Dead children of faith healers in Idaho

[Cheetah]

News investigation finds 10 kids who died in the last 2 years in one small faith-healing community in Idaho:

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Fallen-f ... =video&c=y

[doggie]

News investigation finds 10 kids who died in the last 2 years in one small faith-healing community in Idaho:

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Fallen-f ... =video&c=y

Nothing worse then forcing god to heal you and if he does not blaming him in a passive/aggressive way.

[artdecades]

Maybe this is just my ignorance from living in a warm state, but the amount of children who died from pneumonia seems disproportionate. I guess their immune systems were already weakened by lack of regular healthcare, but still.

[TheLurkingFrumper]

News investigation finds 10 kids who died in the last 2 years in one small faith-healing community in Idaho:

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Fallen-f ... =video&c=y

Yeah, I live not far from the Followers of Christ in Oregon City. I am glad Oregon changed the laws to protect the children, but they still die. Though the most recent ones were from a different faith healing group, Church of the First Born.

I hope Idaho changes their law, but I am not sure they will because of "freedom."

[Cheetah]

Maybe this is just my ignorance from living in a warm state, but the amount of children who died from pneumonia seems disproportionate. I guess their immune systems were already weakened by lack of regular healthcare, but still.

It does seem like a lot. Although don't forget that one of the infant vaccines most children get is against pneumonia. But still, yeah, this seems like a lot of dead kids even when you factor in not taking them to the doctor when they are sick. I guess we forget how much good those annual well-check visits do.

[TheLurkingFrumper]

Maybe this is just my ignorance from living in a warm state, but the amount of children who died from pneumonia seems disproportionate. I guess their immune systems were already weakened by lack of regular healthcare, but still.

The pneumonia is likely a secondary infection that has developed from something else that went untreated.

[doggie]

So god lets his true followers children die and normal Christians get their children saved by doctors. Humm tough choice what faith to follow.

[MissA]

There's a scene in Huck Finn where Huck, who is convinced that aiding runaway slaves is a mortal sin, thinks about his friendship for Jim, and decides to aid his escape with the phrase "All right, then, I'll go to Hell."

I get that these people genuinely believe this shit. But how can you look at your own child dying of a totally treatable but inevitably deadly disease like diabetes and not say, "Okay, God, you do what you gotta do and I'll do what I gotta do" and get him some insulin? They must have to violate every natural instinct they've got.

I'm not normally one of the "angry" atheists but honestly when those guys say "religion poisons everything" this is exactly what they mean.

[doggie]

There's a scene in Huck Finn where Huck, who is convinced that aiding runaway slaves is a mortal sin, thinks about his friendship for Jim, and decides to aid his escape with the phrase "All right, then, I'll go to Hell."

I get that these people genuinely believe this shit. But how can you look at your own child dying of a totally treatable but inevitably deadly disease like diabetes and not say, "Okay, God, you do what you gotta do and I'll do what I gotta do" and get him some insulin? They must have to violate every natural instinct they've got.

I'm not normally one of the "angry" atheists but honestly when those guys say "religion poisons everything" this is exactly what they mean.

They don't really know what is wrong and they deny anything is truly wrong. when the child dies they say that was gods choice. So god is blamed when he fails and praised when the child gets well. They treat god like he is just a stupid god.

[Stephanie66]

My kids' dad is a Jehovah's Witness. I truly believe the *only* reason he went through with it was because he KNEW I would never, ever, allow the kids to not get a blood transfusion, organ donation, blood product, etc. He knew that he could say no and it would mean absolutely nothing. I think if I *had* gone along with the crazy? He would have not done it, because as crazy as the man is, he would never have allowed his children to die if he could stop it.

[Arete]

Faith healing has only really taken off in the last 100 years or so in some splinters of fundamentalism. Even the early Christians used both physicians AND prayer, it was never physicians OR prayer. We don't pray for "the fruits of the Earth" and not go out and plant and tend the field. It is pretty much the same scenario if you are praying for healing and not using medical science.

[nelliebelle1197]

These people really misunderstand freedom and rights. Doesn't the child caught in the middle have the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. A right to LIFE? Denying these children care is nothing more than a post birth abortion. I am so angry.

[doggie]

nope they only have to be the spawn and solders of Christ.

