What will all the SAHDs do long term?

[AVENues]

5) hard to enslave a person who realizes they have options beyond blind obedience to a father or headship--if a person can earn their own living, they can leave if things get ugly.

Life saving wisdom, life saving words. I have dedicated my life to educating these things to people. This is the number one method psychopaths use - isolation. It comes hand in hand with belittling, disempowerment, humiliation, separation, taking the spine out of people, tricking them into the sense of insecurity, lowering their self esteem, etc. Once people realize that they are being mislead, no one can grab hold of them any longer because they will seek for a way out, stand up for themselves, reach out for help and eventually, they'll hit the road. If I can just bring it across to one single kid, one single person, I did not live in vain. :mrgreen:

[blisterine]

I suspect all the spinster SAHDs will have to open a chain catering to their frail mothers and their overworked uteruses. I hope Gothard doesn't read here, he will jump on this like a fat girl on a birthday cake (I'm overweight, so it's okay to say this!)

[Savoring Samsara]

See, I think that for some of these families, (the more well-known, revered ones such as the Bodkins, Mallys, etc.) the dads will realize that their daughters need to marry to avoid public embarrassment. They may let their daughters stay single into their late 20's or early 30's, but eventually I think they'll literally arrange a marriage so that the image of their perfect daughter entering the perfect marriage is not altered.

IAWTC. This might be happening in some families already. I don't know if anybody here ever followed the Wesco family - they are an IFB pastor's family in northern Indiana, with 8 sons and 2 daughters. Their blog went private a few years ago, when one of the sons was elected to the Indiana House of Representatives. I just recently discovered that their oldest daughter, who had been a SAHD for many years, was just married this winter at the age of 31. (Four of her brothers, including two younger than her, had married before her. Maybe there's hope for Sarah Maxwell yet!) Now the family's younger sister, who I think is in her late teens, is engaged as well. I really wonder what happened there and if the sudden pairing off had anything to do with the State Rep. son's burgeoning political career (he was just married too, not long after he was re-elected).

[mlady]

Once the big wigs die and royalty daddies die off it's going to be a free for all. Many men will step in but they aren't the same, so they will tweak things and carve out their own sub movements. Breaking apart will happen with some going this way, some going that, some floundering to figure out where they want to go.

I know some of these dads have been reluctant to give up "authority" over their daughters and only looking to men they can be "mentors" of (meaning they have "authority" over them as well but they try to give the appearance that dad is no longer in charge). Second and third gen headships won't know what to do really, they will make stuff up on their own and it will be crazy, I promise.

Wonder too if some of the older unmarried girls just don't stay single out of fear (which there are plenty) but in some small way are actually rebelling against the movement by not marrying or having kids of their own, guaranteeing this silliness dies with them.

[Bookworm]

I also like what another poster said about how the fundie system of marriage is odd because they're expected to "fall in love," but also do the daddy-approved courtship thing. I agree that actually falling in love with someone takes getting to know who they are, in an unsupervised way. I imagine the communications between the two people in a courtship are probably also read over by their parents, so maybe they hold some things back from each other. Also, sexuality isn't some impure, satanic thing as they believe, so they don't even get to talk about what they want or don't want in that arena, which IS an important part of a romantic relationship, unless the two partners are asexual. So they're not even allowed to touch base about what their likes or dislikes in the bedroom might be, well, since they're not allowed to even touch that topic with a ten foot pole until they're married.

I can actually see why some people choose not to actually have sex until they get married, but the less extreme people who are abstaining probably at least get to talk it over with the person they intend to marry before tying the knot. Also, they're probably allowed to at least cuddle with each other before getting married and figure the pheromones and chemistry are just right. Things like pheromones and sexual chemistry can't be explored from a distance of 5 feet, which is what it seems these courtship couples are maintaining.

I know some of their dads "let" them hold hands and sit closer once they're actually engaged. Imagine getting engaged, and you suddenly find your courtship partner has the funkiest halitosis EVER, and it's permanent. Seems superficial to dump a guy over chronically bad breath, but you ARE going to be living with this dude hopefully for life. I find my husband's smell overall to be wonderful, even when he's been out mowing the lawn and doing yard work for several hours and sweating his butt off. And I don't sense his "morning breath" when he wakes up, and overall when I smell his breath, it smells good to me. It's called being a chemical/pheromone match, and it IS important no matter what people say. Although these fundie types don't believe in teh ebil science or anything. They'd just be instructed to pray to God about it to help them become content with not liking their partner's natural scent. But still, imagine that the first time you really smell your partner, you're completely turned off by it, and it doesn't change no matter how impeccable their hygiene is, you just don't like their natural scent. Are you supposed to just get used to that?

Re: sexual compatibility/chemistry, I was taught that that was an ungodly excuse to get it on before marriage, that men and women physically fit together and that as long as you are both godly people you can make it work. I was in my 20s before I had ANY idea about what people actually meant by sexual compatibility. So yeah, there would have been no way for me to even know what to discuss before marriage to make sure the guy and I wanted similar things, even though my parents were much less strict and totally fine with me spending time with a guy alone.

