What if the patriarch dies?

[luckylassie]

I've always wondered what would happen to these large quiver families if the husband/bread winner suddenly died. What if they got sick and couldn't work anymore? My uncle was in Europe and got Necrotizing Fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria). I don't know what will happen to him but if he dies his kids will probably be in a bad situation.

[hoipolloi]

If they're fundie royalty, or favored by fundie royalty, they'll be given a bunch of handouts & support, including money, food, clothing, shelter, etc. An example of this is the Lee family, whose patriarch died in the April tornado hitting Alabama: visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2011/05/9450/

If you're not fundie royalty, or favored by them, I guess you're SOL.

[forever ago]

I've always wondered what would happen to these large quiver families if the husband/bread winner suddenly died. What if they got sick and couldn't work anymore? My uncle was in Europe and got Necrotizing Fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria). I don't know what will happen to him but if he dies his kids will probably be in a bad situation.

Theoretically the oldest son takes over, per the Bible's instructions, or the wife turns back to her father, or something.

Seriously, do fundies not think this shit through? Do they really think they live in a perfect world where there are no lethal or debilitating diseases, natural disasters, lunatics, or car accidents? How will the kids be provided for? How is a newly-widowed woman expected to raise like 6-8 kids by herself, on top of having no work experience, no job, no education, and home-schooling the kids?

[ChunkyBarbie]

There are fundie websites to help fundie widows, etc. If family is not able to help. I assume older sons, uncles and the grandfathers are supposed to step in and support the family. Honestly, I don't know. My working mother had a hard time supporting two children. I can't imagine what she would have done without a real education, life and job skills, and the knowledge that she could do it alone. If anything had happened to Jim Bob before TLC, Michelle and the kids would have been in big trouble. I don't think Michelle could work a fraction as hard as my mom.

[higgledypiggledy]

I know we think they are irresponsible in many ways, but it seems like they would carry hefty life and disability insurance policies. They go on and on and on and on and on about never accepting government assistance, how the wife must never work and being fiscally responsible. So I imagine part of that would be some sort of insurance. Perhaps they have an equivalent of Samaritan Ministries.

[Deleted12]

Ideally, the church will step in and support the family.

Doug has a whole CD on it that I listened to during a VERY long car trip once. x(

[Guest Anonymous]

There are fundie websites to help fundie widows, etc. If family is not able to help. I assume older sons, uncles and the grandfathers are supposed to step in and support the family. Honestly, I don't know. My working mother had a hard time supporting two children. I can't imagine what she would have done without a real education, life and job skills, and the knowledge that she could do it alone. If anything had happened to Jim Bob before TLC, Michelle and the kids would have been in big trouble. I don't think Michelle could work a fraction as hard as my mom.

And even jobs that involve asking "You want that supersized?" would be hard for her to get.

[GeoBQn]

I know we think they are irresponsible in many ways, but it seems like they would carry hefty life and disability insurance policies. They go on and on and on and on and on about never accepting government assistance, how the wife must never work and being fiscally responsible. So I imagine part of that would be some sort of insurance. Perhaps they have an equivalent of Samaritan Ministries.

I picture their beliefs being more in line with the Ned Flanders on the Simpsons. When the Flanders' house is destroyed by a hurricane, Marge asks Maude if they have home owners insurance. Maude Flanders replies, "We don't have insurance. Ned considered it to be a form of gambling."

[antifundie]

A family I knew had the father die. It was terrible.

They had three kids, and at the time of the father's death, I think the oldest was...18? 19? And he was basically told that he had to carry on for the family. No.

(I don't think he really took that to heart, btw, but that was the expectation--he was the man of the house)

[forever ago]

Ideally, the church will step in and support the family.

Doug has a whole CD on it that I listened to during a VERY long car trip once. x(

But what if they home-church too?

[liltwinstar]

God will just magically take care of them.

I think the "church help" thing is nice in theory - but it's a *huge* responsibility to care for another family, and I don't think it would be sustainable long-term. What if the kids were say, 5, 3, and 1 when their Dad died - would the church care for the mom and kids for 17 years (until the youngest one is 18)? I don't think so.

