Burden to Burundi, Zealous for Zambia

[Earthshine]

I just keep thinking that if John actually makes it over there, he will crash his plane on account of his stupidity. And then Esther and the kids will be stuck without a way back. They may actually fare better without John in charge, though... if they somehow make it back. I just don't see John being smart enough to plan for bad outcomes.

[Palimpsest]

Speaking in this case only for the church I was part of, though I doubt it was terribly different for similar IFB churches: I do not recall a missionary ever coming through and being asked for a business plan. There may have been one at some point and I was unaware since they always called a men's meeting to deal with most business and only brought it before the entire church for a vote once the men had already pretty much decided what was going to happen, but I don't think so. My dad was really good about coming home and giving the whole family the low-down on what the men's meetings had covered over dinner. Missionaries would just come and present, usually tell the church what % of funds they had raised, but not many even gave hard dollar amounts for what they would need month to month. There would usually be a Q&A session after the presentation, but it was typically used for people to ask questions like "what percentage of the population of Timbuktu is independent baptist?", "which missionary will you be partnering with when you get to the field?", "what's the craziest thing you ate on your initial trip over there?" etc. Softball questions, essentially. We pretty much just went on the assumption that good godly people wouldn't be raising more money than they truly needed.

I have no idea about Leininger, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if Schrader wasn't covering it by extra donations from churches. For missionaries that we knew well (like those we sent from our church, or that the pastor was friends with) or who were partnered with missionaries we knew well (like Bobby Bonner or his ministry), it wasn't uncommon for a prayer letter to come in with a specific need like that and the pastor to call a quick vote after evening church for us to send an extra $1,000 or sometimes $5,000 to that missionary over and above what we had already pledged to be sending per month. $15,000 is a hell of a lot of money, but it still only takes 15 IFB churches taking a quick vote to do some extra.

I would like to excuse myself for not seeing how foolish this all looks sooner by pleading that I was a sheltered homeschooled fundie daughter who never went anywhere but church until I left for college, but it still seems so patently, obviously silly now that I'm actually a little embarrassed looking back on it. But then I was "just a girl." What was the excuse for the men who were supposed to be leading? :?

Thanks, and no need to feel embarrassed at all. After all, klavierspieler, you got out! This is fascinating. It also explains a lot about how John has managed to get all this money with no accountability. I think he is probably sitting on a pretty good haul right now. His latest newsletter spends a lot of time trying to justify the extravagance of a new Troupie so perhaps someone is pointing out to him that this is not a good way of spending other people's money.

Just a couple more things:

It really seems to me that John has been essentially enabled throughout his adult life. He gets a new enthusiasm every couple of years and runs with it. Whenever he gets into trouble financially (and this seems to be a habit) someone has always bailed him out, possibly because they felt sorry for Esther and the kids. Previously it was family. Now it is various churches because he has really hit the gravy train with this missionary idea and living by faith alone. God is so good. :roll:

Don't shoot me for saying for this -- but I think John has to be a fairly charismatic and convincing preacher. I can't imagine how he still managed to snow contributing churches after the epic failure of the Burundi trip. He promised so much and came back with so little. I also think that he really does believe in the crap he preaches, but to me his extreme religiousity combined with his lack of resposibility almost borders on the pathological.

Looking at the blogs of other IFB missionaries in Zambia, they all seem to be doing something other than forcing their version of the Gospel down Zambian throats. They are running orphanges or schools, or starting clinics. They also seem more organized and experienced. Part of my utter contempt for John is that he has nothing to contribute except Bible tracts and "discipling." Even the weird David Rea apparently has farming experience, his children are older, and he seems to have a slightly more solid plan of running a evangelist radio station. John, not so much.

There is something very unstable about John Shrader. As I said before, his highs are too high and his lows are too low. Given his milieu and the missionary idolatry Klavierspieler describes, perhaps the churches don't see him as we do but think of him as an inspiring Visionary Man. That would be OK if he only had himself to risk, but he is dragging Esther and 8 (and soon 9) kids along for the ride and this could be disasterous for them. He is really riding for a fall because his planning skills are non-existant.

