Say Goodbye to the Frumper & T-Shirts Under Dresses?

[Boogalou]

Why is it stupider? It doesn't conform to Christian conceptions of modesty and its purpose, that's all.

If you're trying not to "defraud" people then covering up while looking sexy is pointless, but if that's not your goal, what's the problem?

Then what is the goal? Just to have certain body parts covered up?

I did a bit of reading up on Jewish modesty standards and came across this article: simpletoremember.com/articles/a/modesty/ and to me it does not seem that different from certain Christian modesty standards. Maybe I'm missing something though or that article doesn't do a good job of explaining things.

[RosyDaisy]

Those are not modest. They are very form fitting and accentuate a woman's curve. That's a big no-no

[Katydid]

To be perfectly fair, looking good is part of the outreach effort. There's a part in Sue Fishkoff's book "The Rebbe's Army" where she mentions advice given during a convention for outreach rabbi's wives (I'm trying to translate "schlucha" into English - these women aren't just married to rabbis, they are one half of an outreach couple and actively engaged in outreach work). One speaker was heard giving advice that women in the community would be more receptive to listening to a woman who looked good and had a smile on her face, instead of looking miserable and frumpy and worn down.

BTW, if you like Persian food and want to see a more religious version of a Nigella Lawson-style cooking video, check this out:

Her food is awesome (I have the cookbook), but how on earth does she manage to look like that after 5 kids? Or to cook with full makeup and jewellery?

That channel is great! I love Persian & Afghan food.

I am a little confused why she didn't put up her sleeves at least an inch or two. I was concerned she was going to get her sleeves in the food all the time. Jewish modesty requirements are only to the elbow, right? So rolling up her sleeves or wearing a 3/4 length sleeve would have been fine? Or am I wrong?

[Mama Mia]

Then what is the goal? Just to have certain body parts covered up?

I did a bit of reading up on Jewish modesty standards and came across this article: simpletoremember.com/articles/a/modesty/ and to me it does not seem that different from certain Christian modesty standards. Maybe I'm missing something though or that article doesn't do a good job of explaining things.

Do you walk around completely nude? Or with only the absolute minimum coverage to prevent arrest or keep from freezing? No? Guess what, you also have a " modesty standard" .

[gardenvarietycitizen]

It's a Jewish site, and many Jews think of modesty in terms of parts of the body that are covered and not whether it looks hot or attracts attention. It is not the same idea of modesty that Christians have.

On the other hand plenty of Jewish boards are filled with gossip about just what makes a "Hot Chani," from the perspective that you definitely would NOT want to be one. Cover all the right parts but your wig is too long and you're wearing a certain type of pencil skirt? Those gossipers will be clucking tongues. Tight fitting shirts are right out (by those cluckers).

Other people are insistent that in addition to covering the right parts, you must never ever ever wear anything that might be considered "fashionable" in the secular world, so there's arguments over skirt length from that perspective (too LONG of skirts are fashionable so you better not wear them, stick to mid-calf), jeans are out, and there's the discussion over whether wire frame glasses or plastic ones are properly frumpy, because you don't want your sons looking fashionable (yep, that part applies to boys too).

As others said there's loads of subgroups but definitely some of them are quite concerned about if something might be legally ok but too "sexy."

One of the more interesting threads I saw a while back was about stockings - some of the more insular posters (but still on the internet, so not TOO insular) were insisting that properly thick and frumpy stockings should have a seam up the back so it's obvious it's stockings. Someone else with more secular experience was pointing out that to secular men of a certain age, a seam up the back of the stocking is practically a SYMBOL for "sexxxxay," and met with disbelief, it was an interesting clash of worlds.

I'm not a skirt person generally but I will say that if I do wear a skirt, I like calf-length or long skirts. My school uniform back in the day was calf-length and pleated, I appreciated the freedom of movement and coverage, no need to act "ladylike" in it if you know what I mean...

[gardenvarietycitizen]

3/4 length sleeves are common on Jewish clothing retailer sites, if you like that length that's a good place to look. The more common national chains don't often seem to do 3/4 sleeve.

[Boogalou]

Do you walk around completely nude? Or with only the absolute minimum coverage to prevent arrest or keep from freezing? No? Guess what, you also have a " modesty standard" .

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I was just asking if the point of Jewish modesty was simply to have certain body parts covered or if there was more to it than that. The article I linked to makes it seem like there is more to it than simply have x,y, and z covered.

[Mama Mia]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I was just asking if the point of Jewish modesty was simply to have certain body parts covered or if there was more to it than that. The article I linked to makes it seem like there is more to it than simply have x,y, and z covered.