I think that, more likely, right after the death there would be a lot of support - help with bills, casseroles, etc etc. Then that would dry up over time, and the widow would be forced to repeatedly ask for help - at which point the "elders" would set her up with another man, just so that she wouldn't be a burden on the congregation any more. Or, if there were older sons, there would be an immense amount of pressure on them to care for the mom and younger siblings, possibly to the detriment of the sons living their own lives.

Also, there would be an expectation that if the widow was receiving financial help from the church, she would have to be "accountable" to them for every bit of her life - raising her kids, educational decisions, dating/courtship, etc etc. Honestly, I'd rather be on welfare or work two jobs than have someone scrutinizing my behavior to look for a reason to pull my only means of financial support.

I just don't see a good outcome for "the church" assuming full responsibility for all aspects of a person's life.

[Sola]

If you aren't one of Dougie's best pals, you're fucked basically. Especially if you don't have any grown up sons who can help.

[lilwriter85]

I agree with a lot of the solutions that have been said in this thread. Fundie royalty widows would have it made it right away and non royalty widows in the fundie world would seek help through websites, charities and churches and like others mentioned in some cases, the widow would paired up with new a husband.

I agree with liltwinstar churches would likely only give temporary help. Many churches are barely scrapping by in this economy. I remember when loony Jessica had her blog up, a few people asked her about what a woman with kids should do if her husband died and her suggestions was that churches should take care of them or the widows should remarry.

I really wonder how a fundie wife would support her family if the husband became severely disabled and couldn't work. My boyfriend's mom is an occupational therapist and she works at rehab facility and about half of her patients don't reenter the workforce later on. The people she has worked with are quadriplegics, people with brain injuries which either involve speech or physical disabilities. I have a hard time picturing a fundie family trying to survive financially with a quadriplegic father who will have massive medical bills for life. So I'm very curious to see how fundies would deal with situations in which the father/husband is alive but can't work.

[hoipolloi]

Does an outfit like Samaritan Ministries provide lifetime coverage in the aftermath of catastrophic illnesses or injuries?

[lilwriter85]

There are fundie websites to help fundie widows, etc. If family is not able to help. I assume older sons, uncles and the grandfathers are supposed to step in and support the family. Honestly, I don't know. My working mother had a hard time supporting two children. I can't imagine what she would have done without a real education, life and job skills, and the knowledge that she could do it alone. If anything had happened to Jim Bob before TLC, Michelle and the kids would have been in big trouble. I don't think Michelle could work a fraction as hard as my mom.

I think if something had happened to JB in the past before TLC, Michelle would have help with housing. She would have probably moved into one of Mary and Jimmy Lee's rental properties. People would have donated clothes and stuff to them. Maybe churches would have helped them. But I agree they would been trouble at some point.

[bananacat]

Seriously, do fundies not think this shit through? Do they really think they live in a perfect world where there are no lethal or debilitating diseases, natural disasters, lunatics, or car accidents? How will the kids be provided for? How is a newly-widowed woman expected to raise like 6-8 kids by herself, on top of having no work experience, no job, no education, and home-schooling the kids?

No, they generally do not think about these things. Planning for the worst means you are not trusting God. You just need to have faith and push back any nagging doubts that you might have. And on top of that, whenever something bad happens it's either seen as punishment or a test. So if a husband/father died, then it must be because his wife wasn't properly submissive or his kids were rebellious and God is punishing them. So you shouldn't help them and go against God's will, right? Or if you want to help them then you can use the excuse it's a test of faith. Of course none of this applies to fundie royalty, who definitely have hefty expensive insurance policies that the fundie peasants could never hope to afford. But yeah, generally planning for anything is seen as doubting God when you're in fundieland.

[bananacat]

I really wonder how a fundie wife would support her family if the husband became severely disabled and couldn't work. My boyfriend's mom is an occupational therapist and she works at rehab facility and about half of her patients don't reenter the workforce later on. The people she has worked with are quadriplegics, people with brain injuries which either involve speech or physical disabilities. I have a hard time picturing a fundie family trying to survive financially with a quadriplegic father who will have massive medical bills for life. So I'm very curious to see how fundies would deal with situations in which the father/husband is alive but can't work.

Vyckie at NLQ actually had to deal with this. Her husband wasn't actually sick (although he was blind), but he wasn't particularly suited to running a home business, which is the only acceptable career in QF. So Vyckie did massive amounts of work to create a magazine, and then made her husband CEO to look like he was really in charge. She wrote all the articles, did the layout, did the accounting, kept all the books, etc, and her husband was a glorified salesman. But he was technically at the top so all the work she did just counted as supporting her husband, who got all the credit.

