How to respond to anti-Semitic remarks ?

[latraviata]

I'm not in any part of Europe, so I don't know, but it seems to me that substituting fear of Muslims for fear of Jews isn't really, well, productive.

Look at the cited links. I don't know about the accuracy of the information, but at least one of those links is to a biased site, and I'm finding that the remainder are a lot less... sweeping and emphatic. Most of those articles point out that the majority of anti-Semitism in Europe is not coming from immigrants, and the first one, the educational link, only points to three confirmed instances of schools changing their curriculum for "sensitive" history topics - one of which was at the instigation of a group of Christians.

I'm not saying there isn't anti-Semitism among Muslims. Clearly, there is! But I don't know if the evidence really shows that it is outweighing anti-Semitism among non-Muslims, nor that government apathy on the subject really is about not offending a minority population that ALSO seems to be widely disliked.

You can question the blogs and websites all you want. Personaaly I have no reason whatsoever to write openly about the situation at least in my country.

What about this footage which was all over the (predominantly leftish) media:

elrhuNYzeIg

[OkToBeTakei]

I'm not in any part of Europe, so I don't know, but it seems to me that substituting fear of Muslims for fear of Jews isn't really, well, productive.

Look at the cited links. I don't know about the accuracy of the information, but at least one of those links is to a biased site, and I'm finding that the remainder are a lot less... sweeping and emphatic. Most of those articles point out that the majority of anti-Semitism in Europe is not coming from immigrants, and the first one, the educational link, only points to three confirmed instances of schools changing their curriculum for "sensitive" history topics - one of which was at the instigation of a group of Christians.

I'm not saying there isn't anti-Semitism among Muslims. Clearly, there is! But I don't know if the evidence really shows that it is outweighing anti-Semitism among non-Muslims, nor that government apathy on the subject really is about not offending a minority population that ALSO seems to be widely disliked.

To the bolded. A problem I am seeing on other parts of the board today. :think:

My child has just got home from school lamenting the fact that she has been given the 'evacuation' part of the class WW2 project when for the past two weeks she has been researching the Holocaust. She told me in detail how horrific she and her classmates felt on being taught about it and also in detail the old black and white photos displayed of the mass graves. They are 11.

As far as I am aware no part of history is glossed over in our curriculum.

There seems to be a very anti-muslim feel in the air today.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm not in any part of Europe, so I don't know, but it seems to me that substituting fear of Muslims for fear of Jews isn't really, well, productive.

Look at the cited links. I don't know about the accuracy of the information, but at least one of those links is to a biased site, and I'm finding that the remainder are a lot less... sweeping and emphatic. Most of those articles point out that the majority of anti-Semitism in Europe is not coming from immigrants, and the first one, the educational link, only points to three confirmed instances of schools changing their curriculum for "sensitive" history topics - one of which was at the instigation of a group of Christians.

I'm not saying there isn't anti-Semitism among Muslims. Clearly, there is! But I don't know if the evidence really shows that it is outweighing anti-Semitism among non-Muslims, nor that government apathy on the subject really is about not offending a minority population that ALSO seems to be widely disliked.

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with the way that many of those links mixed some genuine issues of intolerance and then turned it into "OMG they want halal or pork-free lunches!" Not eating pork does not pose a threat to society. Intolerance to the point that you object to basic history does. [Also, you don't help your argument by claiming that halal and kosher foods are subject to a "special tax" and therefore can't be served in public schools. That's complete racist bullshit. Supervising agencies charge for their services, but it's to cover their expenses and it doesn't go into the general revenues to support "evangelizing". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_tax ... _canard%29 In Canada and the US, many vegetarian canned goods are kosher-certified, even the cheapest brands. The only items that are more expensive are those that need to be produced in a different way, such as meat. Meat will be more expensive because the method of slaughtering is different, and the market served is much smaller. In the case of kosher meat, only part of the cow can be used, and both meat and poultry must be inspected to make sure that the animal had healthy lungs. Whatever can't be used for the kosher market but which still meets government standards gets sold to the regular non-kosher market.] You don't combat anti-semitism by promoting racist and anti-semitic views.