He may kill himself in that plane but I sincerely hope not. I can also see him having a total breakdown if his grandiose dreams about being a missionary in Zambia don't work out exactly as he hopes. If his God ever "fails" him I can see John turning into a gibbering weeping wreck.

[Arete]

I also think there is genuine, obviously untreated mental illness at play here. That and the fact that like Palimpsest has observed, he probably has a certain charisma that allows him to excel in grifting. No snark, he is better than Jim Bob Duggar and Gil Bates combined at the grift, and those two are masters.

My contempt for the Keller parents grows exponentially as this crazy spirals faster. Ester is their daughter for God's sake, and the mother of eight of their grandchildren. If it were me, I would go on my knees and beg my daughter to come back to my home with her kids even if that meant having to set them up in tents on the beach until something else could be worked out. They need to get away from that nutter because it is now a question of when, not if, someone is seriously injured.

Leave and cleave and no parental interference be DAMNED. And while I am here damning things, same goes for Visionary Man, Command Man, or any other man who does not put the needs of his children and his wife before his own.

[Evangeline]

Speaking in this case only for the church I was part of, though I doubt it was terribly different for similar IFB churches: I do not recall a missionary ever coming through and being asked for a business plan. There may have been one at some point and I was unaware since they always called a men's meeting to deal with most business and only brought it before the entire church for a vote once the men had already pretty much decided what was going to happen, but I don't think so. My dad was really good about coming home and giving the whole family the low-down on what the men's meetings had covered over dinner. Missionaries would just come and present, usually tell the church what % of funds they had raised, but not many even gave hard dollar amounts for what they would need month to month. There would usually be a Q&A session after the presentation, but it was typically used for people to ask questions like "what percentage of the population of Timbuktu is independent baptist?", "which missionary will you be partnering with when you get to the field?", "what's the craziest thing you ate on your initial trip over there?" etc. Softball questions, essentially. We pretty much just went on the assumption that good godly people wouldn't be raising more money than they truly needed.

I have no idea about Leininger, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if Schrader wasn't covering it by extra donations from churches. For missionaries that we knew well (like those we sent from our church, or that the pastor was friends with) or who were partnered with missionaries we knew well (like Bobby Bonner or his ministry), it wasn't uncommon for a prayer letter to come in with a specific need like that and the pastor to call a quick vote after evening church for us to send an extra $1,000 or sometimes $5,000 to that missionary over and above what we had already pledged to be sending per month. $15,000 is a hell of a lot of money, but it still only takes 15 IFB churches taking a quick vote to do some extra.

I would like to excuse myself for not seeing how foolish this all looks sooner by pleading that I was a sheltered homeschooled fundie daughter who never went anywhere but church until I left for college, but it still seems so patently, obviously silly now that I'm actually a little embarrassed looking back on it. But then I was "just a girl." What was the excuse for the men who were supposed to be leading? :?

I can concur with most of what you've posted, having been raised in a similar church. But, in my experience, people with 8-9 young children did not serve as missionaries, especially not in Africa. That's what I think is different, and scary, about the Schraders' plan. Almost all of their support will go to feeding and clothing their children, medical expenses, and travel halfway across the world. What's actually going to be left for ministry? Sending an 11-person family to be supported in Africa, when only one of them is capable of doing anything ministry-related (and in this case, even the one is questionable) is a really poor investment. I'm surprised this doesn't occur to these churches. I'm curious though. Did you know any mega-family missionaries? All of ours had a reasonable number of kids or their kids were grown.

[Justme]

What if Zambia says "no". He doesn't have a backup plan. What if they say he must have round trip plane tickets?

[gustava]

What if Zambia says "no". He doesn't have a backup plan. What if they say he must have round trip plane tickets?

That'll be the first time anyone told him no, so he'll hold his breath until he's blue.

[nellautumngirl]

I also think there is genuine, obviously untreated mental illness at play here. That and the fact that like Palimpsest has observed, he probably has a certain charisma that allows him to excel in grifting. No snark, he is better than Jim Bob Duggar and Gil Bates combined at the grift, and those two are masters.

