What if the patriarch dies?

[Anxious Girl]

I doubt many fundies would think that far ahead. I seem to remember Anna T. finding it rather pointless to do so and that the prospect should not deter those under the all-holy patriarch to make any sort of provision, whether it be a degree or job training or so on. Were it to happen, they'd merely trust in God to see them through and all will be just peachy.

They may fare better for a time if they had a decent support system from local fundies or were able to obtain donations from the happy fun fundie world. Otherwise, I doubt whatever delightfully feminine cottage industry they had in place wouldsustain them. Should they go ahead and somehow manage to find outside employment, they could bill it as some sort of major noble sacrifice.

This. It would be hilarious if Christian fundies had a secret society to see who's gonna be the dictator of trueChristian!tmAmerica. :lol:

[tankgirl]

See, this is what is so funny and crazy about fundies, if you had a family business you wanted to see continue, you would teach your kids the business and have one or two waiting in the wings to take over. But these people are so busy raising mindless drones, it seems impossible to think of one of the kids taking over. I think a few of the women could take over some of the family structure, but some one is going to have to get a real job somewhere, in some of these families, and I don't think some of them would like that.

I wonder how far down some of the families might go though, to try and stay fundie at first without a head. I also wonder if in some families we could actually see some infighting amoungst brothers for the lead.

[themadapple]

This. It would be hilarious if Christian fundies had a secret society to see who's gonna be the dictator of trueChristian!tmAmerica. :lol:

Ha! They may be able to agree on one in the very beginning for the sake of an overriding common goal. But once the trueChristian!tmAmerica was established, they would likely split up into rival factions and engage in glorious battle for the REAL trueChristian!tmAmerica. Ah, the carnage...

[CrazySister]

Iirc, smugger talked about having to regain his authority (as opposed to getting it back automatically) over the siblings follwing Josie's birth. Specifically regarding Duggars, I imagine the J's would leave en masse.

[hoipolloi]

But yeah, have we seen any fathers of fundie families die? How do the families survive? And do they stay fundie? If we have not seen this in the past, do you feel like any of these families can maintain without the heads, or will they just walk away from fundism and look to the normal world to continue?

I doubt that many of these families can maintain without dickheadships. As an illustration, this woman's headship (lazydranch8.blogspot.com) died, leaving her with 6 kids. Here's her blog profile:

Married for twenty years to a hard working family man who was loved by many and loved us deeply. Widowed for two years until God brought another amazing man into my life who was willing to take on the task of loving an opinionated woman and her six children. Together we are building a new family...we have added a baby, a son-by-love, a daughter-by-love, and a grandbaby.

Haven't followed this blog closely but it looks when hubby #1 expired most of the kids were older although they had adopted 2 kids from Liberia a year or two before his death. Here's a snippet of her relationship with Hubby #1:

Right now I am pretty excited. I just got back from having dinner with my best friend at Panera Bread. He came home from work today and quietly asked if I wanted to go out to dinner tonight. What girl can refuse such an offer! We spent the evening talking and working on the Christmas gift list. He knows I need direction in this area. If it were left up to me we would end up over buying and over indulging our children. Thankfully hubbie has two feet solidly on the ground and is a great decision maker. By the time we were done with dinner I had already purchased all of the approved items on the Internet (free wi-fi is another great reason to eat at Panera). So, I am excited because it's all done...all of my Christmas shopping is complete!

[Emphasis added]

And here's the wind-up to the wedding with Hubby #2 who was a bachelor & younger than her at the time of their marriage:

Because I am under the supervision of the Elders of my church I felt it was only right that Phil contact my oversight Elder and let him know that he was interested in pursuing a relationship with me. But, I didn't want to tell him to do this...I was hoping he would think of it himself. The next day, without me saying anything (just praying), Phil contacted me by email and let me know that he had indeed let the Elders know of his interest. I was excited to see God work out this simple detail and was impressed with Phil. Something to remember...neither Phil nor I have ever done the whole courtship thing. And, for that matter, neither have our Elders. This is all new territory!

[Mythicwings]

Ick, so that idea was new to the elders, too? :lol:

Why isn't it demanded that she marry the husband's brother, or whatever the commandment is down the line of who gets the woman?

[lilah]

Kendal claims that in her church if a spouse dies the church supports the widow...for how long I wonder.