[Conuly]

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with the way that many of those links mixed some genuine issues of intolerance and then turned it into "OMG they want halal or pork-free lunches!" Not eating pork does not pose a threat to society. Intolerance to the point that you object to basic history does. [Also, you don't help your argument by claiming that halal and kosher foods are subject to a "special tax" and therefore can't be served in public schools. That's complete racist bullshit. Supervising agencies charge for their services, but it's to cover their expenses and it doesn't go into the general revenues to support "evangelizing". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_tax ... _canard%29 In Canada and the US, many vegetarian canned goods are kosher-certified, even the cheapest brands. The only items that are more expensive are those that need to be produced in a different way, such as meat. Meat will be more expensive because the method of slaughtering is different, and the market served is much smaller. In the case of kosher meat, only part of the cow can be used, and both meat and poultry must be inspected to make sure that the animal had healthy lungs. Whatever can't be used for the kosher market but which still meets government standards gets sold to the regular non-kosher market.] You don't combat anti-semitism by promoting racist and anti-semitic views.

Absolutely agreed on the kosher and halal issue - and yes, the complaint about Muslims wanting halal food in school lunches (not, I think, a *terribly* unreasonable request, especially in areas where school lunch is heavily subsidized and you have many Muslim students) was automatically paired with the fact that Jews want kosher food. I don't see how hard it is to provide, if nothing else, a vegetarian alternative every day, which would neatly cover both of those AND children who don't eat meat. It's a mountain out of a very small molehill, especially as vegetarian food tends to be inexpensive.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with the way that many of those links mixed some genuine issues of intolerance and then turned it into "OMG they want halal or pork-free lunches!" Not eating pork does not pose a threat to society. Intolerance to the point that you object to basic history does. [Also, you don't help your argument by claiming that halal and kosher foods are subject to a "special tax" and therefore can't be served in public schools. That's complete racist bullshit. Supervising agencies charge for their services, but it's to cover their expenses and it doesn't go into the general revenues to support "evangelizing". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_tax ... _canard%29 In Canada and the US, many vegetarian canned goods are kosher-certified, even the cheapest brands. The only items that are more expensive are those that need to be produced in a different way, such as meat. Meat will be more expensive because the method of slaughtering is different, and the market served is much smaller. In the case of kosher meat, only part of the cow can be used, and both meat and poultry must be inspected to make sure that the animal had healthy lungs. Whatever can't be used for the kosher market but which still meets government standards gets sold to the regular non-kosher market.] You don't combat anti-semitism by promoting racist and anti-semitic views.

In particular the first link is a study and not some Government mandate on what should and should not be taught.

Which actually states

There are particular options in many of the current specifications that allow students to engage with the more obviously contentious issues. For example, AQA offers options of The Crusading Movement and the Latin East 1095–1192, Britain and Ireland 1969–1998, Decolonisation of Africa (Britain and Kenya and/or France and Algeria) and The Holocaust 1938–1945. Students also have the chance to study South Africa from Apartheid to Democracy, China from 1949 to the Tiananmen Square Massacre, The Middle East from 1945–1991, and Britain 1951–1997 (which includes the issue of immigration).

The rest is how in a classroom situation these subjects should be taught in an age appropriate and STUDENT sensitive manner. For example. If Jack's Uncle happened to be blown up by a bomb in Belfast, would it really be appropriate to jump right in to Britain and Ireland 1969-1998 without some thought and preparation.

It also talks about individual teacher knowledge and how this translates to teaching. It recommends ways in which the contentious subjects which may cause distress can be introduced at different key stages and sensitively.

How the OP has translated this study to prove evidentially that

Teachers leave the Holocaust out of their history lessons because the muslim students feel offended and get violent.

