Children and gender

[Hane]

Re what 2xx1xy1jd said above about littles formulating "rules" that help them make sense of the world:

When my grandson was about 2.5, we drove past the state college his father and I both had attended. "That's Daddy's college," he said. I answered, "I went to that college, too." His reply: "You couldn't go to that college. It's a boys' college." I think he got this idea because his parents went to different schools, so all schools were sex-segregated. And this kid's parents are astoundingly non-sexist and egalitarian.

[Mama Mia]

They actually transitioned her post-start of school so the evaluation of how hard it would be was based on, you know, actually having done it before. To be rudely blunt, do you have actual experience with the issue, or is this just your personal biases talking? Because at what point does the kid get to be herself? Delay a social transition and she's faced with the same potential issues when it's not a phase and she's socially transitioning at seven or eight. The family in question talked with a child mental health expert and transexual adults, it's not like it was a whim on their part. There are a growing number of stories of children allowed to make a social transition, some of whom had parents who think like you ("It can wait until they're older"), but changed their mind due to the extreme distress it was causing their kids. Like "Contemplated self-mutilation at seven" distress.

These are my personal concerns on this topic based on having raised a large family and having worked in childcare and social service situations and experiencing how fixated on an idea that some little kids can be. I do not have any experience with transgender children, I am not completely opposed to children transitioning, in some cases, I am expressing concerns I have about some of the children's histories that I have read. There is a reason that, for example, small children can't generally testify in court or why child abuse of small children has to have corroborating evidence......little kids just aren't developmentally capable of understanding long term implications of actions, or distinguish between fantasy and reality, and are very easily led. That is another concern, is that many of these stories that have come up the parents seem very invested in the child transitioning, and (I'm sure unintentionally ) can be leading the child.

It is a very, very new issue ( except for a relatively small number of intersex children ) so I think there are naturally going to be questions and concerns and no uniform opinion on the best way to proceed.

I am concerned that kids who are still young enough to believe in Santa Claus and don't have a clear grasp on time, or what's real and imaginary, are making a very major decision before they have the intellectual or emotional development to really understand it.

There are a growing number of stories of kids who successfully transitioned at younger and younger ages, there are also a growing number of stories of kids who later changed their mind and wish they hadn't.

I think its kind of strange that as a culture children are staying children for longer periods of time and are delaying typical adult activities like marriage and working and children because we no longer believe most teens are mature enough to make these life altering decisions, but somehow a five year old is developmentally capable of making the huge decision of transitioning to another gender. That is what concerns me.

[Terrie]

A couple notes then. Intersex and transgender are very different issues, though those issues are certainly rooted into the same societal thinking. In this case, they are almost the opposite issue -- intersex children are often subjected (as infants!) to permanent changes to their body without any thought of the long term implications. The entire point of social transitioning is that it IS reversible. That why the mom I mentioned laughed when people are like "But it's such a huge, big deal!" People actually dealing with the issues, rather than just fretting about it in the abstract, have found that it isn't a huge, big deal, unless fretting people MAKE it a huge deal. And I'm more inclined to listen to the concerns and views of people actually dealing with the issue over someone who merely has lots of experience with kids in general.

For a good piece on "What if they change their mind?" and how to tell the difference between a gender-varient child and a transexual one, here's a woman with a transsexual boy child writing on the current research: http://tapeflags.blogspot.com/2013/08/h ... -mind.html

[JesusFightClub]

What Mrs S2004 said.

What's a phase and what's not? I was totally, tearfully, desperate to be a boy until biology intervened. Was I transgender, or was it just that I wanted to be a boy because I saw what they got that born women didn't - they were monitored for signs of being "gifted" (girls aren't gifted, they're normally of average intelligence, so a smart girl is just showing a spike that will go away shortly). Boys were allowed to play on the jungle gym and to like science and logic. Boys were tough and could fight. Boys had the whole world open to them. Girls had to behave.

Assigning me as male and giving me hormones wouldn't have helped. The problem was not that I was too clever and logical to be a girl and liked loads of boy things so I was really a boy. The problem was the expectation that girls were arty, cute and fluffy. I didn't need to be a transman so all my Real Boy needs could be fulfilled. I needed people to accept that girls could be like me and still be girls.

I can't believe some of the utter bollocks like "She chose a pink blanket, and that's when we knew she was trans". Um no, I am a woman who was born a woman and is still a woman. I never liked pink. My favourite toy growing up was a plastic Uzi. I didn't play with dolls. I did play with male kids instead of female kids. Is the trans kid who was a boy who loved pink and Barbies more female than me?

Here are some female experiences from women who were born female. My mum's up first. She had an allergic reaction to the contraceptive pill which caused some of her teeth to rot away. She couldn't stop taking it, because she was married and didn't want more than 3 kids, so she suffered through it.

I'm second. I had a maths teacher in high school who told me that women were too stupid to understand mathematics. I have a blood disorder which means my blood doesn't clot well, so sometimes, when I have my period, I faint. I passed out once when I was having a shower and woke up fifteen minutes later covered in blood. I was 16.

My sister in law is third. She was stabbed to death by a male who believed (incorrectly) that she was unfaithful to him.