Sorry I should have done the quote on the post that was saying how stupid it all is,

[longskirts]

Some Jews see modesty in terms of covering up parts X, Y, and Z because they believe God commanded that those parts be covered and it's showing respect for God. Others believe you shouldn't defraud (there was a hilariously bad post on the "sin" of defrauding by Pop Chassid) and they look with disdain on Hot Chanis. You won't actually find a lot of defrauding talk when you look at the basic Jewish texts like the Talmud, though, which makes me suspect some of the anti-defrauding Jews have been influenced by Christian fundies a la Anna T. Christian fundie influence on Judaism is a pet peeve of mine--another example of that is wifely submission, which used to not have traction as a concept in Judaism and is now a trend among the more right-wing Orthodox.

Simple to Remember is the product of a kiruv project. Keep in mind that it does not represent all Jewish opinions, not even all Orthodox opinions.

[mypsychoticself]

Some Jews see modesty in terms of covering up parts X, Y, and Z because they believe God commanded that those parts be covered and it's showing respect for God. Others believe you shouldn't defraud (there was a hilariously bad post on the "sin" of defrauding by Pop Chassid) and they look with disdain on Hot Chanis. You won't actually find a lot of defrauding talk when you look at the basic Jewish texts like the Talmud, though, which makes me suspect some of the anti-defrauding Jews have been influenced by Christian fundies a la Anna T. Christian fundie influence on Judaism is a pet peeve of mine--another example of that is wifely submission, which used to not have traction as a concept in Judaism and is now a trend among the more right-wing Orthodox.

Simple to Remember is the product of a kiruv project. Keep in mind that it does not represent all Jewish opinions, not even all Orthodox opinions.

What groups have started talking about wifely submission? The Orthodox Jews I meet tend to be either MO or Chabadniks, and I haven't heard that from either of those groups.

[nelliebelle1197]

Definitely, it's all about outreach and looking good is part of the package. Given the area where I work--Long Island's Gold Coast--appearance is even more important, so I wouldn't expect the wives (most of whom are responsible for running the preschools, in addition to everything else they do) to look anything but stylish, nor to I begrudge them that. When I have to dress up (which I try to make sure is as infrequent as possible--work clothes are jeans, Docs and t-shirts), I tend to wear clothes similar to "Chabad Chic," although not as form-fitting. I've found myself in J.Jill, asking myself, "Hmm, what would Sarah wear?"

LOVE persian food, so I'll have to check out your link.

I refuse to believe you do no look and dress like your profile picture.

[longskirts]

What groups have started talking about wifely submission? The Orthodox Jews I meet tend to be either MO or Chabadniks, and I haven't heard that from either of those groups.

It's mostly a right-wing yeshivish/hareidi thing. For example, Ruchi admitted at one point in the comments of her blog (Out of the Ortho Box) that she believes in a form of submission or doing her husband's will (based on a sentence from the Talmud--there's like one sentence in the entire Talmud that could be interpreted that way). The Chasidic woman Ruchi interviewed one time stated that she does not drive a car to show that her place is in the home, kind of the same idea. You can also find the idea of submission in the more insular Chabad communities, but the shluchim who run Chabad houses are sometimes more permissive. Or if they're not, they are very good at hiding their wackier beliefs. (For example Chabad holds as a tenet that the earth is at the center of the solar system, and this is taught in science class in all Chabad cheder schools, but will you ever hear about that from the hip shluchim at your local Chabad house? No way.)

[Boogalou]

Sorry I should have done the quote on the post that was saying how stupid it all is,

LOL. Thanks, I was really confused.

Also, thanks longskirts. I find it interesting how different interpretations on why people should be modest end up looking very similar in practice despite the often different ideologies behind it.

[sparkles]

I refuse to believe you do no look and dress like your profile picture.

Errr, there are actually times when I forget that it's NOT me. Kinda scary when you think about it... :shock:

Repeat after me, Sparkles. I am not Jean Engvall, I am not Jean Engvall, I am not Jean Engvall.

[Arete]

Some Jews see modesty in terms of covering up parts X, Y, and Z because they believe God commanded that those parts be covered and it's showing respect for God. Others believe you shouldn't defraud (there was a hilariously bad post on the "sin" of defrauding by Pop Chassid) and they look with disdain on Hot Chanis. You won't actually find a lot of defrauding talk when you look at the basic Jewish texts like the Talmud, though, which makes me suspect some of the anti-defrauding Jews have been influenced by Christian fundies a la Anna T. Christian fundie influence on Judaism is a pet peeve of mine--another example of that is wifely submission, which used to not have traction as a concept in Judaism and is now a trend among the more right-wing Orthodox.

Simple to Remember is the product of a kiruv project. Keep in mind that it does not represent all Jewish opinions, not even all Orthodox opinions.