[Peppercorn]

I think if my SIL did a lot of cooking, cleaning and child care then I would be happy to have her there especially if I was constantly pregnant. If you're raising and homeschooling 10+ kids then I think the extra help would be a "blessing" not to say there wouldn't be disagreements and fights but I think those are unavoidable when people are spending almost all their time together.

So these SAHDs could end up as "sister wives" to their own brothers. Ewww.

[laura oz]

Life saving wisdom, life saving words. I have dedicated my life to educating these things to people. This is the number one method psychopaths use - isolation. It comes hand in hand with belittling, disempowerment, humiliation, separation, taking the spine out of people, tricking them into the sense of insecurity, lowering their self esteem, etc. Once people realize that they are being mislead, no one can grab hold of them any longer because they will seek for a way out, stand up for themselves, reach out for help and eventually, they'll hit the road. If I can just bring it across to one single kid, one single person, I did not live in vain. :mrgreen:

:think: Something tells me you've got one hell of a story. If you've ever shared it, could you provide a link? If you haven't, I'm looking forward to you feeling comfortable enough to share it in the future.

[jrochest]

Maybe adult SAHDship is like entering a nunnery -- a respectable, godly alternative for a woman who doesn't want to get married. I really wonder how many of these daughters want to marry, since marriage in this model means submission, perpetual pregnancy and constant labor. Their parents chose each other and the quiverfull life voluntarily, but the SAHDs know they have no choice in either their partners or their lifestyle, and they know exactly what's involved. They may not really be that interested in the contract -- especially the more high-profile ones like the Botkins.

The elder Duggar daughters will not be allowed to marry: their labor as nannies/housekeepers is essential to the baby production line. The middle ones are probably expendable.

There's a real irony to the fact that these people kick out as many kids as possible but then block marriages for their children.

[JenniferJuniper]

Maybe adult SAHDship is like entering a nunnery -- a respectable, godly alternative for a woman who doesn't want to get married. I really wonder how many of these daughters want to marry, since marriage in this model means submission, perpetual pregnancy and constant labor. Their parents chose each other and the quiverfull life voluntarily, but the SAHDs know they have no choice in either their partners or their lifestyle, and they know exactly what's involved. They may not really be that interested in the contract -- especially the more high-profile ones like the Botkins.

The elder Duggar daughters will not be allowed to marry: their labor as nannies/housekeepers is essential to the baby production line. The middle ones are probably expendable.

There's a real irony to the fact that these people kick out as many kids as possible but then block marriages for their children.

The difference being that the nunnery will always be there. Daddy will not.

As for the Duggars, the baby production line is effectively shut down. Josh and Anna are apparently leaving town, so unless one is sent to be a nanny for them the services of the older daughters won't be needed. The youngest girls will turn 4, 5, and 6 this year. Michelle is turning 47 in a few months, so unless they adopt (I don't see it happening, but you never know) there will be no more babies or toddlers for the older daughters to tend to.

The housework is probably getting much worse, though, what with the howlers moving into their teens and no one moving out, and I don't even want to think about that dynamic. Can you imagine Jessa's attitude towards picking up after her teenage brothers? The TTH is likely to become a more and more unpleasant place to live as the years roll on. Boob will need to start marrying off his older daughters once the show ends or a few of them may find ways to leave on their own. They aren’t naive little fundie girls in frumpers anymore.

[salex]

So these SAHDs could end up as "sister wives" to their own brothers. Ewww.

I have always said I needed a sister wife who loved housework and hated sex.....but I am here to tell you that even if she hadn't had a career her whole life and an MBA, my Sister in law would not be my choice to come live in my house full time.. and we basically get along!

[lizziesmom]

What a crappy future. Having to live with your brother and his wife in their home. Basically, you're just a guest in their house, depending on their kindness for the rest of your life.

This is pretty much the norm for unmarried women prior to the 20th century. Fundies are trying to reset the clock which would be okay if they weren't trying to force their beliefs on everyone else.

[Marian the Librarian]

Joining this discussion late - there had been almost total silence from Botkin headquarters for months. A-S and E haven't updated their blog since their predictably gloomy and incomprehensible Valentine's Day post; Daddy Geoff has had nothing to say at Western Conservatory since last December. And in FJ's baby-watching thread, it's been rightly observed that the "visionary" daughters are looking sad and tired and a little worse for wear in pics taken at the recent Family Economics conference. Things in that neck of Tennessee's woods are looking more depressing by the day.

[debrand]

Joining this discussion late - there had been almost total silence from Botkin headquarters for months. A-S and E haven't updated their blog since their predictably gloomy and incomprehensible Valentine's Day post; Daddy Geoff has had nothing to say at Western Conservatory since last December. And in FJ's baby-watching thread, it's been rightly observed that the "visionary" daughters are looking sad and tired and a little worse for wear in pics taken at the recent Family Economics conference. Things in that neck of Tennessee's woods are looking more depressing by the day.