The life of women born women isn't pretty. Trans women think we wallow in female privilege. Trust me, no such thing exists.

[Conuly]

Assigning me as male and giving me hormones wouldn't have helped.

The hormones given to young children are the same exact ones given, usually, to children going through early puberty. You probably could have had them anyway if you entered puberty at eight.

I can't believe some of the utter bollocks like "She chose a pink blanket, and that's when we knew she was trans". Um no, I am a woman who was born a woman and is still a woman. I never liked pink. My favourite toy growing up was a plastic Uzi. I didn't play with dolls. I did play with male kids instead of female kids. Is the trans kid who was a boy who loved pink and Barbies more female than me?

LOL, where did you see that? I've never seen this. What I see is "she kept crying and after the third time she attempted to cut off her penis, the psychologist recommended we let her wear dresses" and "we knew how serious it was when he tried to kill himself, thank god we were there" and "since we made this choice, our happy child is back."

Yeah, the Barbies and pink or whatnot are part of that, it's fairly normal for children to go through a gender policing stage (and I wouldn't be surprised to find that it passes faster if you just let it happen), but time and time again it seems like the turning point was when they realized that if they didn't stop fighting their kid, their kid was going to wind up dead or mutilated.

[Terrie]

As someone who has friends who are transsexual, I find some of the comments here disturbing, because they seem based off of transphobic boogeymen, not actual reality. Gender variant children don't get told they're transsexual; transsexual children are told they are only gender variant. The only "female privilege" I've ever heard an actual transsexual woman refer to covers things like "Not having to explain your gender identity to everyone" and "Not having to worry all the time that the guy who flirted with you at the bar will hold you down and cut off your genitils and probably get away with it, because you 'deserve it' in too many people's eyes."

[Mama Mia]

As someone who has friends who are transsexual, I find some of the comments here disturbing, because they seem based off of transphobic boogeymen, not actual reality. Gender variant children don't get told they're transsexual; transsexual children are told they are only gender variant. The only "female privilege" I've ever heard an actual transsexual woman refer to covers things like "Not having to explain your gender identity to everyone" and "Not having to worry all the time that the guy who flirted with you at the bar will hold you down and cut off your genitils and probably get away with it, because you 'deserve it' in too many people's eyes."

I am not remotely transphobic, thanks though, for assuming anyone who has a different opinion than you must somehow be backwards or not p.c. enough :roll: .

Also I understand that intersex and transsexual are not the same thing. That is why I said it was a new issue.

And I think that if people are expecting a five year old to grasp the nuances of difference between terms like transsexual and gender variant they have a serious lack of understanding of basic child development. Plus, if a child is "gender variant" than wouldn't you keep using the he/she pronoun that matches their biological sex?

The pink blanket preference reference comes from the numerous articles and interviews given by Coy's parents, a quick google will bring it up. There is also a huge thread on it on this site.

Please take the following example as just an illustration of the concerns I have about very young children having the developmental capacity to understand their world:

I have no idea how old you are, but if you were an adult in the 80's you might remember the big sex-ring / molestation/ satanic cult child abuse trials. These were all little kids who were became completely convinced that they were suffering horrific ritual sexual abuse. Trained therapists, parents, police officers and social workers were all convinced these kids were telling the truth, people went to prison, kids were removed from their parents......but none of it was true. None of it. Kids that young just don't have the developmental capacity to distinguish fantasy and reality, or the long term consequences of actions. The adults believed something had happened and the questions were worded in a way that the kids ended up parroting back what the adults believed, and came to completely believe it themselves. Because little kids understanding is different than adults, it just is.

That is why a two year old will throw themselves on the ground and cry and scream like the world has ended because you have to leave the park. Or why a five year old will insist they are going to marry their sibling or parent. From the ages of 3 to 6 I insisted I was going to have 64 children. One of my kids refused to be called by his name, he only liked a different name, for several years. One of my girls would only wear " boy clothes" like her brothers for 2 years in elementary school..she's now an adult and .recently we were looking at photos and she explained it was due to wanting to get back at a family member who wouldn't buy her a particular t-shirt!

My point is that treating small children like they have the cognitive and emotional maturity to make these kind of decisions is unrealistic. Why not just let them wear what they want, play how they want and use a nickname....but wait on changing the pronouns and identifying as the other gender until puberty? They ( hopefully ) aren't having surgery or hormone treatments as a young child in any case.

This comes up in a hundred day to day activities with small children, so why would anyone think that in this one area they have a full understanding of the issues involved?

[Terrie]

I'm not calling you transphobic. I'm calling you ignorant on this topic. I said the talking points being brought up here were based on transphobic scare stories, not that the people were transphobic. Also, you're the one who said "This is new (except for intersex children)" so you're the one who equated them first.

Did you actually bother to read the link I provided summarizing the actual work being done in this area? None of the "we could have jumped to the conclusion that I/my child was transgender and would have been tragically wrong!" stories here are consistent with what is currently known about transsexual kids. Oh, and no one said they understood this area 100%. That's why terms like "best practices" are used -- not that they're perfect, but that they're the best we have. These are based off of actual study, while I've seen nothing from you but speculation.