The incident with the little girl in ISR last year, who I believe was MO (I think her first name was Nama, and she was 8). She was screamed at and called a whore by haredi men who felt she was not "modest" enough. Weren't these haredi men also anti-Zionist, therefore unlikely to be influenced by Christian fundies? I guess what I am trying to say is, once any of the Abrahamic faiths go too far down the modesty rabbit hole, they tend to wind up at the same destination (women need to cover up because they are defrauding), regardless of how they originally viewed the concept.

ETA: I'm defining "too far down the rabbit hole" to refer to groups like ATI/VF, certain haredi sects, the Taliban

[longskirts]

The incident with the little girl in ISR last year, who I believe was MO (I think her first name was Nama, and she was 8). She was screamed at and called a whore by haredi men who felt she was not "modest" enough. Weren't these haredi men also anti-Zionist, therefore unlikely to be influenced by Christian fundies? I guess what I am trying to say is, once any of the Abrahamic faiths go too far down the modesty rabbit hole, they tend to wind up at the same destination (women need to cover up because they are defrauding), regardless of how they originally viewed the concept.

ETA: I'm defining "too far down the rabbit hole" to refer to groups like ATI/VF, certain haredi sects, the Taliban

Yes, they are anti-Zionist and I agree that any can go too far. I don't know if I'd rule out influence from other fundies, though. Kind of like Lev Tahor has imitated some customs from other fundie groups, even though Lev Tahor would never admit they have beliefs in common with Islam or other religions.

Christian fundies are not always pro-Zionist either, although many of the most visible ones in the US are.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The incident with the little girl in ISR last year, who I believe was MO (I think her first name was Nama, and she was 8). She was screamed at and called a whore by haredi men who felt she was not "modest" enough. Weren't these haredi men also anti-Zionist, therefore unlikely to be influenced by Christian fundies? I guess what I am trying to say is, once any of the Abrahamic faiths go too far down the modesty rabbit hole, they tend to wind up at the same destination (women need to cover up because they are defrauding), regardless of how they originally viewed the concept.

ETA: I'm defining "too far down the rabbit hole" to refer to groups like ATI/VF, certain haredi sects, the Taliban

Christian fundies didn't have anything to do with what happened to Na'ama Margolese in Ramat Bet Shemesh.

There is somewhat of a common mindset among Jewish, Christian and Muslim fundies, but they usually don't directly influence each other. Haredi Jews in that town wouldn't have any contact with Christian fundies. The only place that I see direct influence is with Christian Zionists and Orthodox Jewish Zionists - the alliance is relatively recent, and it sometimes looks like a starry-eyed romance between two people who have some instant attraction but really don't know each other that well yet. So, for example, they may think that they have similar views on something like abortion, and not realize that there are some key areas where the views are totally different.

I do see a trend where Haredi Jews, esp. in Israel, will try to distance themselves from Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist Jews. If a trend becomes popular among the Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist, the Haredi Jews will decide that the style must be forbidden. Some of the crazier prohibitions include no denim skirts, no really long skirts, no sandals, no wearing skirts without thick tights, and no jeans, knitted kippas or wearing anything other than white dress shirts and black pants for men. None of this is related to modesty - all of those trends are things that are common in Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist circles.

In Ramat Bet Shemesh, where Na'ama Margolese went to school, there's a turf war going on between the two groups, and it's gotten ugly. Those men didn't see an 8-yr-old girl - they saw potential deviation from their strict rules, and a more lenient, rival community getting close to their turf.

[longskirts]

Christian fundies didn't have anything to do with what happened to Na'ama Margolese in Ramat Bet Shemesh.

There is somewhat of a common mindset among Jewish, Christian and Muslim fundies, but they usually don't directly influence each other. Haredi Jews in that town wouldn't have any contact with Christian fundies. The only place that I see direct influence is with Christian Zionists and Orthodox Jewish Zionists - the alliance is relatively recent, and it sometimes looks like a starry-eyed romance between two people who have some instant attraction but really don't know each other that well yet. So, for example, they may think that they have similar views on something like abortion, and not realize that there are some key areas where the views are totally different.

I do see a trend where Haredi Jews, esp. in Israel, will try to distance themselves from Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist Jews. If a trend becomes popular among the Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist, the Haredi Jews will decide that the style must be forbidden. Some of the crazier prohibitions include no denim skirts, no really long skirts, no sandals, no wearing skirts without thick tights, and no jeans, knitted kippas or wearing anything other than white dress shirts and black pants for men. None of this is related to modesty - all of those trends are things that are common in Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist circles.

In Ramat Bet Shemesh, where Na'ama Margolese went to school, there's a turf war going on between the two groups, and it's gotten ugly. Those men didn't see an 8-yr-old girl - they saw potential deviation from their strict rules, and a more lenient, rival community getting close to their turf.