My contempt for the Keller parents grows exponentially as this crazy spirals faster. Ester is their daughter for God's sake, and the mother of eight of their grandchildren. If it were me, I would go on my knees and beg my daughter to come back to my home with her kids even if that meant having to set them up in tents on the beach until something else could be worked out. They need to get away from that nutter because it is now a question of when, not if, someone is seriously injured.

Leave and cleave and no parental interference be DAMNED. And while I am here damning things, same goes for Visionary Man, Command Man, or any other man who does not put the needs of his children and his wife before his own.

Agreed. Before I knew about Esther, I liked the Keller parents, at least more than other fundie parents. I also thought the fact that three of their eight children left ATI spoke for them, in that they probably loved them too much to fully enforce the physical/spiritual abuse expected of Quiverful families.

But their decision to let John marry Esther could and probably will end disastrous for their daughter and grandchildren.

[SPHASH]

My contempt for the Keller parents grows exponentially as this crazy spirals faster. Ester is their daughter for God's sake, and the mother of eight of their grandchildren. If it were me, I would go on my knees and beg my daughter to come back to my home with her kids even if that meant having to set them up in tents on the beach until something else could be worked out. They need to get away from that nutter because it is now a question of when, not if, someone is seriously injured.

Leave and cleave and no parental interference be DAMNED. And while I am here damning things, same goes for Visionary Man, Command Man, or any other man who does not put the needs of his children and his wife before his own.

Agreed. Before I knew about Esther, I liked the Keller parents, at least more than other fundie parents. I also thought the fact that three of their eight children left ATI spoke for them, in that they probably loved them too much to fully enforce the physical/spiritual abuse expected of Quiverful families.

But their decision to let John marry Esther could and probably will end disastrous for their daughter and grandchildren.

I never liked Ma and Pa Keller, especially Pa. My dislike began when Pa insisted that Jesus used grape juice and not wine in the bible in the Smuggars engagement/wedding VSE. And how they claimed dating is just practice for divorce. That's when the red flags rose for me concerning the Duggars.

[Coconut Flan]

But, in my experience, people with 8-9 young children did not serve as missionaries, especially not in Africa. That's what I think is different, and scary, about the Schraders' plan. Almost all of their support will go to feeding and clothing their children, medical expenses, and travel halfway across the world. What's actually going to be left for ministry? Sending an 11-person family to be supported in Africa, when only one of them is capable of doing anything ministry-related (and in this case, even the one is questionable) is a really poor investment. I'm surprised this doesn't occur to these churches. I'm curious though. Did you know any mega-family missionaries? All of ours had a reasonable number of kids or their kids were grown.

I did a round of "ask the fundie neighbor" and she said absolutely not. That their church would not support a family like John's for any out of the country ministry. They send mainly older couples whose children are grown or in the states in boarding school for the last year or two of high school. They might consider a young couple with no children. She also said that they would have probably cut him from their support by now even if he were single over the airplane, flying lessons, and generally not meeting goals.

[anjulibai]

I did a round of "ask the fundie neighbor" and she said absolutely not. That their church would not support a family like John's for any out of the country ministry. They send mainly older couples whose children are grown or in the states in boarding school for the last year or two of high school. They might consider a young couple with no children. She also said that they would have probably cut him from their support by now even if he were single over the airplane, flying lessons, and generally not meeting goals.

Then who is giving him all this money??? What is he saying to them to make them donate???

[Justme]

I did a round of "ask the fundie neighbor" and she said absolutely not. That their church would not support a family like John's for any out of the country ministry. They send mainly older couples whose children are grown or in the states in boarding school for the last year or two of high school. They might consider a young couple with no children. She also said that they would have probably cut him from their support by now even if he were single over the airplane, flying lessons, and generally not meeting goals.

Besides the money, most of their time is going to be spent caring for their children. Especially during Esther's difficult pregnancies. Simple American task's such as cooking, washing clothes, grocery shopping are going to take much more time. They also have to spend a little time on educating their children. Even if Esther is able to manage everything without Johnny's help, she's not going to have time to "minister".