As for the case of Coy, the stories I've googled and read don't support your claims. Yes, they mention her stealing her sister's blanket at 5 months, but I see nothing about how the parents have said this is proof that Coy is transsexual. Rather, it seems to be a case of "cute infant story" that the reporters latched on to.

And I think that if people are expecting a five year old to grasp the nuances of difference between terms like transsexual and gender variant they have a serious lack of understanding of basic child development. Plus, if a child is "gender variant" than wouldn't you keep using the he/she pronoun that matches their biological sex?

I wanted to highlight this, because it's a great example of why I called you ignorant on this topic. Gender variant is a broad category, including tomboys and "sissy-ish" boys. It includes children who are just "different" in how they express themselves, as well as kids who may grow up to be gay, lesbian or bisexual. Transsexual kids should be viewed as a different, or (at most) specialized subset of gender variation. You would not follow the same practices for gender variant kids, because they are not the same thing. No credible person, in the history of this topic, has looked at a tomboy and said "She's really a he, a transsexual boy."

You don't seem to get that these kids are not identifying themselves as transsexual. Five year olds no more do that then they identify themselves as autistic or bipolar. Adults assess their behavior in light of what is known about issue and, based off of the work being done by professionals in the field, decide to let the child socially transition, including pronouns, because that's what has been found to be best.

You admit you know very little about this topic. You don't seem to care about what the professionals (who, you know, are familiar with child development) are finding. Yet you keep acting like your personal opinion should be given equal weight because "We don't know enough." And, yes, the experts might be wrong, but I suspect their odds of being wrong are much lower than the odds of someone who pulls their opinions out of the ether being wrong. I mean, you compare the information coming from experts doing studies to "Satanic Panic." The weight you're giving to your own ignorance scares me.

[Conuly]

Plus, if a child is "gender variant" than wouldn't you keep using the he/she pronoun that matches their biological sex?

Why would you? Is it really all that important which pronoun you use, so long as your kid is happy?

[Terrie]

Why would you? Is it really all that important which pronoun you use, so long as your kid is happy?

Because, apparently, if a child is going through a phase and you use the "wrong" pronoun, that's terrible. but if your child is transsexual and you use the "wrong" pronoun, that's okay.

[bettertomarry]

Why would you? Is it really all that important which pronoun you use, so long as your kid is happy?

It would seem to me that there is no reason to be concerned over social transition. Giving hormones, gender reassignment surgery, etc is a big deal. Calling a child who was born biologically male but who identifies as female, she isn't a big deal. I don't think anyone in this thread is suggestion hormone therapy for a six year old.

[Full enough quiver]

Don't they normally not give hormones to very young children? I admit Im not an expert, but I assume a 5 year old boy and a 5 year old girl aren't that much different hormonally. I would think they'd start hormone blockers before puberty so they don't go through the "wrong" puberty, which, if they stop taking them, should be at least somewhat reversible. I wouldn't think hormone therapy would start at least until the teen years, and surgery I assume would be over 18. By then, hopefully the kid has a better idea of their identity than they do at 5, and the parents can determine better if it's just a phase. Social transitioning would be so easy to reverse. Even if it was tough on the kid, worst case scenario, they could change schools, nobody would even need to know. I personally have never seen another persons genitalia in the course of day to day life. Every woman I know could have a penis for all i would know about it. In fact, wouldn't the best way to figure out if a kid is truly trans, vs other gender variant be to allow them to live as the other gender if they want to? So if it's a phase, so what? What we really need is a gender nuetral pronoun we can just call everyone.

[Terrie]

Hormones are not given to young kids. Current standard, from what I understand, is that kids are monitored by a doctor and then given hormone blockers when they show signs of starting puberty. It gives as much time as possible before doing anything permanent, either as a result of medical intervention or the body's own hormones. While there is some (very legit) criticism of the fact that the success of a physical transition is partially based on the ability to "pass," many transsexual kids find secondary sexual characteristics such as breasts or facial hair to be a real point of distress. From what I understand, hormones are prescribed only in kids who have socially transitioned and maintained stable gender identities for extended periods of time. Despite what some people fret about, if you look at the staff of any children's gender clinic (and with fears of malpractice, good luck going down this path without at least consulting with one), they have a varied staff, including therapists, doctors in a variety of specialties, etc, so it's not like there's any one person making the call and pushing an agenda.

I tend to use "they/them" as a gender neutral pronoun. It's gaining ground, linguistically. But I do have to be careful, because I tend to shorten "them" to "'em" at the end of the sentence, such as "I told 'em." Which ends up sounding like "I told him." A problem, because I can then run into the exact issue I'm trying to avoid.

[Mama Mia]

I'm not calling you transphobic. I'm calling you ignorant on this topic. I said the talking points being brought up here were based on transphobic scare stories, not that the people were transphobic. Also, you're the one who said "This is new (except for intersex children)" so you're the one who equated them first.

Did you actually bother to read the link I provided summarizing the actual work being done in this area? None of the "we could have jumped to the conclusion that I/my child was transgender and would have been tragically wrong!" stories here are consistent with what is currently known about transsexual kids. Oh, and no one said they understood this area 100%. That's why terms like "best practices" are used -- not that they're perfect, but that they're the best we have. These are based off of actual study, while I've seen nothing from you but speculation.