[GeoBQn]

And what would happen if there's a large number of new widows with hordes of children? Supporting them all could bankrupt a church quickly.

[themadapple]

And what would happen if there's a large number of new widows with hordes of children? Supporting them all could bankrupt a church quickly.

Sadly, I'm thinking a rise in spiritually cleansing fasts, extended camping vacations and redoubled self-sufficiency efforts.

[silverspoons]

I look at what happened to my husband's family and I worry so much for these large families if the father were to die. My husband upbringing before his dad died was strict mainstream lds because of where they lived (his dad had left FLDS but still had some of the ideas in him like build your own home that was half finished, work for yourself, no education needed simple dress).

My husband's parents married at 18. His mom didnt finish high school. His dad got trained hands on to be a mechanic. His mom (who had a rough childhood) was thrilled to be a stay at home mom. She had 13 kids when he died suddenly one night of a rare heart issue. My husband was the oldest male child at home and he was "dad" till his mom married a man whose wife died with 10 kids 3 years later. My husband was given no choice, give up the sport he loved, give up the BYU scholarship, he was the father. When she remarried it was not for love. His step father was a nice man but it was like a business partnership. Due to the ecomony and 23 kids they moved to a larger city. 6 kids stayed behind with my husband and refused to move to the city. They grew up in a remote rural area.This was the big turning point. The kids that moved to the big city got a huge shock of what the world was really like and the ones that stayed behind stopped attending church. A few years after the move his step father died. Things just went totally out of control for most of the kids. the had no coping skills and no higher education.

What bothers me after that the church community that they belonged to for 25 years did so little for them. All they really did was told my husband to man up at 16 and then helped his mom find a new husband a few years later. I have always wondered how the kids and grandkids and greatgrandkids would be today if his dad never died. With such little education the poverty cycle has hit a 3rd generation down and will likely be a 4th generation soon, with family members having kids so young. Sadly only my husband and one sister have broken free from the poverty/welfare/large family cycle out of 23! It is the saddest thing to watch as an outsider(and I tried to help to the first ten years but it keeps getting worse).

I have never bothered to look at the Jim Sammons seminar that JB Duggar loves so much. Does it encourage life and disability insurance? I know after what my husband went through a few days after I found out I was pregnant with DD he raised his life insurance policy as high as could because he did not want his child ever to live through what his siblings did.

[Mela99]

I have to admit I wonder what will happen if JB doesn't outlive Michelle. Seems unlikely with the hell she put her body through, but...

I can totally see Smugs immediately butting in, taking over the house, and moving Anna and the kids in, and booting out Michelle from the master suite.

[desertvixen]

I have to admit I wonder what will happen if JB doesn't outlive Michelle. Seems unlikely with the hell she put her body through, but...

I can totally see Smugs immediately butting in, taking over the house, and moving Anna and the kids in, and booting out Michelle from the master suite.

I can see him trying.... but I really feel like Michelle is more than a match for her oldest baby boy.

[Mythicwings]

I can see him trying.... but I really feel like Michelle is more than a match for her oldest baby boy.

What is the official line of authority there? He is grown so does he become the authority over her in that case? Man that would suck :lol:

Silverspoons that's awful :( So sad - yeah it's shocking that their church community didn't help and support them.

[bananacat]

These people tend to believe in prosperity gospel. They think that if they follow all of the correct rituals, God will reward them with power and money. So their plan doesn't involve a good education and teaching life skills; it only relies on making sure their kids continue to follow of the correct rituals. It's all very superstitious and it will spiral down really fast in less than a generation. Most adult QF fundies are converts and did not grow up in the lifestyle. It is a cult with a very high turnover rate.

[ShadowyOne]

I can see him trying.... but I really feel like Michelle is more than a match for her oldest baby boy.

To the first, it's no worse than what they've already done to Grandma Duggar... she has to have had her own money from her husband, but now she lives in a closet and is a laundry slave. To the second... yeah, Joshie boy is pretty much too lazy to try anything, though if his TLC $$$ dries up, I can see him taking desperate measures to continue it, so he doesn't have to do real work.