[maybeizfundie]

I get that these people genuinely believe this shit. But how can you look at your own child dying of a totally treatable but inevitably deadly disease like diabetes and not say, "Okay, God, you do what you gotta do and I'll do what I gotta do" and get him some insulin?

The problem for them is, according to their belief, acknowledging illness in anyway is the same as "speaking it into reality" or letting it "get a hold" on the person who they're praying for. They do a lot of "speaking against" illnesses. But to admit that someone has an illness can be construed as "allowing the illness legal right to operate".

Yes, it's crazy. But that is why these parents, who may love their children very much, don't take action. They are *terrified* of doing or saying anything to acknowledge the illness and let it get its grip on their child. They are encouraged by "testimonies" of people healed on their deathbeds, or even raised from the dead, though the stories are rather vague and hard to pin down, so they led to believe that even if the child dies, if they have true faith they can raise him from the dead. It's utterly crazy, but brainwashing will do that to you. :/

[gardenvarietycitizen]

These people really misunderstand freedom and rights. Doesn't the child caught in the middle have the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. A right to LIFE? Denying these children care is nothing more than a post birth abortion. I am so angry.

It's the fundamental question, are children full citizens with all the rights that entails, or not?

If kids are full citizens with all rights, then the state should provide basic services for them, even when that means going against their parents' will.

But often people think that children are extensions of (or worse yet property of) their parents, so the parents should have full say about any contact with the children including education/health care etc. So they will say, horrors, the state is stealing the children.

It seems to me that passing some laws requiring medical care for children up to and including taking them away from their parents for the duration of the care might be a good answer. The kids get the care, and the parents have an "out" of sorts, that they didn't mistrust God and take the kid to medical care, no, their hands were forced. When the kid is healthy, she returns.

Seems a fig leaf might work for all sides. But, I'm just reading about this now, no deep thinking on the matter.

[DarkAnts]

Polio outbreak is Syria has brought out fears that it might spread to other countries where there are pockets of nonimmunized people. I wonder if it could spread to the US and make the same comeback that measles is making.

[TheLurkingFrumper]

It's the fundamental question, are children full citizens with all the rights that entails, or not?

If kids are full citizens with all rights, then the state should provide basic services for them, even when that means going against their parents' will.

But often people think that children are extensions of (or worse yet property of) their parents, so the parents should have full say about any contact with the children including education/health care etc. So they will say, horrors, the state is stealing the children.

It seems to me that passing some laws requiring medical care for children up to and including taking them away from their parents for the duration of the care might be a good answer. The kids get the care, and the parents have an "out" of sorts, that they didn't mistrust God and take the kid to medical care, no, their hands were forced. When the kid is healthy, she returns.

Seems a fig leaf might work for all sides. But, I'm just reading about this now, no deep thinking on the matter.

It is somewhat surprising to me that the idea of children's right is as controversial as it is. I got into a very similar argument with someone on The Healthy Home Economist blog. The owner of this blog really champions "parents rights" to make any medical choice they want for their child, even it ends in the child's death. Some of the people on "real food" blogs are just as fundamental as, well, fundamentalists.

Yes, parents should be the main people in charge of choosing medical treatment for their child, but when they decide to treat cancer with prayer or oil of oregano, the child's right to life really trumps a parents' right to make medical decisions.

[constantgardener]

The pneumonia is likely a secondary infection that has developed from something else that went untreated.

I had pneumonia a couple of years ago. It took me three rounds of antibiotics and several weeks off work to get over it. I was otherwise reasonably fit and healthy so I could see how it could be much more serious in a child or someone with a weaker immune system. A colleague of mine ended up in hospital with pneumonia and it took him a long time to recover.

It is only recently that babies in the UK have been offered the pneumonia vaccine. It came in when my younger son was born (he is 7), so one of my children is vaccinated and one is not. Not that this would make any difference to those relying on the Lord for protection, of course.

[fullmetalheart]

I had pneumonia in the hospital as a surgery complication over the summer (104 degree fever, it sucked hardcore). I had to take strong antibiotics and even a few months later, I'm not completely over it and parts of it still lingers.