Is blatantly untrue.

[latraviata]

In particular the first link is a study and not some Government mandate on what should and should not be taught.

Which actually states

The rest is how in a classroom situation these subjects should be taught in an age appropriate and STUDENT sensitive manner. For example. If Jack's Uncle happened to be blown up by a bomb in Belfast, would it really be appropriate to jump right in to Britain and Ireland 1969-1998 without some thought and preparation.

It also talks about individual teacher knowledge and how this translates to teaching. It recommends ways in which the contentious subjects which may cause distress can be introduced at different key stages and sensitively.

How the OP has translated this study to prove evidentially that

Is blatantly untrue.

Oh well, that's settled then. We are liers. :hand: :hand:

http://egregores.blogspot.nl/2010/06/on ... avoid.html

It is a translation from an official website. There is plenty to find on Google but all in Dutch.

[OkToBeTakei]

That is hardly a helpful statement to intelligent debate. Although posting inflammatory you-tube videos of which really you can pick any flavour of extremism to make your point is not either.

In this case though as I believe your children are not currently in the British education system? I do feel it would be fair to say that the example you used is not true. You used this example to prove your point which was that the holocaust is not taught as it provokes violence in Muslim students and that is not accurate. How you translate this into YOU being a liar is not my concern. I just read the article out of interest.

ETA I am commenting on the link regarding British education. Not random blog opinion.

[Marianne]

They don't say that because they are Muslims. They say that because they live in very poor district, with parents who works a lot and don't supervise them, so, they are under the influence of the first idiot here. God, everyone hates Muslims in France with Marine Le Pen, I'm not like that. NEVER Holocaust was banned from teaching in France ! We study this in 3°, 2nd, 1st and Term. This is a secular country (too secular ?) Religion has nothing to do with school. It's all. There's a lot of hate against muslims, here, we call it "islamophobia".

Chisprincess : What have I done? Something very wrong because a teacher sould not talk about himself but... I was tired hearing this. Discussion a little like this: "but homosexuals are not normal." "I am." "... It is not possible because my father told me (here the worst prejudices of the world)" "You know that is not true." "but a child would rather have a father and a mother ..." "I'll tell you a little bit of my childhood in the foster care ..." And after we have studied several musical and poetic works written by homosexuals compared with heterosexuals written by works, and, oh, magic, no differences. and after several songs about impossible love but it was another things. But I think what worked was to tell them "you see, I am bisexual, but I'm not like your father said." because we have a strong bond, me and the others teachers, with some of my students.

[Conuly]

Yeah, I admit it, after the first page or two of the government survey I just did a search for "holocaust" and read the excerpts that popped up! I read the rest of the articles in full.

I've just now watched the posted video, and I have a few questions about the context that maybe latraviata could clear up. Who were those boys, and how did the interviewer choose them to question? The text said at the beginning that it was "met with silence", met with silence from whom? From the interviewer? If he intends to keep talking to these boys, responding to them with "you stupid idiots!" isn't going to be very useful, is it?

I notice that the interviewer didn't really respond to their one non-vague assertion of why they hate Jews, which is the situation with the Palestinians. I was actually waiting for one of them to rejoind to "oh, that's not Jews, that's geopolitics!" with "well, the Holocaust wasn't about Jews either, just geopolitics!" Which is not to say that I think "well, Palestinians are dying in the millions", even if that assertion were true (google tells me under 7,000 in the past 13 years, and that's from an anti-Zionist site, so any bias has got to be the other way), justifies "so lets kill all the Jews, even the kiddies!", but there are other, more substantial responses that could have been made instead. And honestly, coming into the interview he had to have known somebody would bring up Israel and Palestine! It's not like he was blindsided and couldn't come up with a coherent reply on the spot.

The boys say "everybody" in their school hates Jews, even the Dutch students. If they are correct, and their school has a reasonable Dutch population, can we really say all the hatred is coming from the immigrants? And if they are mistaken, misleading, or lying, then maybe they are mistaken, misleading, or lying about the amount of anti-Semitism among other Muslim students at their school as well.