As for the case of Coy, the stories I've googled and read don't support your claims. Yes, they mention her stealing her sister's blanket at 5 months, but I see nothing about how the parents have said this is proof that Coy is transsexual. Rather, it seems to be a case of "cute infant story" that the reporters latched on to.

I wanted to highlight this, because it's a great example of why I called you ignorant on this topic. Gender variant is a broad category, including tomboys and "sissy-ish" boys. It includes children who are just "different" in how they express themselves, as well as kids who may grow up to be gay, lesbian or bisexual. Transsexual kids should be viewed as a different, or (at most) specialized subset of gender variation. You would not follow the same practices for gender variant kids, because they are not the same thing. No credible person, in the history of this topic, has looked at a tomboy and said "She's really a he, a transsexual boy."

You don't seem to get that these kids are not identifying themselves as transsexual. Five year olds no more do that then they identify themselves as autistic or bipolar. Adults assess their behavior in light of what is known about issue and, based off of the work being done by professionals in the field, decide to let the child socially transition, including pronouns, because that's what has been found to be best.

You admit you know very little about this topic. You don't seem to care about what the professionals (who, you know, are familiar with child development) are finding. Yet you keep acting like your personal opinion should be given equal weight because "We don't know enough." And, yes, the experts might be wrong, but I suspect their odds of being wrong are much lower than the odds of someone who pulls their opinions out of the ether being wrong. I mean, you compare the information coming from experts doing studies to "Satanic Panic." The weight you're giving to your own ignorance scares me.

My goodness you certainly get excited if someone dares to express concerns about this topic ! I am comparing this topic to the Satanic Panic purely to demonstrate that young children are extremely malleable and generally don't have a firm grasp on fantasy vs reality.

I did look over your links, I am having trouble finding any studies on a decent sized group of young children who have socially transitioned and what the outcomes are. This is understandable as children being allowed to socially transition is very recent. The blogs that I'm reading are actually making me more uncomfortable with the parents, because like Coy's mother, they seem to be very eager to say that their 2 or 3 year old child might be transgender based on things like toy and hairstyle and activity preferences.

I understand the puberty blocking hormones make sense, but I think that is something else people are being extremely casual about...hey, we'll load them up with hormones, no big deal! Umm...okay. Or hey, it's no big deal if the kid changes their mind later....no big deal to who? The parents who aren't actually attending school?

Since I don't have any personal or professional experience with this group of children ( although I do have a degree in child development, and it is the basic child development issues that concern me ) what do you say to JFC who is relating her childhood experiences?

I certainly don't think that there is no such thing as transgendered / transsexual / gender variant children, or that socially transitioning early is always necessarily a bad idea. I am merely expressing concern that typical childhood development isn't being taken into account to the extent it should. And that some of these parents seem to be a little too invested in the attention it brings them ( and their blogs ) . 50 years ago the experts all thought that Autism was caused by cold mothers. 30 years ago the experts all knew that children would only talk about sexual things if they had been molested. The experts, particularly when it comes to young children, change their opinions constantly.

By the way I am going to have limited Internet access for awhile, so I am not flouncing from this thread if I don't come back to it.

[JesusFightClub]

The hormones given to young children are the same exact ones given, usually, to children going through early puberty. You probably could have had them anyway if you entered puberty at eight.

LOL, where did you see that? I've never seen this. What I see is "she kept crying and after the third time she attempted to cut off her penis, the psychologist recommended we let her wear dresses" and "we knew how serious it was when he tried to kill himself, thank god we were there" and "since we made this choice, our happy child is back."

Yeah, the Barbies and pink or whatnot are part of that, it's fairly normal for children to go through a gender policing stage (and I wouldn't be surprised to find that it passes faster if you just let it happen), but time and time again it seems like the turning point was when they realized that if they didn't stop fighting their kid, their kid was going to wind up dead or mutilated.

The parent who reckoned her kid was trans from choosing a pink blanket was Coy Mathis's mum. I do not know if Coy's mum had a transgender child or a child who was just "GV", but how the heck do you pick between them?

Why couldn't the child wear dresses and keep the penis and forswear the hormones? What about dresses means you are only a Real Girl if you wear them? I wear dresses for two occasions, going to official functions and going to funerals. Am I not a woman because I wear trousers?

(I got boobs 'n' pubes when I was eight and my period at ten. This was kind of unfortunate ;) but it wasn't the worst thing ever. My mum considered getting me to take pills for it but then thought "Nah, why make a fuss about it". It turned out alright :))

What I'm not understanding is what makes a girl a girl aside from biology. I hated having to have long hair and wear skirts throughout my childhood, and when I became an adult I started shaving my head and wearing trousers. As I post this now I'm wearing male clothes - a man's hoodie, male tracksuit bottoms and even men's socks :pink-shock: I'm still a woman. I'm a woman even if I shave my head without a guard and buy a Celtic kit to wear. Basically, I don't stop ever being female. I can't. I am. I wouldn't even if I could.