I don't think that's accurate. Jewish fundies adopting burqas were absolutely influenced by Muslim fundies, for example. Many Jewish beliefs and customs have sources in Christianity--think gilgul, shlissel challah, etc. Wifely submission and defrauding are more recent cases.

A command for wives to submit is found in the Christian New Testament, rather than Tanach, and there's hardly a word about submission in centuries of Jewish responsa. But lately Jewish fundies have begun espousing the belief. Influence does not have to mean the groups are socially mixed or intentionally copying each other. There is imitation from afar.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The burqa group is really fringe even by Haredim standards. Which groups preach submission?

[longskirts]

Burqa is extreme. Shalim are maybe a more common example-there are some neighborhoods of JJerusalem where it is a common thing to see them.

Many Haredim (including some Chabad) believe in a form of submission, which they argue based on "Isha ksheira... osah et r'tzon baalah." One Chabad woman even explained to me that the husband has the place of a melech (king) in the home, and the wife and children are his subjects. I have seen Haredi literature that compares the husband to God and the wife to a human who needs to obey him.

You can see this attitude if you look into Haredi responses to the recent get refusal case--some people are saying that the wife rebelled against the husband so he shouldn't have to grant her a divorce, as it is her duty to obey and not rebel. Of course, you won't see this on Aish.com or Chabad.com, or hear it from a kiruv rabbi or shliach.

[Mela99]

Pretty. Pretty as uber modest stuff can be.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Burqa is extreme. Shalim are maybe a more common example-there are some neighborhoods of JJerusalem where it is a common thing to see them.

Many Haredim (including some Chabad) believe in a form of submission, which they argue based on "Isha ksheira... osah et r'tzon baalah." One Chabad woman even explained to me that the husband has the place of a melech (king) in the home, and the wife and children are his subjects. I have seen Haredi literature that compares the husband to God and the wife to a human who needs to obey him.

You can see this attitude if you look into Haredi responses to the recent get refusal case--some people are saying that the wife rebelled against the husband so he shouldn't have to grant her a divorce, as it is her duty to obey and not rebel. Of course, you won't see this on Aish.com or Chabad.com, or hear it from a kiruv rabbi or shliach.

Just disappeared down a Google rabbit hole since I hadn't heard of this before.

[As an aside, I'll note that the Haredi community has a habit of inserting transliterated Hebrew/Yiddish/Aramaic words all over the place, even when an article is written in English. I sort of understand it when dealing with very precise terms, but it gets ridiculous and turns everything into code.]

What I basically gleaned was this:

1. There's a quote from somewhere about how a wife should do the husband's will.

2. There were some folks grumbling that Orthodox women are too feminist these days and seem to have forgotten this stuff.

3. There are debates about what this quote even means, with some bringing up an ancient dispute between the sages as to whether "osah" means "to do" or "to make" in this case, or maybe even "to rectify". Longer discussion about the meaning of k'negdo in ezer k'negdo [knegdo can mean opposite or corresponding to, ezer knegdo is often translated as helpmeet but literally means "help opposite"], along the lines of "well, she helps him as goes along with him when he's right, but opposes or redirects him when he's not."

4. Various spin-off conversations about kollel wives (women who work in order to support husbands who are doing full-time religious studies, which is increasingly common in some Haredi circles) - are they actually fulfilling their husband's will be allowing him to study and getting divine brownie points for helping him with his religious obligations, or are they going against the traditional roles?

I didn't see anything to suggest modern Christian fundie influence. [There's always been some influence from surrounding cultures, from the impact of the Greeks on Talmudic argument to the influence of Islamic social norms on Maimonaides's view of women's roles.] The language used was quite different, and the sources are very different (no Ephesians or Titus 2). I did, however, see similar patterns of reacting to feminism and the modern world. Some embrace modern trends and try to incorporate them into the religious teachings, some say "like it or not, the world has changed and we need to modify how we do things to deal with current realities", and some react by seeing feminism as such a threat to their traditional ways that there's a total backlash - they will demonize feminism, reject any text used by feminists to support their position and go out of their way to embrace the most hardline arguments against any feminist position.

In a nutshell - I don't think that Jewish, Christian and Muslim fundies are directly copying each other, because except for some very recent cooperation between Christian and Jewish Zionists and some conservative "values" discussions (think Dr. Laura or Dennis Prager), they don't communicate at all with each other. I do think that they show a typical pattern of reaction/backlash, as traditional religions, to changes in the modern world including feminism.

[longskirts]

I do see Haredi Jews quoting Christian sources--without realizing the source of the sayings or quotations. My local Haredi kollel even included a quote from the New Testament in its *newsletter*--in an article written by a Haredi rabbi. Obviously that was not on purpose; the rabbi didn't know where those words came from, or he would never have used them. And he doesn't interact much or dialogue with Christians, but the influence is still there.