[Conuly]

They don't say that because they are Muslims. They say that because they live in very poor district, with parents who works a lot and don't supervise them, so, they are under the influence of the first idiot here. God, everyone hates Muslims in France with Marine Le Pen, I'm not like that. NEVER Holocaust was banned from teaching in France ! We study this in 3°, 2nd, 1st and Term. This is a secular country (too secular ?) Religion has nothing to do with school. It's all. There's a lot of hate against muslims, here, we call it "islamophobia".

Chisprincess : What have I done? Something very wrong because a teacher sould not talk about himself but... I was tired hearing this. Discussion a little like this: "but homosexuals are not normal." "I am." "... It is not possible because my father told me (here the worst prejudices of the world)" "You know that is not true." "but a child would rather have a father and a mother ..." "I'll tell you a little bit of my childhood in the foster care ..." And after we have studied several musical and poetic works written by homosexuals compared with heterosexuals written by works, and, oh, magic, no differences. and after several songs about impossible love but it was another things. But I think what worked was to tell them "you see, I am bisexual, but I'm not like your father said." because we have a strong bond, me and the others teachers, with some of my students.

Oooh, there's the difference, they were able to meet YOU. Hm. I wonder if you could just tell them you're a Jew! :lol:

More reasonably, can you invite guests in to the classroom? With maybe some legitimate purpose, such as a series of visits from local musicians or similar, some of whom happen to be Jewish?

[JesusFightClub]

To the bolded. A problem I am seeing on other parts of the board today. :think:

My child has just got home from school lamenting the fact that she has been given the 'evacuation' part of the class WW2 project when for the past two weeks she has been researching the Holocaust. She told me in detail how horrific she and her classmates felt on being taught about it and also in detail the old black and white photos displayed of the mass graves. They are 11.

As far as I am aware no part of history is glossed over in our curriculum.

There seems to be a very anti-muslim feel in the air today.

Yes. I'm starting to find it pretty disturbing - anti-fascists are the bad ones for demonstrating against nice boys who just want to carry the Swedish flag, in the 1960s people who weren't white started disrupting "Swedish unity" - and websites which even the Daily Mail would be ashamed to quote publicly being treated as though they were the fountain of truth about every single Muslim ever. It is actually no different from what the SDL talk about on their Facebook and web pages - the brown menace taking over society and normal people who are just proud of their indigenous Scottish roots being upset, and what's so wrong with white Christian pride anyway?

Marianne, what about showing them Maus - could you do that? We read it as part of our education about the Holocaust in school (EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE MUSLIMS IN MY CLASS CAN YOU BELIEVE IT), and it is pretty shocking and might make them think again about anti-semitism. Aside from that, if someone Jewish could speak to them, that would be a good thing. If you were in Scotland there are people I know who would speak to your students, and some of them are even gay too.

[latraviata]

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3556/ ... ism-europe

7th alinea

[Clementine]

Yes. I'm starting to find it pretty disturbing - anti-fascists are the bad ones for demonstrating against nice boys who just want to carry the Swedish flag, in the 1960s people who weren't white started disrupting "Swedish unity" - and websites which even the Daily Mail would be ashamed to quote publicly being treated as though they were the fountain of truth about every single Muslim ever. It is actually no different from what the SDL talk about on their Facebook and web pages - the brown menace taking over society and normal people who are just proud of their indigenous Scottish roots being upset, and what's so wrong with white Christian pride anyway?

Marianne, what about showing them Maus - could you do that? We read it as part of our education about the Holocaust in school (EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE MUSLIMS IN MY CLASS CAN YOU BELIEVE IT), and it is pretty shocking and might make them think again about anti-semitism. Aside from that, if someone Jewish could speak to them, that would be a good thing. If you were in Scotland there are people I know who would speak to your students, and some of them are even gay too.