So when people say "I knew my kid was transgender" and they base this off "She liked to play with toy kitchens and all of her best friends were female. She was really upset when we told her that she had to wear trousers and that she couldn't wear a pink tutu to school" I'm wondering where the hell my born femininity is in the mix. I displayed none of the qualities which seem to make a transgender child "female". Was I therefore a boy child because I wanted to wear trousers and I fought and played with toy guns? I don't think so.

It's possible to be a woman who doesn't perform femininity and still be a woman. I wish that people might let a boy who likes dresses and My Little Pony and long hair just to be a boy who likes these things and not assume he's female.

[JesusFightClub]

As for the case of Coy, the stories I've googled and read don't support your claims. Yes, they mention her stealing her sister's blanket at 5 months, but I see nothing about how the parents have said this is proof that Coy is transsexual. Rather, it seems to be a case of "cute infant story" that the reporters latched on to.

There are pictures of Coy at 3 in boy's clothes, and his mum didn't mention anything about how he was a secret girl. Also, why do you think that "wanting a pink blanket" was seen by reporters as a sign of girlyness?

[Terrie]

I certainly don't think that there is no such thing as transgendered / transsexual / gender variant children, or that socially transitioning early is always necessarily a bad idea. I am merely expressing concern that typical childhood development isn't being taken into account to the extent it should.

Given that the people studying the issue includes people whose field is child development, that seems like wasted concern to me. Also, once again conflating all gender variance with transsexuality is muddying the issue. I'm talking about actual transsexual children who meet very specific criteria that are designed to screen out children who are gender variant, but not transsexual. I have very consistently focused on that population. We have almost ten years of extensive study of this population, plus more isolated studies done in the 90s and retroactive study of older cohorts, and decades of of study of childhood development, so while amount of focused study is fairly new and the press is very new, I don't think it's as brand-spanking new as you might think.

You want to know my response to JFC's comments about her experience? I think they're very powerful. But, while I'm not a professional, I'm not sure that she meets the criteria currently used to evaluate if a child is transsexual, which would make her experiences not relevant to this exact issue. Broader issues of gender and gender variance? Sure, but not transexuality.

If you want to talk about the issue of parents using their children's experiences to court the spotlight, well, that's a different issue and one that is at best peripherally relevant to what I've been talking about. I have not been discussing it, nor am I interested in doing so, as I don't consider it on topic.

There are pictures of Coy at 3 in boy's clothes, and his mum didn't mention anything about how he was a secret girl. Also, why do you think that "wanting a pink blanket" was seen by reporters as a sign of girlyness?

I'm not quite clear on what you mean, sorry. As I noted, several people on this thread have stated that Coy's parents have stated that Coy is transsexual because of the incident with the blanket, but I haven't seen anything that shows that to be true. Rather, the news stories read more like the parents told what they thought was a funny story that the reporters latched onto. The fact that they continued to dress Coy in boy's clothing supports the fact that the parents did not, at the time, see it as proof that their child was transexual.

As for why the reporters thought it was a sign that Coy was "girly" from an early age, well, a lot of people buy into gender essentialism.

As I've noted over and over, one big area that study has been focused on it how to separate actual transsexual children with gender dysphoria from children who have variance in gender expression, and they're finding that there are some differences. To quote the blog I linked to earlier (Emphasis added),

Well, according to Dr. Jo, trans kids tend to have a constellation of characteristics that gender variant kids will not share. They will tend to have most of the following characteristics:

There is an early onset of gender variant behavior; age 2 or 3 is common (and in parent support groups, many of us had stories of kids asserting their gender preferences before age 2).

The child experiences body dysphoria, which is to say, their body seems wrong to them. The Tiny Tornado, for instance, was never willing to call his genitals anything but a penis, and he still has anxiety about the possibility of someday growing breasts.

The child has a consistent self-articulation around gender; their assertion of their chosen gender is, to quote Dr. Jo's PowerPoint slide, "tenaciously clung to, unremitting, pervasive, insistent, clear, and acute."

The child engages in cross-gender play extensively or exclusively. A child identified as male will play only with dolls and his big sister's kitchen set; a child identified as female seeks out trucks and building toys.

The child cross-dresses, either in daily life if allowed, or in pretend play.

The child chooses playmates who share their preferred gender.

The child either does or does not tend to engage in rough-and-tumble play.

I can hear you saying, "But some of those things fit me, and I'm not trans!" Me, too. I went through a stage in late elementary school when I preferred to wear my older brother's hand-me-downs over wearing my own girl clothes, and I was pleased if I was mistaken for a boy. This lasted a year or so. This list is explicitly making a distinction between a kid like me, who engages in gender variant behavior for some period of time, or in some circumstances, and a child whose gender identity is lasting and engages multiple areas of their life.

You may also be uncomfortable with the stereotypical elements of those last four items on the list. So is Dr. Jo. Nobody wants gender identity to depend on stereotypical behaviors. We all want kids to feel that they can engage in any kind of play, and with any playmates they choose, regardless of their gender. But anyone who has been a parent knows that it's not as easy as you think to create a generation of freewheelers, and, for now at least, it seems to be true that consistently crossing lines on gender stereotypical behavior is meaningful if it occurs in a context where other items on that list are also present.