[countressrascal]

I asked a fundie co-worker about this and she said that her church would not support him, due to his large family, no skills and he does not have a plan to benefit the local community i.e. build school, medical clinic or help start a small business. She thinks that he is crazy.

Regarding resident VISA for Zambia, it takes about 6 months to get approved and according to a friend, Zambia government does require vaccinations for the VISTA.

[nellautumngirl]

I never liked Ma and Pa Keller, especially Pa. My dislike began when Pa insisted that Jesus used grape juice and not wine in the bible in the Smuggars engagement/wedding VSE. And how they claimed dating is just practice for divorce. That's when the red flags rose for me concerning the Duggars.

Rebekah Keller-MacDonald's husband mentioned this interview in a letter some years ago where he clarified some things about his family/the Duggars/TLC and said that TLC cut the interview with Pa Keller to make him look stupid, he said he said a lot of other stuff, but these were the only lines they aired. I believe it.

[thekate]

Rebekah Keller-MacDonald's husband mentioned this interview in a letter some years ago where he clarified some things about his family/the Duggars/TLC and said that TLC cut the interview with Pa Keller to make him look stupid, he said he said a lot of other stuff, but these were the only lines they aired. I believe it.

Not mutually exclusive.

[klavierspieler]

Don't shoot me for saying for this -- but I think John has to be a fairly charismatic and convincing preacher. I can't imagine how he still managed to snow contributing churches after the epic failure of the Burundi trip. He promised so much and came back with so little. I also think that he really does believe in the crap he preaches, but to me his extreme religiousity combined with his lack of resposibility almost borders on the pathological.

I think that's a very astute observation. Charisma was a common trait among the missionaries that came through our church, probably because it takes a certain type of person to do evangelism (it's essentially a sales job, really), but John seems to go over and above most of the missionaries I was acquainted with.

Evangeline, I knew two mega family missionaries, but neither were missionaries outside of the US. One was a "missionary" to Chicago and had like 10-11 kids (if I remember correctly), and the other had 8-9 and was a "missionary" to Mormons out west somewhere. The missionaries that came through going to other countries tended to be either young couples just starting deputation for the first time, with maybe with a toddler and baby (max), or else a middle age couple sometimes just starting out but mostly back on their second or third round of deputation with anywhere from 2-6 kids, or else older couples who had been on the field for a long time with grown kids coming back for their umpteenth round of deputation. So it sounds like my experiences with missionaries were very similar to yours and to the others who have posted.

[uber frau]

I know Mexico is closer and easier to get out of (for US citizens) but the Lockwoods are another example of a missionary megafamily. Like the Shraders, they don't actually appear to do a heck of a lot outside evangelising (and.supporting there own efforts-building their own church building etc). The Wallers are/were another example-granted, they went under the auspices of IBLP/ATI.

[formergothardite]

I think that's a very astute observation. Charisma was a common trait among the missionaries that came through our church, probably because it takes a certain type of person to do evangelism (it's essentially a sales job, really), but John seems to go over and above most of the missionaries I was acquainted with.

Evangeline, I knew two mega family missionaries, but neither were missionaries outside of the US. One was a "missionary" to Chicago and had like 10-11 kids (if I remember correctly), and the other had 8-9 and was a "missionary" to Mormons out west somewhere. The missionaries that came through going to other countries tended to be either young couples just starting deputation for the first time, with maybe with a toddler and baby (max), or else a middle age couple sometimes just starting out but mostly back on their second or third round of deputation with anywhere from 2-6 kids, or else older couples who had been on the field for a long time with grown kids coming back for their umpteenth round of deputation. So it sounds like my experiences with missionaries were very similar to yours and to the others who have posted.

I'm trying to remember if during my IFB days there were any missionary families with tons of kids and I can't remember any. Usually it was young couples or middle age couples who had grown children with the occasional family with one or two kids.

I do think that John must be very charismatic to be able to get this many churches to support his endeavor.