Ah, the straw man argument, how charming of you JFC. Well, since you are referring to what I wrote about neo-nazis and their activities and influence today I just want to clarify that yes, there are neo-nazi groups but none of them had been prosecuted for crimes the last ten years and they make very little noise other than to celebrate the deaths of some of our kings.

There are a bunch of left-wing extremists (or "activists" as our media calls them) that have (vandalism, abuse, arson, threats), plus a handful of muslim terrorists. Right now, they left-wing extremists and islamists cause a much greater threat to our democracy than the neo-nazis. I hate them all, just to make myself very clear. Hate is bad regardless of where it comes from and I have a hard time seeing left wing thugs as more noble criminals than neo-nazis.

[JesusFightClub]

Clementine, I am antifa.

It's a little bit different from just opposing fascism, which I would hope most people do. We're a little bit more boots on the ground, and I will explain why.

You see nice boys, well-dressed, carrying a Swedish flag and saying how much they love their country. In private, they run websites "outing Reds" who can be anyone who's said something like "I don't approve of [the fascists] marching". They will dox them and encourage people to go to their homes and harass them. I have comrades who have testified against fascists and you wouldn't even want to hear the threats they put up with.

When you counter-demonstrate against them they don't just say "Oh gosh, we respect your point of view but here's why we disagree". They chuck smoke bombs at you, pretend they're pointing guns, physically try to attack you, and generally behave like absolute arseholes.

That's before you get to the fact that police tell people who look visibly Muslim to stay indoors when the fascists march. That's citizens of my country being told to stay at home because someone might see the marks of their religious belief and their brown skin and beat them up. That's what fascists are like, and that is what they do.

This is why I have very little patience for people who say they're lovely lads who just have pride in their country. It's not what they are. They are violent drunken casuals looking for a fight, and I strongly doubt Swedish fascists are polite locals who say things like "I love immigrants, but I am a bit concerned about some cultural aspects which we may need to have dialogue about." Look into who you're defending and see if you want to continue.

[Clementine]

Clementine, I am antifa.

It's a little bit different from just opposing fascism, which I would hope most people do. We're a little bit more boots on the ground, and I will explain why.

You see nice boys, well-dressed, carrying a Swedish flag and saying how much they love their country. In private, they run websites "outing Reds" who can be anyone who's said something like "I don't approve of [the fascists] marching". They will dox them and encourage people to go to their homes and harass them. I have comrades who have testified against fascists and you wouldn't even want to hear the threats they put up with.

When you counter-demonstrate against them they don't just say "Oh gosh, we respect your point of view but here's why we disagree". They chuck smoke bombs at you, pretend they're pointing guns, physically try to attack you, and generally behave like absolute arseholes.

That's before you get to the fact that police tell people who look visibly Muslim to stay indoors when the fascists march. That's citizens of my country being told to stay at home because someone might see the marks of their religious belief and their brown skin and beat them up. That's what fascists are like, and that is what they do.

This is why I have very little patience for people who say they're lovely lads who just have pride in their country. It's not what they are. They are violent drunken casuals looking for a fight, and I strongly doubt Swedish fascists are polite locals who say things like "I love immigrants, but I am a bit concerned about some cultural aspects which we may need to have dialogue about." Look into who you're defending and see if you want to continue.

Oh I don't disagree with you there. The left also have their own intelligence service that monitors and "outs" people who they think have different views from them. They hack computors and leak classified intelligence to the media. One of their leading names is the left-wing arsonists I wrote about earlier.

I have never said that neo-nazists are lovely lads who just have pride in our country. Where did I write that?

I think they are thugs and scums and above all are people who don't know a shit about history. Which once again proves what I have written about knowing history and traditions and where it comes from.