It's worth noting that the mom who wrote this summary is, herself, gender variant, but very much NOT transsexual. She has a picture on her blog of her with a shaved head, and a great quote "If there is one thing I know about women, it's that they can have short hair and shop in the menswear department. In fact, I'd say that one of the things I love about women is that they can have short hair and shop in the menswear department."

[JesusFightClub]

Terrie, I might explain things a bit rubbish :embarrassed: but I am very happy you're taking the time to discuss this. What I am trying to get at is that I don't know what makes a transgender child the opposite sex when I wasn't, and I feel a bit worried that they may be too young to decide.

On the back of this thread I actually went and asked my mum about my childhood. She said "You were totally sure you were a boy. We didn't think about that [being transsexual], it wasn't an option or something we knew about ever, you were a girl but a different kind of girl, I suppose". She was very disappointed because she wanted a girly girl who would play with dolls, give her grandkids ASAP and look girly. (At various times in my life she's complained about my lack of femininity. I'm used to it now and it doesn't bother me :) ). But she's right, I am a woman and was a girl, just not a stereotypical one.

So when I look at a list like this I feel confused:

There is an early onset of gender variant behavior; age 2 or 3 is common (and in parent support groups, many of us had stories of kids asserting their gender preferences before age 2).

The child experiences body dysphoria, which is to say, their body seems wrong to them. The Tiny Tornado, for instance, was never willing to call his genitals anything but a penis, and he still has anxiety about the possibility of someday growing breasts.

The child has a consistent self-articulation around gender; their assertion of their chosen gender is, to quote Dr. Jo's PowerPoint slide, "tenaciously clung to, unremitting, pervasive, insistent, clear, and acute."

The child engages in cross-gender play extensively or exclusively. A child identified as male will play only with dolls and his big sister's kitchen set; a child identified as female seeks out trucks and building toys.

The child cross-dresses, either in daily life if allowed, or in pretend play.

The child chooses playmates who share their preferred gender.

The child either does or does not tend to engage in rough-and-tumble play.

The biggest issues I have with this are around what's socialised and what's actually real. I consistently described myself as a boy because what I believed a boy to be was different from what a girl was. Small children think in black and white and I couldn't fathom the option of "being a girl but not doing girl things". Once I was older and understood that possibility, everything fell into place.

I didn't play with trucks, but I didn't ever play with dolls and kitchens. (I usually played with toy guns and Lego). That assumption is wrong to me - what, you know you're female by playing with dolls and pretending to cook things? This is like Doug Phillips' version of gender. Refusing to engage in rough and tumble play (which I was very fond of as a small child) would have made me more female than my sex made me? Dressing as a fairy or a princess would have made me properly female? I was a small girl who cried and shouted if I wasn't dressed in a shirt and trousers. It didn't stop me from being a girl.

Most of my pals were and are male. It's easier to get on with males for me than it is for females. My female friends have normally been a bit gender variant or are lesbians. But, women. We share that common bond.

What I was trying to say about the pink blanket was two things.

1. It seemed like an important story for Coy's mum to tell the reporter. Why did she do that?

2. Pink and girly and fairies and princesses make you female. Coy liked pink blankets so she was a female before she could talk. Does that mean I have never been female? It's 2014 and I've been having periods and knowing that PIV sex could get me pregnant since I was ten. I'm not interested in fashion, but I am interested in politics and the history of revolutionary armed struggle. I usually forget to put on makeup and do my lippy before I walk out of the house. Is Coy a proper girl who will become a proper woman? If so, what am I?

[jaynie]

JFC, I think point Terrie's quoted text was making is not so much "dolls are for girls therefore if little johnny plays with dolls little johnny is transgender", but rather: "if our society strongly emphasises that dolls are for girls and trucks are for boys, and little johnny is transgender, she will strongly reject trucks and strongly prefer dolls". Its because society genders toys that it can be used as a metric. The child in question is liable to adopt the preferred gender's toys almost as a way of insisting "no really, I am a girl" I think? I agree it wouldn't be useful on its own, but its maybe a more nuanced point than it looks at first blush? (I am no expert in the subject though)

Its three in the morning so if I'm incoherent or said anything out of line I apologise in advance!

[Terrie]

JFC, based on what the studies are finding, I think there are two big aspects that really divide gender variant kids. First is the body dysphoria. Not just wanting a different body, but the knowing that the one they have is wrong and distressing, such as the mentioned distress about growing breasts, or children who actually threaten to cut off their penis. Personally, while I'll ultimately use whatever term a person prefers, it's what I think divides transexuality from the broader category of transgender. Second, they don't change when they discover that girls can do "non-girl" things. Today, I would suspect that any parent aware enough of gender issues to accept that their child might be transexual would tell their kid that they don't have to be a girl or a boy to do certain things.

Or you may have fallen into the small percentage of people who change their minds who are not screened out by the current standards. The reason for continuing study is to try and better identify who is who.

As for Coy, I see a lot of emphasis from the people writing about it, but nothing about how it came up or the original context. I'm not sure it was "important" to the parents. I mean, suppose it was "Coy has always shown a consistent preference for items marketed towards girls. Heck, at five months, she stole her sister's pink blanket." Ha, ha, isn't that funny, wow, everyone is making such a big deal out of that, and we just thought it was cute. My parents have one or two cute stories they trot out all the damned time, too. I admit, I haven't read every single story out or watched every clip, so if there is one that offers a direct quote of the parents saying "We knew this was proof that Coy was transexual" can someone please provide a link?