[Mythicwings]

These people tend to believe in prosperity gospel. They think that if they follow all of the correct rituals, God will reward them with power and money. So their plan doesn't involve a good education and teaching life skills; it only relies on making sure their kids continue to follow of the correct rituals. It's all very superstitious and it will spiral down really fast in less than a generation. Most adult QF fundies are converts and did not grow up in the lifestyle. It is a cult with a very high turnover rate.

How monumentally awful that these people don't want to provide for the future of their children, and keep bringing more in to undermine the stability of even their nuclear family. I told a friend of mine who I watched grow up then turn into a Catholic fundie whose father's family is buying land for when Obama tries to throw them into concentration camps, and she is of course anti-birth control - I told her that using birth control is an act of love for the children she does have, to be able to care for them. I hope something got through.

On the other hand, the high turnover rate that you mention bananacat is a good sign of hope for a lot of those kids, especially if they get out early enough to get to college and stuff before they have a bunch of kids of their own.

[infooverload]

When thinking of Gothard I would love to see the history of how he gained so much power and retained it. When we speak of fundie vs fundie lite I often wondered what is the line of delination between the two categories? Who in the orginization is going to replace Gothard and how much of an impact are his teachings affecting churches overall. There seems to be a movement in Evangical churches to "Trust God with Everything." Even in more liberal churches this is being pushed. Also I wonder how the war on terror is impacting religion. After all look at the Cold War and how it impacted religion. These are all things that rattle around my brain after a long day.

[Witsec7]

When thinking of Gothard I would love to see the history of how he gained so much power and retained it. When we speak of fundie vs fundie lite I often wondered what is the line of delination between the two categories? Who in the orginization is going to replace Gothard and how much of an impact are his teachings affecting churches overall. There seems to be a movement in Evangical churches to "Trust God with Everything." Even in more liberal churches this is being pushed. Also I wonder how the war on terror is impacting religion. After all look at the Cold War and how it impacted religion. These are all things that rattle around my brain after a long day.

Gothards political underpinnings go back to Richard Nixon. Read Jeff Sharlet's "The Family".

[Arete]

When thinking of Gothard I would love to see the history of how he gained so much power and retained it. When we speak of fundie vs fundie lite I often wondered what is the line of delination between the two categories? Who in the orginization is going to replace Gothard and how much of an impact are his teachings affecting churches overall. There seems to be a movement in Evangical churches to "Trust God with Everything." Even in more liberal churches this is being pushed. Also I wonder how the war on terror is impacting religion. After all look at the Cold War and how it impacted religion. These are all things that rattle around my brain after a long day.

In my mind, and everybody's border may be different, what sets off fundies from fundie lites is the withdrawal from society by the former. They homescool their children, often homechurch their children, and do not allow access to or participation in secular/pop culture. The mothers stay home and eschew birth control. It's all about isolation.

Fundie lites may have some of the same noxious views on salvation, but their children go to public school, their women often work outside the home, they go to brick and mortar churches and not home churches, they have at least some interaction with pop culture. Fundie lite families tend to limit their family size, but they do not broadcast particulars. Also, fundie lites do not take college or specialized training off the table for their children. Fundies feel even going for an eletrician's liscense will put their faith at risk.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I think similarly to Aretejo - the big factor for me in determining how "fundie" I'll rate a person is how far they separate from secular culture, and particularly how they limit secular education for their children.

Limiting secular education makes it really difficult for people to find a life outside their religious community, and harder to escape into the real world.

Of course, the more literal you insist certain scriptures must be, the more you must insist on separation and limiting access to information and secular education because otherwise the kids will find out the truth. Once you do that, so much is by necessity restricted - just listen to any mainstream non-fiction documentary or even just read informational signs at interesting places and you'll find things that hint at the real origins of the world, even if it's only a date somewhere.

[snickerz]

Why isn't it demanded that she marry the husband's brother, or whatever the commandment is down the line of who gets the woman?

Apparently this is still commonly done among the Amish.

[sparkles]

I think similarly to Aretejo - the big factor for me in determining how "fundie" I'll rate a person is how far they separate from secular culture, and particularly how they limit secular education for their children.

This would definitely put Steve Maxwell right at the head of the class.

[infooverload]

Thanks Experienced for the book suggestions. I guess what I find fascinating about the delination of fundie lite and fundie is the way one can switch from being one to the other. I wonder what triggers this. Has anyone seen this transition happen first hand? I would enjoy hearing first hand accounts of what things you noticed.