How old are the Botkin sisters now? Their lives are probably even worse because they are intelligent and have been told how super special that they are. At some point they have to realize how much potential that they let slip by.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Become depressed?

Cause I think thats what most people would do ifthey were 30 and not allowed to date, work, leave home or do anything other than be an unpaid nanny/maid

[moonbeam59]

This is pretty much the norm for unmarried women prior to the 20th century. Fundies are trying to reset the clock which would be okay if they weren't trying to force their beliefs on everyone else.

Agreed. How depressing. :angry-banghead:

There is nothing wrong with being a daughter, wife, mother. It's obviously a wonderful thing to be a teacher, nurse, or midwife. But for those to be the only choices open to a woman... how terribly and needlessly limiting. And that's IF you are able to marry and/or are permitted to seek an education and career. Who could want the life of a SAHD for their child?

[docmom]

What's going to happen to the SAHD without brothers?

[RachelB]

This is pretty much the norm for unmarried women prior to the 20th century. Fundies are trying to reset the clock which would be okay if they weren't trying to force their beliefs on everyone else.

Unmarried women of some social strata, right? Working-class women have always worked. And as docmom points out, a woman within a patriarchal system who outlives her adult male relatives (or doesn't have brothers to begin with) is up a creek.

[samurai_sarah]

Unmarried women of some social strata, right? Working-class women have always worked. And as docmom points out, a woman within a patriarchal system who outlives her adult male relatives (or doesn't have brothers to begin with) is up a creek.

Plus, depending on your faith, there are the aforementioned nunneries. Without a vocation, it may not sound all that appealing, but quite often nuns had rather more liberty and education than married women. That isn't to say that it was great without an actual calling, but it was an alternative.

[JesusFightClub]

Have you read Vanity Fair (er, the book? :embarrassed: )

Miss Jane Osbourne, the unmarried Osbourne daughter in a patriarchal regime.

Read it and weep, Botkinettes.

[Change]

I wonder at what point the patriarchs will realize that they have a failure on their hands. If I subscribed to Duggar beliefs, I'd be thinking something needed to change if I were Ma or Pa Duggar. They only have, for at least appearance purposes, one successful launch. If they are committed to many of the goals of the organizations they support, then they should be getting at least the daughters married.

Although I feel for the daughters, especially Sarah Maxwell, I'm glad to see that many won't be birthing dozens of babies. I don't know if they have the logic to see the disconnect in the theory of their belief systems and how it's not working in actual practice although I hope that they do. They may use the standard lines of not enough faith in the Lord, not praying properly, etc. cover the failures .

For the Quiverful movement to survive, they are going to have to go the other way of "closed systems" and turn to arranged marriages [like in some parts of Orthodox Judaism, fundamentalist Islam, etc]

I mean how do they expect the girls to meet husbands? It's a weakness in the system. They will either deal with it, or their movement will die out a la the Shakers.

[nokidsmom]

I mean how do they expect the girls to meet husbands? It's a weakness in the system. They will either deal with it, or their movement will die out a la the Shakers.

Personally, I hope they don't deal with the SAHD issue and it does help it to die out. Yes, it's a pretty sad life outcome for the SAHDs but honestly (and I say this at the risk of sounding mean) it's their problem and the fewer people in the movement, the better.

[AVENues]

Have you read Vanity Fair (er, the book? :embarrassed: )

Miss Jane Osbourne, the unmarried Osbourne daughter in a patriarchal regime.

Read it and weep, Botkinettes.

I'll finally download it as an ebook and sit it through after your recommendation. Thank you JFC! (I always read your name as Jesus * Christ but no offense, that's just my dirty brains.)

[Mela99]

Jesus will come flying down from Heaven sprinkling magic love dust on the girl's father and give him a hat full of golden scrolls baring the name of her intended. Obviously.

[salex]

Personally, I hope they don't deal with the SAHD issue and it does help it to die out. Yes, it's a pretty sad life outcome for the SAHDs but honestly (and I say this at the risk of sounding mean) it's their problem and the fewer people in the movement, the better.

:agree:

Exactly. Life isn't always fair for any of us, but if their parent's hubris and evagelical zeal turns into a huge failure, that slows or prevents these people from actually taking over and forcing their bullshit on the rest of us.

A few young beauties drying up and whithering on the vine is better than hundreds of girls in the next generation being forced into religious slavery to husbands.

[Talitha Cumi]

I would bet good money that a lot of the SAHDs have vulvar pain disorders due to the fear of sex being drilled into them.

*raises hand*

Intercourse hurts. Every time. Luckily, my husband actually loves me, and is happy to work around this problem rather than insisting on his manly patriarch rights to my body. (Side note: applying the word patriarch to my husband is kind of hilarious. He is the most non-patriarch of them all.)