As for the idea that transexual kids drifting to more stereotyped elements of their identified gender makes them more "proper" men and women, I don't think anyone has stated that. But transexual kids get the same messages about how a girl or a boy is supposed to behave that the rest of do. While they are finding that transexual kids are generally more stereotyped in their behavior, my personal guess it that it's basic socialization. If you're a little boy, and people keep telling you "But, look! You're a girl. Your teddy bear is pink." Well, teddy has to go, doesn't he?

Now, the idea that having periods and the ability to get pregnant is important to being a woman, personally, I find that to be limited, depressing and more than a little disgusting. Under that standard, a person with Turner Syndrome (born without a second X) isn't a woman. A person born with birth defects that prevented the uterus from properly forming is not a woman. Suddenly, a whole lot of people who have always been considered women by themselves and everyone else aren't actually women. Most of the adult women I know who are transexual are not hyper girly-girls. They do pay very close attention to what society thinks a woman ought to be, because it is a matter of personal safety. A lot of people don't think they are woman, and some will make that point violently.

Ultimately, either you get that man, woman or other is about who you are when you strip away the meat and the bone and become a disembodied brain in a jar, or you don't. It is inevitable complicated in practice, because we dump a lot of crap on gender, including getting it very tangled up with biological sex, but all women are "proper" women. If they have long hair and wear dresses, if they have short hair (or no hair!) and wear overalls, if they were born with XX, XY or some other combination of chromosomes, they're all "proper" women, because "women" are not just their bodies, or their dress or any of that.

[JesusFightClub]

JFC, based on what the studies are finding, I think there are two big aspects that really divide gender variant kids. First is the body dysphoria. Not just wanting a different body, but the knowing that the one they have is wrong and distressing, such as the mentioned distress about growing breasts, or children who actually threaten to cut off their penis. Personally, while I'll ultimately use whatever term a person prefers, it's what I think divides transexuality from the broader category of transgender. Second, they don't change when they discover that girls can do "non-girl" things. Today, I would suspect that any parent aware enough of gender issues to accept that their child might be transexual would tell their kid that they don't have to be a girl or a boy to do certain things.

Or you may have fallen into the small percentage of people who change their minds who are not screened out by the current standards. The reason for continuing study is to try and better identify who is who.

As for Coy, I see a lot of emphasis from the people writing about it, but nothing about how it came up or the original context. I'm not sure it was "important" to the parents. I mean, suppose it was "Coy has always shown a consistent preference for items marketed towards girls. Heck, at five months, she stole her sister's pink blanket." Ha, ha, isn't that funny, wow, everyone is making such a big deal out of that, and we just thought it was cute. My parents have one or two cute stories they trot out all the damned time, too. I admit, I haven't read every single story out or watched every clip, so if there is one that offers a direct quote of the parents saying "We knew this was proof that Coy was transexual" can someone please provide a link?

As for the idea that transexual kids drifting to more stereotyped elements of their identified gender makes them more "proper" men and women, I don't think anyone has stated that. But transexual kids get the same messages about how a girl or a boy is supposed to behave that the rest of do. While they are finding that transexual kids are generally more stereotyped in their behavior, my personal guess it that it's basic socialization. If you're a little boy, and people keep telling you "But, look! You're a girl. Your teddy bear is pink." Well, teddy has to go, doesn't he?

Now, the idea that having periods and the ability to get pregnant is important to being a woman, personally, I find that to be limited, depressing and more than a little disgusting. Under that standard, a person with Turner Syndrome (born without a second X) isn't a woman. A person born with birth defects that prevented the uterus from properly forming is not a woman. Suddenly, a whole lot of people who have always been considered women by themselves and everyone else aren't actually women. Most of the adult women I know who are transexual are not hyper girly-girls. They do pay very close attention to what society thinks a woman ought to be, because it is a matter of personal safety. A lot of people don't think they are woman, and some will make that point violently.

Ultimately, either you get that man, woman or other is about who you are when you strip away the meat and the bone and become a disembodied brain in a jar, or you don't. It is inevitable complicated in practice, because we dump a lot of crap on gender, including getting it very tangled up with biological sex, but all women are "proper" women. If they have long hair and wear dresses, if they have short hair (or no hair!) and wear overalls, if they were born with XX, XY or some other combination of chromosomes, they're all "proper" women, because "women" are not just their bodies, or their dress or any of that.

My cousin has Turner Syndrome, and presents as far more feminine than I do. What is she, then?

The reason I keep asking "what am I, and what is she?" is because I'm still not getting where the dividing line is. I'm a woman who dresses like a bloke but I'm not transsexual enough to be transsexual. My cousin can't ever have babies (I can). She's never had a period (I am having one as we speak). She has long blonde hair and wears skirts and dresses. Who's the woman, her or I? Or are we both women, but just different (my belief)?

By all transsexual standards, I should be a transman. I wanted to be a boy. I shave my hair close. I wear men's clothing. By all transsexual standards, my cousin should be a woman. She's always been very girly, loved pink and wanted to be a Disney princess. Is she a transsexual?