[Justme]

John Esther is going to write a book about "girding up his loins". (I just about spit my water all over my computer.) It's in the comment section of his public fb page regarding his email from brother Wilhite. The email talks about dresses for women.

Oh, John Esther, you are QUITE the expert!

[ILoveJellybeans]

John Esther is going to write a book about "girding up his loins". (I just about spit my water all over my computer.) It's in the comment section of his public fb page regarding his email from brother Wilhite. The email talks about dresses for women.

Oh, John Esther, you are QUITE the expert!

Hes going to start writing sex books?

Although I have to admit I am quite curious on how they manage to have sex with so many people crammed into a small space. Especially as they don't send the kids to school or anything.

[Justme]

Hes going to start writing sex books?

Although I have to admit I am quite curious on how they manage to have sex with so many people crammed into a small space. Especially as they don't send the kids to school or anything.

No, wearing pants! Though I would like to know how he and Esther keep their "business" private.

[slickcat79]

What I find so aggravating about him is that he seems to want a higher quality of life in Zambia as a missionary than what he would be able to provide for himself and his family at home. He doesn't seem to get the whole idea of missionaries who should be sacrificing to keep costs as low as possible.

He has spoken many times how tthings are much more expensive in Zambia than in America (ie mattresses, food etc) but i have noticed how the items that he calls expensive are items that are common in America (like matresses and cornflakes). For people who know this part of the world is everyone over there buying really expensive mattresses and food or is he going over there and wanting tp have the same items in Zambia and is thus paying a premium for me. I know that when I was living in China 12 years ago, the mattresses were only a thin matress (<1in thick, and was on a hard wooden platform (no side sleeping there). The only people who got the Western style mattress were westerners and wealthy people. Same thing with food. You could buy traditional food for cheap prices but if you wanted food that you could buy in North America they were expensive.

We've discussed that very thing before, I think resulting from John posting a list of common food/household items you'd buy in the US and their corresponding cost in Zambia. Most items were 3-10x more expensive...which is why the people in Zambia don't buy expensive imported "luxury" items like breakfast cereal and canned soda. They grow/raise their own food and eat what can be produced locally or nearby, and of course many of them don't get enough of anything to eat. But what most people consider to be chronic hunger and starvation, John considers a diet plan :roll:

[SPHASH]

I'm trying to remember if during my IFB days there were any missionary families with tons of kids and I can't remember any. Usually it was young couples or middle age couples who had grown children with the occasional family with one or two kids.

I do think that John must be very charismatic to be able to get this many churches to support his endeavor.

Remember John used to sell cars, Don't know how successful he was but that's probably where he learned to be slick.

[gustava]

I know Mexico is closer and easier to get out of (for US citizens) but the Lockwoods are another example of a missionary megafamily. Like the Shraders, they don't actually appear to do a heck of a lot outside evangelising (and.supporting there own efforts-building their own church building etc). The Wallers are/were another example-granted, they went under the auspices of IBLP/ATI.

Thanks for mentioning the Lockwoods. I couldn't remember the name. IIRC, they didn't go down there with a big family. Do you know what's become of them?

[formergothardite]

Thanks for mentioning the Lockwoods. I couldn't remember the name. IIRC, they didn't go down there with a big family. Do you know what's become of them?

They are still in Mexico and she recently had a post about how not being able to feed another child isn't a reason to stop popping out babies. :roll: Children are a blessing!!!!!!!!!!!

Women who receive government benefits there go to monthly meeting where they learn the horrible idea that they can make decisions for themselves and they don't have to do whatever their husband tell them to do. This is very, very bad according to the Lockwoods. The women are even told that they can get jobs without their husband's permission.

And there have been times when her kids have not had shoes because they couldn't afford them, but by golly she thinks kids are a blessing and she would rather have kids who don't have shoes than not have a bunch of kids.

She has also been criticized for not being able to help in the ministry because of all the kids she has but she says caring for the kids is serving the Lord and that is her ministry. I thought it was being a parent. Who knew I was a missionary. :think:

[scc12]

No, wearing pants! Though I would like to know how he and Esther keep their "business" private.

maybe it's the skirts ;)