with some white, grey and denim blue allowed", or "clothes should be dark blue, grey, white, with just the odd flash of yellow or red", then even the cheapest outfits will go together and you can change your child as much as you need to, or even allow a tot to pick out their own clothes, and it will still be okay. For the same reason, I insisted that all socks be identical and hated any frilly ankle socks designed to match a particular outfit.

[Terrie]

Transgender children is a fairly new area being studied, but so far, a few things are being consistently found to distinguish transgender kids from kids going through a phase.

1) The child articulates is from an early age. Like, as soon as they understand there are boys and girls, at age two or three, they firmly put themselves one camp over the other.

2) It's consistent. They do it all day, every day. 100 times out of 100 times, 1000 out of 1000, they will place themselves as a boy or girl.

3) It's persistent. It goes on for years, not just days, weeks or months.

The best take on it that I've seen was a piece from a mom who had a transgendered daughter. They had "socially" transitioned her at around five, after 2-3 years of the issue, which meant using she/her/hers and a feminine version of the child's name. And she laughed when people said "But what if he changes his mind and wants to be a boy again?!" She just laughed and said" First, she's a she. Second, we'll just change her name back and switch to he/him/his."

From what I've read, a lot of people do have concerns about how stereotyped transgendered kids can be in their behavior, but, personally, I suspect that it's part of their attempts to get the response they want. If you're a little girl and people keep telling you you're a boy, it's not shocking that you'd be even more girly in response.

[itsnikki05]

My little girl... Well, she likes knit dresses/leggings because they're comfy.. But if it came with a super hero on it she'd love it more! She plays with Nerf swords, action figures, barbie, and loves nothing more than to pull on her ratty cowboy boots and play in the mud.

And fwiw, last year she received a play kitchen in nice shades of brown (Step 2, had realistic stove eyes and everything!)... I don't know. I guess kids sometimes fit perfectly into that gender stereotypes, some don't. I didn't, and now my daughter doesn't. *shrug* but I wouldn't be all up in arms if she did!

Also, the kid looks GOOD in light pink. She's got that blonde hair, bright blue eyes, porcelain skin thing going on and it's just HER color. But baby blue and aqua look good as well... Her favorite color right now is (in her words) "glittery rainbow and green" so... LOL

[Savoring Samsara]

I swear, this is why, when I was pregnant, we would not have told anyone what gender we were having (we didn't find out ahead of time, but if we had, it would have been Top Secret). Because I know my family, and we would have been absolutely drowning in an avalanche of either pink (which I hate) or blue. This way, we had lots of white, green and yellow, along with some gender-neutral blue outfits, other random colors, a fair bit of yellow duck theme clothes (Carters' theme that year) and a bit of pink. Plus, I think I was hoping it would make people think a little more, instead of just buying the first pink/blue thing they could find. Not sure if that part worked or not.

And now I've got a boy who loves things with wheels, and Lego, but his favorite colors are pink and purple - and we've had a couple of talks already about "boy colors" and "girl colors" and that kind of thing.

This is exactly why my husband and I chose not to find out our child's sex before birth. His relatives still bought him a ton of blue, sporty, truck related stuff as soon as he was born anyway, but at least we delayed it for a few months!

[RachelB]

Good grief, I hate all that "my daughter won't wear anything that's not pink, therefore all girls love pink" bullshit. As a child, if I could have picked out clothes instead of wearing hand-me-downs, I would have asked for orange and green everything. My oldest nephew favors pastels, especially lavender. My niece has a strong preference for plaid.

MY STARS, IT'S AS IF PEOPLE, LEFT TO THEIR OWN DEVICES, LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS. WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN.

[Full enough quiver]

I don't remember gender being a big deal when my daughter was born almost 13 years ago. I was on welfare, so all her clothes and toys were hand me downs from a cousin who had a boy. I never cared, and neither did she. She went through a "I only want to wear dresses" phase around 3-5, no big deal, I bought some dresses for her at goodwill. Right now she is into wearing short skirts, usually plaid, with a beat up t shirt with either a superhero or anime on it, beat up converse on her feet, and her long naturally blonde hair is electric blue. Her nails are sparkly black. (her favorite color) She got a bunch of art supplies for Christmas. Her big sister is a princess. Makeup, high heels, jewelry, the whole girly bit. Her favorite color is hot pink. She straightens her hair and does her nails, and is super boy crazy. She's been like that since I've known her. She got a coach purse for christmas. My nephews, the little guy is very "manly", likes tools and football, and playing in mud. His favorite color is red. He got a tool belt and tools for christmas so he can help my husband around the house. The older one says he's going to be a makeup artist, and is always wanting to play makeover with the girls. His favorite color is "sparkly" I got him a traincase full of makeup and brushes for christmas, which he loved. They're all different, and nobody in this house gives a crap. I believe this is what it means to be truly gender nuetral, to allow kids to choose for themselves how "masculine" or "feminine" they want to be, and have their choices respected, whatever they happen to be.

[Mama Mia]

Transgender children is a fairly new area being studied, but so far, a few things are being consistently found to distinguish transgender kids from kids going through a phase.

1) The child articulates is from an early age. Like, as soon as they understand there are boys and girls, at age two or three, they firmly put themselves one camp over the other.

2) It's consistent. They do it all day, every day. 100 times out of 100 times, 1000 out of 1000, they will place themselves as a boy or girl.

3) It's persistent. It goes on for years, not just days, weeks or months.

The best take on it that I've seen was a piece from a mom who had a transgendered daughter. They had "socially" transitioned her at around five, after 2-3 years of the issue, which meant using she/her/hers and a feminine version of the child's name. And she laughed when people said "But what if he changes his mind and wants to be a boy again?!" She just laughed and said" First, she's a she. Second, we'll just change her name back and switch to he/him/his."

From what I've read, a lot of people do have concerns about how stereotyped transgendered kids can be in their behavior, but, personally, I suspect that it's part of their attempts to get the response they want. If you're a little girl and people keep telling you you're a boy, it's not shocking that you'd be even more girly in response.

What would concern me about the family you describe is how young the kid is. I don't think its that unusual for a five year old to be fixated on something for two or three years and then change their mind, and I don't think the parents laughing off how easy it would be to just change back to " he" from " she" shows a great deal of awareness of how much of an impact it might actually have for their child. It seems, to me, that first presenting a child at school as a girl named Jenny and later telling everyone he's actually a boy named Jack would cause a lot more upheaval for the kid than some other pre-school fixation.

[Terrie]

What would concern me about the family you describe is how young the kid is. I don't think its that unusual for a five year old to be fixated on something for two or three years and then change their mind, and I don't think the parents laughing off how easy it would be to just change back to " he" from " she" shows a great deal of awareness of how much of an impact it might actually have for their child. It seems, to me, that first presenting a child at school as a girl named Jenny and later telling everyone he's actually a boy named Jack would cause a lot more upheaval for the kid than some other pre-school fixation.

They actually transitioned her post-start of school so the evaluation of how hard it would be was based on, you know, actually having done it before. To be rudely blunt, do you have actual experience with the issue, or is this just your personal biases talking? Because at what point does the kid get to be herself? Delay a social transition and she's faced with the same potential issues when it's not a phase and she's socially transitioning at seven or eight. The family in question talked with a child mental health expert and transexual adults, it's not like it was a whim on their part. There are a growing number of stories of children allowed to make a social transition, some of whom had parents who think like you ("It can wait until they're older"), but changed their mind due to the extreme distress it was causing their kids. Like "Contemplated self-mutilation at seven" distress.