A lot of people don't think they are woman, and some will make that point violently.

Men. Men do that. Not all people, men.

If they have long hair and wear dresses, if they have short hair (or no hair!) and wear overalls, if they were born with XX, XY or some other combination of chromosomes, they're all "proper" women, because "women" are not just their bodies, or their dress or any of that.

In this case, what is a woman? I am asking seriously.

[Terrie]

My point is that by transexual standards, you AREN'T a man, transexual or otherwise. Because it is not and has never been about how you look, or how you dress. Are you gender variant? Certainly. So am I. You are a female who presents as as masculine, but you certainly lack a lifelong self-identification as a man. You have said it yourself -- you are a woman. You do not identify as a man. I present as very androgynous, and have always done so, yet I do not think of myself as anything but a woman. Because it's purely mental identity. Your cousin presents in a feminine manner, and (I presume) considers herself a woman. A transsexual friend presents as fairly feminine and considers herself a woman. We're all woman, just different sorts.

The idea is that if you could take someone's brain, and put it in a jar, so that there were no cues of how they looked, or how they behaved, and only their persona self-image, how would they answer the question "Are you a man or a woman?" Transexual women will answer woman. Cis woman will answer woman. A woman is a person whose self-image, separate from everything else, is that of a woman.

Oh, and women commit violence against transsexual woman as well. It may not be as common, but I have heard at least one very vivid description of being kneed in the groin for being a "pervert."

ETA: One important thing to remember is that one person's gender identity has zero impact on another person's. That's the sort of thinking that leads some people to misogyny and transphobia. That "woman" has to mean something that they can point to and use as a measuring stick. While they do find that transsexual kids tend to be gender-conforming wit their identified gender, that's a "symptom," not a cause or proof. Just as people with allergies tend to sneeze, but sneezing and allergies are two different things.

ETA2: Because this is a complex topic and I keep thinking of things. Remember that when I talk about transsexuals, I'm talking about a subgroup of gender that many people would call the most "extreme." People with a stable gender identity that is the opposite of the gender they were assigned at birth. There are many other points along the spectrum. The choices aren't just "I'm a woman OR I'm a transsexual man." Some people consider themselves "agendered" -- they are neither man nor woman. Some people are "genderfluid." They don't have a stable gender identity. Some people would call themselves bi-gendered. They consider themselves partially a man and partially a woman at all times. that is just a portion of where people can fall.

[RachelB]

My eldest nibling, who is in kindergarten, was assigned male at birth. As I mentioned upthread, W prefers pastels, especially lavender. W often wears a bracelet or necklace around the house, though not to school; my brother has talked about how happy W is to put whatever jewelry W is currently most excited about on again after school. W is fond of playing video games and is excited to show off new favorite games to me when we meet; I have never, in a case where gamers can choose an avatar, seen W play as other than a female avatar.

I don't know if W is gender variant, or trans*, or neither. (My brother, W's papa, rocked a Kurt Cobain sack dress as a high school student. His taste changed over time to business casual and hiking gear. So I know that people's relationship to gender signifiers can change over time.) I just know that I want a world in which, if W decides that the doctors got that initial gender assignment wrong, W will be able to transition with minimal trouble and headache, and I equally want a world in which W can decide that being a boy is just fine, so long as it's on W's own terms.

That is, I don't see wanting less rigid gender definitions as being at odds with wanting better, less angst-provoking options for people who want to go through transition.

[Full enough quiver]

I think it's a complicated topic with no easy answer. My best answer is that sex is biological. Got a penis and an xy chromosome? You're male. Got a vagina and an xx? You're female. Some other combo? Intersex. That part is simple. Gender is different. It would be awesome if we could do away with gender entirely, and everyone could just be who they are and love who they love. But since I don't see that happening, I guess you are what you identify as, regardless of how you dress, or act, or who you love. My cousin who is in the army, shaves her head, wears men's clothes, and is a lesbian, is still a woman. Is it because she has a vagina? Nope. Most people wouldn't know that by looking at her. She's a woman because she says she is. If, 5 years from now, she tells me she's a man, then she's a man. Whatever. To me, she's just someone I love. Doesn't really matter what else she is.

[SpeakNow]

I hate to hijack this thread, but this issue just hit really close to home for me.

A little background...

A dear friend of mine has a 12 year old daughter who was severely bullied in school this year. The bullying got so bad, that my friend has pulled her daughter from school and enrolled her in a private school where she will finish out the school year. Obviously, her daughter has been depressed about this and has been seeing a therapist to help her deal with the situation.

Today the daughter (let's call her Eliza) announced that she is transgendered and wants to start at the new school identifying as male. My friend loves and supports her daughter, and has no issues with transphobia or anything. The thing is, and I agree with her, is that Eliza has never displayed much gender variant behavior. She has always been into girly things and has never expressed any desires to be male...until today. My friend is trying to figure out if she is truly transgendered, or if she has some other motivation behind claiming she is transgendered. She and I are just rather perplexed by this announcement. If any of you have any advice on how to handle this situation, I would really appreciate it. I want to support my friend and her daughter as best I can.