This makes me sad. Those poor children. :(

[alaeangelorum]

Maybe this is just my ignorance from living in a warm state, but the amount of children who died from pneumonia seems disproportionate. I guess their immune systems were already weakened by lack of regular healthcare, but still.

Well there was a tiny baby (and they can get sick quickly), a 2-year-old, and a 16-year-old who sounds like she had some other chronic condition that should have been treated months ago, which would make you more susceptible. So I don't think it's too unreasonable.

The rest - diabetes, prematurity, very small baby with 'intestinal blockage' - all things that would have prompted them to be sent to hospital if they'd seen any medical teams. The 15-year-old with the ruptured oesophagus is a bit weird, but again that would be very serious. So they all had properly serious things wrong with them, and all of them could potentially have been saved.

Your immune system doesn't need medical care to sustain it, but if you have other chronic conditions that are not treated properly it will leave you more susceptible. Poor nutrition might be a factor... and also the fact that these children will not have got the 'help' from early antibiotics that immune systems sometimes need.

[apple1]

It seems to me that passing some laws requiring medical care for children up to and including taking them away from their parents for the duration of the care might be a good answer. The kids get the care, and the parents have an "out" of sorts, that they didn't mistrust God and take the kid to medical care, no, their hands were forced. When the kid is healthy, she returns.

What you describe here is extremely common practice in many states, cities, and communities. This certainly is the case where I live and work (I am a healthcare professional employed by a major pediatric hospital). The docs - for all practical purposes - have judges on "speed dial" and they regularly and routinely get court orders to do what is necessary to save kids' lives. Could a death like this still happen? Of course, yes, if there were a parent that kept their kids so completely under the radar such that their existence was not known to authorities. But, on the whole, the authorities here would not allow this type of child abuse to fly in the name of religious "exemption". It seems to me that Utah as a state is largely to blame for this mess. I mean, even the state of Washington is going after some of these groups who have splintered and moved there.

Slightly changing topic: I cannot even say how ANGRY this mess makes me. I'm a Mom and a Grandma, I work around other people's kids every day, it still bothers me to listen to them cry from something as routine as getting their blood drawn (and I've done my type of job for so many years that I am not far from retirement and I am still empathethic enough that the things I see every day still hurt to watch). I find the Utah mess incomprehensible. I can't understand parents and grandparents putting beliefs like this ahead of their kids' suffering and death. Can't wrap my brain around that at all.

[snarkopolis]

So God giving those ebil doctors the knowledge to heal the illness doesn't count? Sheesh! God only works the way THEY say he does. They are really thinning out the herd (of the stupid). Too bad it is at the expense of innocent children.

[Dysfundamental]

Rupturing the esophagus is something that can happen to children with untreated inflammatory digestive disease. Also to children with untreated bulimia.

Poor children. They deserved so much better.

[Joan of Snarc]

Dying from a ruptured esophagus sounds really, really awful. I didn't even know such a thing existed.

:cry:

[artdecades]

Well there was a tiny baby (and they can get sick quickly), a 2-year-old, and a 16-year-old who sounds like she had some other chronic condition that should have been treated months ago, which would make you more susceptible. So I don't think it's too unreasonable.

The rest - diabetes, prematurity, very small baby with 'intestinal blockage' - all things that would have prompted them to be sent to hospital if they'd seen any medical teams. The 15-year-old with the ruptured oesophagus is a bit weird, but again that would be very serious. So they all had properly serious things wrong with them, and all of them could potentially have been saved.

Your immune system doesn't need medical care to sustain it, but if you have other chronic conditions that are not treated properly it will leave you more susceptible. Poor nutrition might be a factor... and also the fact that these children will not have got the 'help' from early antibiotics that immune systems sometimes need.

According to the autopsies, which are posted with the article, the breakdown is as follows

Cooper - diabetes

Jackson - extreme prematurity and respiratory problems

Makenna - SIDS

Memphis - kidney failure

Pamela - pneumonia

Arrian - food poisoning leading to a ruptured esophagus

Garrett - pneumonia

Micah - sepsis caused by bowel blockage

Preston - pneumonia

Oliver - meconium aspiration syndrome

Rockwell - pneumonia

Teresa - asphyxiation

Pneumonia is 1/3 of the 12 deaths. And even more died from other respiratory problems.