Their big hero is our "warrior king" Charles XII who they celebrate every year. I really have no idea why because he was the king who lost half of our (then) country and had to flee to the Turkish emir (oh the irony!) to get protection while his troops all died or became prisoners of wars in Russia and ended up being shot in the head when he tried to enter Norway. Some national hero.

I think they should be fought, but with legal methods, not more violence and thuggery. Above all, they should be fought with debate and historical arguments and they will be lost.

Still - the most violence and threats today come from leftists and they should be stopped too. Again, I am writing about the situation in Sweden and I understand that it is different in the UK - I haven't really followed what is happening there.

[Conuly]

This is not the first time somebody has linked to the gatestone institute. They are NOT an unbiased source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute

And for the record, I am deeply suspicious whenever I hear the claim that "everybody knows this is true, but nobody says it because then the meanies might call them bigots". I have never once in my life found that statement to have any validity. It's not true when a "disability awareness" group claims that all parents really want to kill their disabled children. It's not true when somebody claims that everybody really feels disgusted at the thought of an interracial or gay couple. It's not true when somebody says that a certain ethnic group really is just stupider than the majority and that's why they don't do so well, and quite honestly I would be shocked if it were true now.

[Marianne]

Oooh, there's the difference, they were able to meet YOU. Hm. I wonder if you could just tell them you're a Jew! :lol:

More reasonably, can you invite guests in to the classroom? With maybe some legitimate purpose, such as a series of visits from local musicians or similar, some of whom happen to be Jewish?

Me and my girlfriend yesterday : "You don't want to talk to my students ? Your father is Muslim, your mother is jewish, you're a musician, you study the traditional music ..." "Supernatural taught me that children are monsters who want to eat my soul. No way." :lol:

"everybody knows this is true, but nobody says it because then the meanies might call them bigots" I just want to say : in France, everybody (journalists, politicians) say this kind of things...

[Conuly]

Me and my girlfriend yesterday : "You don't want to talk to my students ? Your father is Muslim, your mother is jewish, you're a musician, you study the traditional music ..." "Supernatural taught me that children are monsters who want to eat my soul. No way." :lol:

"everybody knows this is true, but nobody says it because then the meanies might call them bigots" I just want to say : in France, everybody (journalists, politicians) say this kind of things...

I'm not clear. Do you mean "everybody says Muslims are awful" or do you mean "everybody says the only thing keeping us from saying Muslims are awful is fear of being called a bigot"?

[Marianne]

The second. Everyone (especially politicians and journalists) said "ooooh, Muslims are horrible and a danger to our country but we are not allowed to say because of political correctness."(but they say it anyway).

But the politically correct, now in France, is to say how Muslims and Gypsies are dangerous. (and if this is not clear, I do not support this kind of talk - I find it despicable, racist and Nazis when they speak about gypsy (sorry for the Godwin point)).

[MysteryHaggis]

How about some bande dessinée? The 'obvious' choice is Maus by Art Speigelman,though that's a very personal perspective, might not be 'universal' enough. There's also Auschwitz by Pascal Croci (warning: hard going but worth it) I like Operation Vent Printainier a lot myself (about the 1942 Paris roundups).

Tbh there are LOOOOOOADS of BD/French comics on WW2 and treatment of Jews therein. Could be a way?

BTW,someone mentioned the Armenian Genocide? There's a great French graphic novel about it, called Medz Yeghern. I *think* you can get it in English.

[Conuly]

I think Maus might be a little heavy for kids in that age group.

I find it despicable, racist and Nazis when they speak about gypsy (sorry for the Godwin point).

I don't think it counts as Godwin when the Nazis actually said it.

Everyone (especially politicians and journalists) said "ooooh, Muslims are horrible and a danger to our country but we are not allowed to say because of political correctness."(but they say it anyway).

If course they say it, and I bet they pat themselves on the back about how "brave" and "honest" they are when they do, right? Damn hypocrites.

[MysteryHaggis]

I think Maus might be a little heavy for kids in that age group.

Oops, i thought it was teenagers. Apologies.