[lilwriter85]

Vyckie at NLQ actually had to deal with this. Her husband wasn't actually sick (although he was blind), but he wasn't particularly suited to running a home business, which is the only acceptable career in QF. So Vyckie did massive amounts of work to create a magazine, and then made her husband CEO to look like he was really in charge. She wrote all the articles, did the layout, did the accounting, kept all the books, etc, and her husband was a glorified salesman. But he was technically at the top so all the work she did just counted as supporting her husband, who got all the credit.

I sort of remember reading about Vyckie's husband. I'm glad she divorced him.

[AnnoDomini]

Other fundies, or even not just fundies, but regular Christians. Say what you will about many of the troubling practices, but when my youngest brother was born a month early spending two or three weeks in the hospital several states away and insurance wouldn't cover it, the fundy and non-fundy Christians came together and sent us enough money to mostly cover the bill that we otherwise would never have been able to pay. I remember standing in the basement with the rest of the family, with the news that my baby brother was coming home, and us in a circle with my father praying for the baby's health, and for assistance paying the bill.

[tankgirl]

First I apologize I am on my Nook, so I will do my best to type coherently, while this thing makes me look like an idiot.

I was thinking the other day about all the heads of these fundie families and how, they all want to literally birth a Christian nation from their own (wives) loins, but I saw a flaw (one of so many), who is going to run the show in the future? What I see is a lot of fathers raising children with no sense of how to act as an adult, jobs are handout out, but not too many children being brought up as next of kin. Josh will not have the skills to maintain or hand out jobs to his siblings if JB kicked it tomorrow, poorer families, barely keep their own heads a float, how will the boys in these families be expected to lead, provide, and keep the whole family tied up in fundism?

Then you have the really nutty families like the Arndts, or the Seven Sisters, with nary a single "child" able to leave the nest, let alone run, the family, what becomes of them? And the Maxwells, without Steve to control every thought and breathe of that family, who could really keep them tied up as tight as Steve has.

Lastly what happens when Gothard kicks it? Who is going to keep that organization going, or will all the families just meander off until a new "prophet" raises up? Mostly I just wonder have we seen any fundie families where the headship died? If so how fundie did the family stay? How many of the families we watch here do you think will stay in the fundie sphere without their headships?

[tankgirl]

Eta the Nook only lets you go back so far without freaking out so sorry about the end of my post.

But yeah, have we seen any fathers of fundie families die? How do the families survive? And do they stay fundie?

If we have not seen this in the past, do you feel like any of these families can maintain without the heads, or will they just walk away from fundism and look to the normal world to continue?

[sparkles]

I was thinking along similar lines today, about what purpose in life will the women have once their children are grown and gone. The entire lives of these women focus on breeding, keeping house and homeschooling. So what's left for them when it's all over and done? The society the fundies are building for themselves seems to have little chance of long term survival. A win for us, I guess.

[CrazySister]

Sparkles is right about little long-term potential. The reality is they're NOT building sustainability within their framework, to our benefit. I think some of the women will keep going, but I'm sure there are plenty more who will say "screw that!" and move on to a more realistic way of life.

[themadapple]

I doubt many fundies would think that far ahead. I seem to remember Anna T. finding it rather pointless to do so and that the prospect should not deter those under the all-holy patriarch from their godly roles and lead them to obtain a degree or job training or so on. Were it to happen, they'd merely trust in God to see them through and all will be just peachy.

They may fare better for a time if they had a decent support system from local fundies or were able to obtain donations from the happy fun fundie world. Otherwise, I doubt whatever delightfully feminine cottage industry they had in place wouldsustain them. Should they go ahead and somehow manage to find outside employment, they could bill it as some sort of major noble sacrifice.

Edited for somewhat mindless word usage.

[Mythicwings]

Does anyone know what happened to Gothard's plans in the 90s (I think) to build a community in Arkansas? His followers don't have a coherent support system. I mean if you're a Hutterite or Amish, Mennonite, you know when you get old or have a tragedy or health crisis, there is this support system that kicks in. But the Gothardites don't have that, and of course claim to be against public assistance.